Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire

[brompton rail]

Not on the 57 route are you? I caught that last week and it astonished me how busy it was for the first hour or so after passes were permitted!

I think it's a wise choice they're making, most rail routes are duplicated by buses and the core routes are well covered. I can't comment on FreeBee services as I don't know the routes but I imagine most passengers would be the mobility impaired(who would presumably have a pass anyway).

No, the unreliable and frequently late 81/82!

 

[bb21]

It is an unfortunate fact that the UK has never had a transport policy that actually recognises the vital role that public transport plays.

It is regrettable that transport has often been a political football.

I agree. Many of the discussions on this forum would not exist had successive governments recognised the fact that public transport, especially buses, should not be the poor man's choice and only considered by people as a last resort.

Without wanting to go into a political debate as to whether it is right to cut transport while still paying out cast sums of money in overseas aid, military action in other parts of the world, and other types of expenditure, I can't answer those points!

Don't get me started on that. :-x

Suffice to say that public transport should not be in the position as to eb described as unaffordable. As a civilised country, like most of our comparators in Europe, it should not even be questioned (in an ideal world)!

Sadly, I agree, but it should not be the case that it is either or. An enlightened government, of whatever colour should be able to see that. However all governments tend to have overlooked the importance of affordable, efficient public transport, unlike the majority of Europe, where it is regarded as a vital element of economic prosperity.

In the UK, the concept of public services was jettisoned a while ago. Now everything has to make a profit or risk being deemed unaffordable, regardless of how essential services in helping the wider economy. We have become such a nation of bean counters that everythign now has to be quantified to the nth degree before it can be shown as being worthwhile.

Meanwhile, no such scrutiny seems to exist on interfering with the affairs of other sovereign states.


Exactly, and this is a debate that is best avoided if possible!


I agree with this.

I agree with all what you are saying here. We can only live and hope.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It may be the 'correct' terminology as defined by the laws and organisation, among bus drivers, passengers and the general public I have only heard it referred to as an OAP pass, it wouldn't surprise me if the average person was not aware that disabled people can be issued them.

I fear that you are correct in what you say as the use of this pass seems to be colloquially referred to that which you state in your posting. I have heard this term used many times in Macclesfield bus station over the years. It was just me, being me, when I made my original posting, which brought out a James Moriarty posting response to my Sherlock Holmes "alter ego" self, as I knew it would. However, my back and shoulders are still strong enough to aid my fight against "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" as the Bard would most likely to have said.

My wife and I are perfectly capable to pay for bus rides, not being remotely financially berift, should Cheshire East Council deign to provide a bus service to serve the remote rural area where we live, but this will never be the case. We live about two miles away from the nearest bus stop and even further away from either Prestbury or Adlington (Cheshire) railway stations. But that is our own choice to live where we do in the type of aged property that we enjoy. This is why we use the solitary 4 x 4 that we use, since the stroke that I suffered in 2012 means that I am now unable to drive.

 

[david16]

I agree. Many of the discussions on this forum would not exist had deregulationve governments recognised the fact that public transport, especially buses, should not be the poor man's choice and only considered by people as a last resort.

Places that were initially cut off by commercial operators since deregulation it would have been wrong for these places to have remained permanently without a service, even a tendered one provided by the local authority.

If there had only been commercial services being the only type bus services around since deregulation forcing people without a bus service 6+ miles away from their place of work to have to invest in far more expensive unaffordable private motoring to get there and back would have been ridiculous.

Tendered bus services provided by the local authorities up and down the uk have proven to be lifeline to many but also socially necessary as well. Just because a bus route doesn't generate a big profit does not mean there should be no bus at all on the route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the matter that I raised in the FIRST part of my posting, which was made in answer to a contention made in a posting by Arctic Troll about the use of the ENCTS pass being to assist with local transport "in your local area".

The policy intention and the legislation are two entirely different things.

The policy intention was to enable local mobility. The policy intention of allowing national travel was to get rid of boundary problems. The only way of enabling that policy intention was to have a national scheme.

That doesn't change the fact that you using it on your holidays has a cost attached to it. That cost is met by the residents of the area you go on holiday. That cost is, quite simply, that tendered bus services are cancelled because all the money is being spent on commercial services that would run anyway.

I think your example of your holidays proves my point rather well. You made journeys that you wouldn't have otherwise made simply because somebody else was paying, and that somebody is the residents of West Sussex with reduced council services and reduced tendered bus services.

 

[transmanche]

The policy intention and the legislation are two entirely different things.

The policy intention was to enable local mobility. The policy intention of allowing national travel was to get rid of boundary problems. The only way of enabling that policy intention was to have a national scheme.

I wonder why didn't they make it a UK-wide scheme, to get rid of all boundary problems?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wonder why didn't they make it a UK-wide scheme, to get rid of all boundary problems?

Transport is a devolved responsibility, so they couldn't impose a scheme on the devolved nations.

 

[transmanche]

Transport is a devolved responsibility, so they couldn't impose a scheme on the devolved nations.

But there is a mechanism (a legislative consent motion) which allows the UK parliament to legislate on a matter with the devolved institutions approval.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think your example of your holidays proves my point rather well. You made journeys that you wouldn't have otherwise made simply because somebody else was paying, and that somebody is the residents of West Sussex with reduced council services and reduced tendered bus services.

May I kindly correct a misapprehension that seems to have arisen from an earlier posting that was made. We had not used the 4 x 4 on that particular 10-day holiday as there were five full day excursions in the eight days that we were at the Royal George Hotel at Bognor Regis that took us to five different areas of both West and East Sussex (two days being used in travelling to and from our boarding point). Those five full-day excursions would have been included in the costings of the holiday and therefore paid for by my wife and myself.

From the remaining three days left free for us to use as we wished, we spent two of these in Bognor Regis walking around, visiting the local parks, etc. It was just one solitary day when we made the visit to the National Trust property at Petworth House that we used our ENCTS passes on the Stagecoach service 60 to Midhurst and the Compass Travel service 96 from there to Petworth, plus the services used on the journey home.

So did we do wrong in using those ENCTS passes on that particular day ? Are my wife and I now to be stricken by pangs of conscience that we had imposed a financial burden of the good citizens who are resident in that area ?

May I cite a reverse view of matters for your consideration. Towards the end of last year, we had driven to Buxton where there were, that day, a large number of elderly people from the Hereford area who were staying in the Ashbourne area at their hotel. All of these, from engaging them in conversation, had indeed used their ENCTS passes to travel on the scenic 442 bus route from Ashbourne to Buxton (and for the return journey) to enjoy the delights offered by Buxton. Should I have remonstrated with them to say that they were imposing a burden on the residents of that part of Derbyshire, which your posting on the matter on the single day that we did the same in West Sussex would seem to suggest.

The ENCTS pass remains valid for use in the time period so stated and the use of this was within the law and was not a fraudulent use of a travel pass in any way whatsoever.

I have taken the opportunity to speak to the relevant body this afternoon in West Sussex and have been totally reassured that we had not committed any offence in their area on the solitary day that we used our ENCTS passes in their administered area.

 

[Deerfold]

So did we do wrong in using those ENCTS passes on that particular day ? Are my wife and I now to be stricken by pangs of conscience that we had imposed a financial burden of the good citizens who are resident in that area ?

The ENCTS pass remains valid for use in the time period so stated and the use of this was within the law and was not a fraudulent use of a travel pass in any way whatsoever.

You have not broken any laws, plain or implied. But what you have done highlights faults in the way the system was implemented.

If all areas got similar numbers of visitors from other areas it'd all be fine as the same number of visitors from County X would use buses in County Y as vice versa.

However because some areas attract many more visitors than others there is an unfair burden imposed on their councils.

 

[david16]

You have not broken any laws, plain or implied. But what you have done highlights faults in the way the system was implemented.

If eas got similar numbers of visitors from other areas it'd all be fine as the same number of visitors from County X would use buses in County Y as vice versa.

However because some areas attract many more visitors than others there is an unfair burden imposed on their councils.

I hate the likes of the Daily Mail and Daily Express demonising people who are legally using their passes as though they are villians of the piece helping to bankrupt the government.

 

[bb21]

I hate the likes of the Daily Mail and Daily Express demonising people who are legally using their passes as though they are villians of the piece helping to bankrupt the government.

They are not bankrupting the government, and as long as people use their passes legitimately then there is nothing wrong with that.

But it is an undeniable fact that certain councils are heavily burdened financially by the introduction of ENCTS. This is not about demonising people. This is fact. It is not the fault of the pass-holders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They are not bankrupting the government, and as long as people use their passes legitimately then there is nothing wrong with that.

But it is an undeniable fact that certain councils are heavily burdened financially by the introduction of ENCTS. This is not about demonising people. This is fact. It is not the fault of the pass-holders.

A point was made to me with regards of certain areas such as Cornwall having to bear the cost of elderly holidaymakers using their ENCTS passes issued by other areas.

That is the undeniable fact that those elderly holidaymakers stay at hotels in the resorts of Cornwall and shop at the local retail establishments, visit places of interest and eat at restaurants and cafés. This is all extra revenue coming into those Cornish holiday areas.

I have been asked by the personage in Cheshire East Council who is a friend of our family to whom my wife and I have been discussing this particular thread and the question that she asks that I put to forum members who contribute to the current debate on this thread is....
"What do the forum members think of how much would be the average cost of travel that is used in a week by ENCTS pass holders from other areas when compared to the average weekly amount amount of money spent by these same elderly holidaymakers in the resort areas on retail spending, admission fees to places of interest and meals in restaurants and cafés where they spend their holidays ?"

 

[ECML180]

"What do the forum members think of how much would be the average cost of travel that is used in a week by ENCTS pass holders from other areas when compared to the average weekly amount amount of money spent by these same elderly holidaymakers in the resort areas on retail spending, admission fees to places of interest and meals in restaurants and cafés where they spend their holidays ?"

In my eyes it's a question of net benefit: do ENCTS pass holders bring more in to a resort's economy than they take out(in terms of subsidy paid to operators). My answer? Yes. But then you must consider if this is coincidence or cause, these people would almost definitely holiday to the same places without the pass, as these elderly holidaymakers by and large travel on package holidays on coaches. If the ENCTS passes were withdrawn, all likelyhood is that these people would take holidays in the same places.

If there are significant flows of passengers using passes(eg. Hotel to Town Centre, or to tourist attractions) then I have no doubt the operator who brought them down could add on a day trip, charging perhaps £20? This leaves the difference in being that it costs the passenger for the travel, benefits of that being less subsidy required from local council. Dis-benefits being that it may deter a small number from making the trip. Also, as the operator who makes the journey is the 'foreign' coach operator not a local bus operator, the money leaves the area instead of staying.

I don't see any chance of resorts losing business if passes were withdrawn as they have no effect on people's choices where to travel to. I've worked in a Bus/Coach Company's office during university holidays and not once has a potential customer come in asking about a holiday and specifically asked if there's scope or opportunity to use an ENCTS pass, they're more concerned about the quality of the accommodation, how many years we've been to that hotel for, if it's the usual driver and how good the day trips are.

 

[dggar]

I don't see any chance of resorts losing business if passes were withdrawn as they have no effect on people's choices where to travel to. I've worked in a Bus/Coach Company's office during university holidays and not once has a potential customer come in asking about a holiday and specifically asked if there's scope or opportunity to use an ENCTS pass, they're more concerned about the quality of the accommodation, how many years we've been to that hotel for, if it's the usual driver and how good the day trips are.

They would already know the answer so why would they need to ask.

 

[brompton rail]

Just to bring this topic back to its origins.

South Yorkshire agreed yesterday to make the recommended changes .... Including-
Withdraw Sheffield and Rotherham Freebee buses
Withdraw Doncaster's Park and Ride service 638
ENCT passes will be only valid 0930 to 2300 M-F (Sat & Sun anytime)
Passes valid on buses and Supertram only, no longer valid on trains in SY or on Northern to WY.

The changes are due in April 2014 (beginning or end isn't yet clear).

The financial savings will allow supported bus services to continue for next 4 years, I believe.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The ENCTS pass remains valid for use in the time period so stated and the use of this was within the law and was not a fraudulent use of a travel pass in any way whatsoever.

What on earth are you going on about?

The ENCTS pass is valid on any bus in England after 0930. You have used the card exactly according to the rules.

My point is that the rules are wrong and ENCTS should be abolished. It's not that you're wrong for using a card you're legally entitled to in a way that you're legally entitled to do.

That is the undeniable fact that those elderly holidaymakers stay at hotels in the resorts of Cornwall and shop at the local retail establishments, visit places of interest and eat at restaurants and cafés. This is all extra revenue coming into those Cornish holiday areas.

That only works as a point if you're claiming that "elderly holidaymakers" only go to Cornwall because of the ENCTS. Are you seriously trying to claim that the ENCTS is the sole difference between a "elderly holidaymaker" going on holiday and staying at home? Are you seriously arguing that the withdrawal of ENCTS would mean that people would stop going on holiday?

My view is the holidaymakers would be there regardless, so there is no "extra revenue". Abolish ENCTS and the only difference is that people would be paying for their own bus fares, instead of using a bus pass that passes the financial burden on to the people who live there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That only works as a point if you're claiming that "elderly holidaymakers" only go to Cornwall because of the ENCTS. Are you seriously trying to claim that the ENCTS is the sole difference between a "elderly holidaymaker" going on holiday and staying at home? Are you seriously arguing that the withdrawal of ENCTS would mean that people would stop going on holiday?

Nothing of the sort. The matter that was put to me by the person referred to in my posting was that of a comparison in financial terms that any ENCTS card holder anywhere on holiday where this is valid in England, outside their own card-issuing area (Cornwall was used by her as an example of a holiday county) would have benefited financially from free bus travel which then would be set against the spending money they would have spent in the holiday area where they were staying.

On a personal note, when we were in West Sussex, the solitary day that we used our ENCTS passes would equate to less than £18 for the two of us, basing on individual single journey prices, whereas we spent over £500 in local shops, restaurants and places of interest in the eight of the ten days that we were based there that all went into the local economy. West Sussex did quite well from our holiday visit there when you look at those figures.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Firstly, you'd have spent that £500 regardless of whether you'd had an ENCTS card. Secondly, the council will get a small percentage of that £500 back in business rates, but that's all.

I don't have any issue at all with people using their ENCTS card in accordance with the rules. If I had one, I'd use it too. It's not about making people feel guilty for using the card.

As it stands, just under 25% of bus operator income (outside London) comes from concessionary scheme funding. For both the bus operators and the councils, we need to consider whether that is sustainable in the medium or long term. I really don't think it is, and given the Treasury recently stuck a 20% cut on BSOG, clearly they don't either.

 

[tbtc]

Just to bring this topic back to its origins.

South Yorkshire agreed yesterday to make the recommended changes .... Including-
Withdraw Sheffield and Rotherham Freebee buses
Withdraw Doncaster's Park and Ride service 638
ENCT passes will be only valid 0930 to 2300 M-F (Sat & Sun anytime)
Passes valid on buses and Supertram only, no longer valid on trains in SY or on Northern to WY.

The changes are due in April 2014 (beginning or end isn't yet clear).

The financial savings will allow supported bus services to continue for next 4 years, I believe.

Thanks for taking this thread back on topic!

Yes, fairly predictable/ depressing news. A few thoughts:

I wonder whether this'll affect Northern Rail's income, as their subsidy payments won't take the loss of this income into account?

In a way, pensioners won't be too affected by the loss of the FreeBees, as there are plenty of commercial services along the same routes that they can still get free travel on (though these may be a little slower now).

No point in trying to charge a small fee on the Sheffield FreeBee for non-pensioners (like they tried in Leeds) as there's already a 50p flat fare for short "city centre" journeys on First services.

Whilst First won't be too badly affected by the loss of a three-vehicle contract (given the size of Olive Grove depot), this is worse news for Powells (operators of the Rotherham service), who mainly rely on school contracts (with a few commercial services slotted around them - e.g. the X7 from Maltby to Sheffield gets buses into the city in the morning peak ready to work duties to Sheffield schools). Can't be easy being a smaller operator in this day and age.

As it stands, just under 25% of bus operator income (outside London) comes from concessionary scheme funding. For both the bus operators and the councils, we need to consider whether that is sustainable in the medium or long term. I really don't think it is, and given the Treasury recently stuck a 20% cut on BSOG, clearly they don't either

I don't think that its sustainable either, and its worth reminding some people that that figure will be much higher in some "tourist" areas where a disproportionate amount of pensioner travel takes place (which the local council has to fund).

Trying to ignore all of the emotional blackmail stuff about whether pensioners should feel guilty (pity me, etc), I think that someone needs to have a serious look at how much we should fund and how we spread that burden (e.g. if ENCTS is a national Government scheme then national Government should fund it - we don't expect the local council in Blackpool/ Scarborough/ Falmouth to pay the pensions of all pensioners in the area, so why do we expect them to pay for all of the bus journeys of all pensioners in the area?)

 

[Deerfold]

Trying to ignore all of the emotional blackmail stuff about whether pensioners should feel guilty (pity me, etc), I think that someone needs to have a serious look at how much we should fund and how we spread that burden (e.g. if ENCTS is a national Government scheme then national Government should fund it - we don't expect the local council in Blackpool/ Scarborough/ Falmouth to pay the pensions of all pensioners in the area, so why do we expect them to pay for all of the bus journeys of all pensioners in the area?)

Central government has been offloading responsibility services to local councils for some years - things like social care. Which then compete for the same pool of cash which central government isn't increasing.

 

[bb21]

That is the undeniable fact that those elderly holidaymakers stay at hotels in the resorts of Cornwall and shop at the local retail establishments, visit places of interest and eat at restaurants and cafés. This is all extra revenue coming into those Cornish holiday areas.

No one is disputing that, and I agree that the holidaymakers probably make a positive contribution to the economy of the destination as a whole.

However what we have to consider is how much of that benefit filters through to the local authorities' books who are the ones that have to fund the additional expenses, not the central government, not the local businesses. As I mentioned earlier, another issue with these unquantifiable benefits is that they cannot be budgeted for, whereas money must be set aside to fund the additional expenses. This is not going to be good news for those local authorities who are already feeling the pinch, and the only things that will suffer in turn is local council services.

Perhaps these local businesses that benefit from the elderly tourism market should be asked to contribute towards the cost of funding this scheme? I wonder how that could be implemented.

I have been asked by the personage in Cheshire East Council who is a friend of our family to whom my wife and I have been discussing this particular thread and the question that she asks that I put to forum members who contribute to the current debate on this thread is....
"What do the forum members think of how much would be the average cost of travel that is used in a week by ENCTS pass holders from other areas when compared to the average weekly amount amount of money spent by these same elderly holidaymakers in the resort areas on retail spending, admission fees to places of interest and meals in restaurants and cafés where they spend their holidays ?"

I think you and I are both correct in our own ways, but we are arguing about completely different things. I would love to consider the whole thing in the wider picture of local economics. The problem is that the funding situation as it stands at the moment is not really compatible with this sort of view, hence why I would like to see a reform of the scheme. The objective of the reform is not to see how this benefit could be withdrawn from current pass-holders, but how the funding mechanism could be better managed and money more appropriately distributed. As I have noted in an earlier post, I doubt that in the grand scheme of things the extra funding providing pass-holders with the ability to travel free in other areas of the country is going to be that much, but this is of no help to those local authorities who are struggling to cope with the added expense of hundreds and thousands of tourists from other areas if the funding situation does not change because their bills have to be paid now.

I appreciate however that given the attitude of the current government, it is possible that any deviation from the status quo will like see the benefits curtailed in one shape or another. It can be an easy prey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to bring this topic back to its origins.

South Yorkshire agreed yesterday to make the recommended changes .... Including-
Withdraw Sheffield and Rotherham Freebee buses
Withdraw Doncaster's Park and Ride service 638
ENCT passes will be only valid 0930 to 2300 M-F (Sat & Sun anytime)
Passes valid on buses and Supertram only, no longer valid on trains in SY or on Northern to WY.

The changes are due in April 2014 (beginning or end isn't yet clear).

The financial savings will allow supported bus services to continue for next 4 years, I believe.

Delighted for the holders of the ENCTS passes who still have retained the acceptance on their passes on the Supertram and their Monday to Friday time of bus travel acceptance is still one to be pleased about

 

[radamfi]

I agree that the existence of free bus travel does not significantly influence where people go on holiday. The pass probably affects day trips to nearby towns a lot more.

In Scotland the National Entitlement Card gives free travel on long distance coaches so there must be people making extra trips, say from Glasgow to Inverness, because it is free.

In Ireland, over 66s even get free travel on trains nationwide, and are allowed to travel in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.

 

[tbtc]

In Scotland the National Entitlement Card gives free travel on long distance coaches

It's certainly had an affect upon services to "Pensioner Friendly" destinations, like the way that the Glasgow to Largs has increased significantly since the national card came in.

Or how Fishers Tours "maximised their potential" / "milked the system" by marketing "Wallace Arnold" style services as normal bus services (and therefore ones which OAPs could travel for free on).

IMHO its had less of an impact upon commercial bus services south of the border (though obviously some impact upon council revenues and therefore their ability to provide tendered services in places like North Yorkshire).

 

[Greybeard33]

Although, under the business rates retention scheme, local authorities now raise more of their revenue locally, they still receive Revenue Support Grant from central government. This includes a Relative Needs Amount, calculated according to complex formulae that assess the relative cost to individual authorities of providing many local services, including concessionary travel - see the DCLG Practitioner's Guide, Annex B, p28.

If the ENCTS were abolished, no doubt central government would take the opportunity to adjust this element of the Relative Needs formula, and it seems to me that it is by no means certain that there would be a net financial benefit to those authorities currently burdened by hordes of pass-wielding visitors.

 

[34D]

Can ENCTS holders from outside SY use the supertram for free?

Regarding the suggestions to limit areas, what will happen is passengers will apply for a second ENCTS pass. I have several regular passengers who have told me they have two cards, either through ambiguous boundaries, owning holiday chalets, or downright fraud in the application.

We had a thread elsewhere on this forum from someone who obviously now lives in Herts who has retained his Freedom pass.

A nationally-ADMINISTERED scheme could stop this.

As always though, it is hard to set an area where people 'should' be allowed to travel.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Can ENCTS holders from outside SY use the supertram for free?

Yes. It is (was) only the rail concession that was limited to SY-issued concession passes.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can ENCTS holders from outside SY use the supertram for free?

Regarding the suggestions to limit areas, what will happen is passengers will apply for a second ENCTS pass. I have several regular passengers who have told me they have two cards, either through ambiguous boundaries, owning holiday chalets, or downright fraud in the application.

We had a thread elsewhere on this forum from someone who obviously now lives in Herts who has retained his Freedom pass.

A nationally-ADMINISTERED scheme could stop this.

As always though, it is hard to set an area where people 'should' be allowed to travel.

Yes, I *think* this is the only UK tram system to allow ENCTS holders from other areas to travel free. Is there another ?

Robert

 

[transmanche]

Yes, I *think* this is the only UK tram system to allow ENCTS holders from other areas to travel free. Is there another ?

Blackpool Trams do - although they don't allow free travel in the evening on certain dates during the illuminations.