Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire

[transmanche]

Are there not cross border arrangements for _all_ areas along both sides of both english-welsh and english-scotland fronteirs?

I don't know - but definitive information seems generally hard to find. Northumberland CC is good and shows clearly which routes into Scotland that accept ENCTS passes for journeys that start or finish in Northumberland.. Chester West & Cheshire imply that only ENCTS passes issued by the 'Cheshire Consortium' are valid on cross-border journeys between Cheshire and Wales. Whilst Shrophshire CC is completely silent on the matter.[*]


* Although my Mum believes it's valid on cross-border journeys to Welshpool, but not for the return!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm amazed that those with Freedom Passes in London get free travel on all services! That must cost an absolute fortune yet meanwhile other systems are struggling... I think that's the issue here certain areas getting pretty much all travel for free and others having to pay normal adult fares.

The Freedom Pass scheme is operated by London Borough Councils. In 2011/2012 it cost them £296 million to operate - approx £239 per card issued.

Of the £296M, £210M is spent on TfL buses, £66M on TfL rail (LU/LO/DLR/Tramlink) and £18M on NR journeys.

The legal basis for the Freedom Pass is different to the ENCTS elsewhere; by law the Freedom Pass must offer free travel on all TfL services; except for 04:30-09:30 Mon-Fri. TfL (but not NR) accept the passes at other times by arrangement - it's estimated that in 2011/2012 this costed TfL about £15M.

 

[overthewater]

A zonal system would also be pointless as most journeys right now are just made within a certain area. It's not often you see a stray pass holder for a different area - I've only seen 1.

Just because you've only seen one does not mean its it doesn't happen.

 

[34D]

Just because you'll only seen ONE does not mean its it doesn't happen.

I drive buses in Yorkshire, and see _lots_ of foreign passes. I used to do a list, but stopped when I realised I'd probably seen every county going.

Yesterday for example included one from Staffs and one from Merseyside - and probably a few more that were in cases.

 

[madannie77]

Are there not cross border arrangements for _all_ areas along both sides of both english-welsh and english-scotland fronteirs?

The Cumbria County Council website suggests England only. I am sure have seen reference somewhere to it being valid as far as Gretna, but I can't find that info at the moment.

Scottish pass holders can travel to Carlisle for free.

http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2632

 

[pemma]

In England the DoH state that 90% of all prescriptions are free. (Not just pensioners and children, but pregnant/new mothers, people on various benefits and those with certain medical conditions, etc also get free prescriptions.)

OT but most doctors use common sense when issuing prescriptions. A 30 year old in employment who needs antibiotics and painkillers will be prescribed the antibiotic and told to buy the painkiller as it's cheaper, while a 70 year old may get the same antibiotics and have the painkillers added to their prescription. That then distorts figures like the one you've quoted.

 

[ModernRailways]

Just because you'll only seen ONE does not mean its it doesn't happen.

I wasn't saying it doesn't, just passing comment that I hardly saw one. It will depend on the buses you use. City centre buses travelling between tourist spots are more likely to see other areas ENCTS passes than a local bus service which doesn't really go anywhere that tourists would want to go too.

 

[overthewater]

I wasn't saying it doesn't, just passing comment that I hardly saw one. It will depend on the buses you use. City centre buses travelling between tourist spots are more likely to see other areas ENCTS passes than a local bus service which doesn't really go anywhere that tourists would want to go too.

The passes I keep seeing are not on buses going to tourist spots.

I see plenty of passes used for visiting friends, family, going shopping.

 

[ModernRailways]

The passes I keep saying are not on buses going to tourist spots. I see plenty who are visiting friends, family, going to the shops in the area others.

But how far away from their passes issued area? Are they going to the next county and are they travelling the length of Britain?

One must also remember the fact that if these people didn't have their passes the chances of them visiting friends, family etc. are minimal which means they would be stuck in a house or care home. I'm surprised none of the political parties have blamed the passes on people living longer to be honest because people are staying active for longer because they can go places!

 

[overthewater]

But how far away from their passes issued area? Are they going to the next county and are they travelling the length of Britain?

In Scotland the council areas are smaller in size.

Even if we went back to the pre-1996 councils, ie Fife, Tayside, Lothian, Central, you would still spot a lot of cross boundary journeys taking place.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it not the case that only HM Government (and not local authorities) can amend the terms of universal coverage of the ENCTS pass in England, despite all the postings upon this thread that discuss its usage in limited geographical areas of England ?

 

[34D]

Is it not the case that only HM Government (and not local authorities) can amend the terms of universal coverage of the ENCTS pass in England, despite all the postings upon this thread that discuss its usage in limited geographical areas of England ?

The 09:30 - 23:00 weekday England usage, yes.

Cross border, pre 09:30, trains, etc are all local decisions

 

[overthewater]

Is it not the case that only HM Government (and not local authorities) can amend the terms of universal coverage of the ENCTS pass in England, despite all the postings upon this thread that discuss its usage in limited geographical areas of England ?

Can anyone explain to me why the Governments of NI, Wales and Scotland, pay and control the scheme****, yet in England the local councils have to pay for it?

****Councils only issues the passes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 09:30 - 23:00 weekday England usage, yes.

Cross border, pre 09:30, trains, etc are all local decisions

Perhaps my posting that stated "coverage" should have been a tad clearer to confirm that I meant geographical areas, not time restrictions.

 

[cjp]

I

The Freedom Pass scheme is operated by London Borough Councils. In 2011/2012 it cost them £296 million to operate - approx £239 per card issued.

Of the £296M, £210M is spent on TfL buses, £66M on TfL rail (LU/LO/DLR/Tramlink) and £18M on NR journeys.

The legal basis for the Freedom Pass is different to the ENCTS elsewhere; by law the Freedom Pass must offer free travel on all TfL services; except for 04:30-09:30 Mon-Fri. TfL (but not NR) accept the passes at other times by arrangement - it's estimated that in 2011/2012 this costed TfL about £15M.

Declaration of interest I have Freedom Pass.

Would it not be an option to charge say 10p or 20p a journey ? Such a charge would not be a huge deterrent but would go some way to mitigating the cost to local authorities. FWIW in Hong Kong there there is no free travel for the elderly but the PAYG flat charge of 2HKD is very little compared to the full cost of thejourney and such discounted travel is open to anyone no matter where they live.
Of course once such a charge was instigated I could see rising to level when it was a deterrent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course once such a charge was instigated I could see rising to level when it was a deterrent.

From what I heard from a friend in Greater Manchester, the pre-0930 fare that was charged in their area for holders of ENCTS passes went from 40p to 50p to 80p to full fare.

Cynical old me can see something similar occurring in the situations after 0930 that you describe....

 

[transmanche]

Declaration of interest I have Freedom Pass.

Would it not be an option to charge say 10p or 20p a journey ? Such a charge would not be a huge deterrent but would go some way to mitigating the cost to local authorities.

I believe that would require a change in the law. (I think it's the Greater London Act 1999 which protects the Freedom Pass, although that minimum is currently exceeded by also allowing free travel between 04:30 and 09:30 Mon-Fri. So without a change in the law, I guess that would be the only travel that TfL could charge for.)

 

[ModernRailways]

From what I heard from a friend in Greater Manchester, the pre-0930 fare that was charged in their area for holders of ENCTS passes went from 40p to 50p to 80p to full fare.

Cynical old me can see something similar occurring in the situations after 0930 that you describe....

That's exactly would happen if the councils weren't controlled as strictly. Instead of 'normal' fare rises the ENCTS pass would rise leaving the 'normal' fare at the same rate, and over time this would eventually mean full fare payable.

If a small fee was to be introduced it would have to set in stone, that under no circumstances would the fare payable go up unless something major occured. The fee could only be reduced. So a maximum fare of say 50p could be set with local areas being able to say that travel is 40p or even free.

I personally think something like the following should be put in place if anything really was to change. For your local area/PTE you get free travel on all buses, other transport may be subject to normal adult fare or discounted rate - such as the T&W Metro's £25 Gold Card (local people), £35 (foreign county people). When you leave your area to go for a trip somewhere you must pay a fee of £20 to gain free travel, you also gain the benefits that local people in that area have. This is essentially an add-on kind thing whereby you pay for the actual areas you want to go to. The fee lasts for a year or two (could be extended at discretion of councils), and there may also be no fee if a council so decides.

 

[Deerfold]

e following should be put in place if anything really was to change. For your local area/PTE you get free travel on all buses, other transport may be subject to normal adult fare or discounted rate - such as the T&W Metro's £25 Gold Card (local people), £35 (foreign county people). When you leave your area to go for a trip somewhere you must pay a fee of £20 to gain free travel, you also gain the benefits that local people in that area have. This is essentially an add-on kind thing whereby you pay for the actual areas you want to go to. The fee lasts for a year or two (could be extended at discretion of councils), and there may also be no fee if a council so decides.

That sounds like it'd cost as much to administer as it'd bring money in.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not as though there are many 10's of 1000's of OAP's right across the uk are going on lengthy day trips going through several counties or districts by bus for free for most of the year every single year.

I suggest you look at the loadings on the 843 from Leeds and York to Scarborough and the X93 from Teesside to Whitby and Scarborough. At weekends, and weekdays in the summer, the bus can be 90% full of people all using ENCTS cards. Transdev Yorkshire Coastliner had to buy extra double deckers to cope with the demand. I'm not using hyperbole to say I've caught the X93 before and been the only one on board who's paid for a ticket.

The old system- a flat fare or concessionary rate for elderly or disabled people- was perfectly fair. I wouldn't expect a pensioner or disabled person to pay full whack. But the simple fact is that the current system is unaffordable and unsustainable, just as it has been ever since Gordon Brown introduced it as a voter bribe in 2008.

As we're already seeing in places like Northumberland and Cumbria and even in urban Tyne and Wear, tendered bus services are being withdrawn due to the sheer cost of the ENCTS cards being used on commercial services. People in many areas are losing their bus services entirely because councils are forced to stump up for the ENCTS instead. I'm sure people in these situations would rather pay 33% or 50% of the standard adult fare and have a bus than have a free ENCTS card that they can't use.

As for the age old whinge that "I've paid tax my whole working life, therefore I should get free bus travel (even though I didn't before Gordon Brown bribed me for votes in 2008)", I've paid income tax all my working life too, and my working life will be a damn sight longer to boot.

 

[transmanche]

But the simple fact is that the current system is unaffordable and unsustainable

The question we should be asking ourselves is why is it "unaffordable and unsustainable"? Being that London Councils manage to fund a scheme that is far more generous than ENCTS - how do they manage it where other councils cannot?

 

[Deerfold]

The old system- a flat fare or concessionary rate for elderly or disabled people- was perfectly fair. I wouldn't expect a pensioner or disabled person to pay full whack. But the simple fact is that the current system is unaffordable and unsustainable, just as it has been ever since Gordon Brown introduced it as a voter bribe in 2008.

"The old system" varies wildly depending where in the country you were from free travel on all modes of public transport to nothing at all - but usually only within your local council area. West Yorkshire had a small fee for bus or train travel (and earlier had free travel at times with half fare in the morning or evening peak) - and arrangements with South Yorkshire and Greater Manchester for pass acceptance there (with payment of their reduced fare - on cross border journeys both fares were payable).

There was then an interrim period where free travel was allowed in your local area - but a lot of cross-border agreements were lost. Then the post 2008 system.

 

[bb21]

One thing I never quite understand about ENCTS is why a Tyne & Wear, Medway, London, etc, passholder should be given free travel in Blackpool, Bournemouth, Brighton, etc, funded by the respective local council-tax payers.

What is the real purpose of this pass? To allow people to engage in their local community and making essential travel easier, or to make it cheap for them to holiday at seaside resorts?

 

[transmanche]

or to make it cheap for them to holiday at seaside resorts?

Which attracts holidaymakers, which increases local trade, which boosts local employment, which benefits society generally.

Just a thought...

 

[Greenback]

One thing I never quite understand about ENCTS is why a Tyne & Wear, Medway, London, etc, passholder should be given free travel in Blackpool, Bournemouth, Brighton, etc, funded by the respective local council-tax payers.

What is the real purpose of this pass? To allow people to engage in their local community and making essential travel easier, or to make it cheap for them to holiday at seaside resorts?

That's a good example of the inconsistencies that exist in England. I don't know of any similar examples in Wales, where the concessionary travel scheme is administered in a different way.

As far as I can see, there are several desirable objectives for the scheme. This includes

- to reduce car usage, particularly where the driver may be more prone to accidents
- to allow people with limited mobility and health conditions the ability to travel (whether that is to the hospital shops or for a holiday/break)
- to help prevent medical problems by encouraging qualifying persons to remain active and be able to socialise by utilising transport to get out and abput rather than be stuck indoors and prone to the likes of depression and loneliness.

 

[talltim]

Please desist from the use of "OAP" pass, as the correct definition is "ENCTS"..:roll:

ENCTS is more than 'OAP', it's all concessions

 

[Tetchytyke]

The question we should be asking ourselves is why is it "unaffordable and unsustainable"? Being that London Councils manage to fund a scheme that is far more generous than ENCTS - how do they manage it where other councils cannot?

London is very much a special case, because of the way the transport network in London is structured and funded. All fares are managed and collected centrally in London, and the costs of the Freedom Pass scheme are taken into account within TfL's overall budget. Essentially fare-paying passengers are subsidising the Freedom Pass scheme within London.

Elsewhere in the country this doesn't happen. In some areas there may be a multi-operator ticket (e.g. System One, Network One, MetroCard) and in some areas there isn't. Even where there is a multi-operator ticket, this is not managed by the council. In any case, many commuters will still purchase an operator-specific day or weekly ticket. The operator will retain the whole of this money, and then make invoice reimbursement under ENCTS separately. The councils don't have an income stream from commuter tickets to offset the cost of the ENCTS, so the cost of ENCTS has to come out of their transport budget. This means that councils can subsidise non-commercial bus services (e.g. dial-a-ride or "social" bus routes) or pay ENCTS, but not both. As an aside, single fares on many commercial routes are now so high because of the way ENCTS reimbursement is calculated.

The current system is badly thought out and badly flawed, simply because the Labour government rushed it through as an election bribe. Free travel in a local area is probably reasonable, free travel nationwide is certainly not.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...but then, as soon as you limit it to a "local area" you will always encounter what are (on the face of it) perfectly good reasons for an extension outside some aribitrary boundary.

The easiest "local area" to define is, of course a county. Which makes for ease of administration as well. But is it "right" that someone who lives but three miles from a decent town (for shopping) is precluded from travelling there for free because there is an invisible line between their home and that destination - and instead either pays or travels to another town that's twelve miles away to do their shopping?

Oh...and when their relative is taken to hospital, and the closest one is, again, just over that invisible and arbitrary line, they pay a small fortune in fares every time they want to visit.

The current system is badly thought out, primarily because of its funding arrangements whereby (afaik) funding is based on resident population with no account taken of tourism flows; so tourist hotspots do indeed suffer from a funding shortfall vs. less "desirable" places.

 

[transmanche]

London is very much a special case, because of the way the transport network in London is structured and funded. All fares are managed and collected centrally in London, and the costs of the Freedom Pass scheme are taken into account within TfL's overall budget. Essentially fare-paying passengers are subsidising the Freedom Pass scheme within London.

Is that so? As I noted earlier, London Councils fund the Freedom Pass to the tune of £296M a year (in 2011/20122) - a cost of £239 per pass issued - of which almost £280M goes to TfL.

I accept that certain concessions; such as free child travel, the Over 60s pass (which gives Freedom Pass-like concessionary travel to those aged 60+ who are not old enough to qualify for a Freedom Pass), and discounted travel for Students/Apprentices/Veterans/certain Jobseekers/etc are funded from TfL's overall budget. (And I think the free peak-time travel for all Freedom Pass/ENCTS pass holders is funded this way too.)

In any event, my original question was a bit of rhetorical one. That fact that TfL runs the majority of public transport in London means they can fund these extra concessions (the ones over and above the statutory Freedom Pass concessions) and that the £296M cost to London Councils is less than it might cost in an unregulated non-London bus environment. The answer to my rhetorical question is that (as a start) all PTE areas should have their bus services operated in the same way as in London.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is that so? As I noted earlier, London Councils fund the Freedom Pass to the tune of £296M a year (in 2011/20122) - a cost of £239 per pass issued - of which almost £280M goes to TfL.

You may well be right. I thought it went to TfL as part of the overall funding they send to TfL, in the same way the councils send funding to a PTE. I'm probably wrong.

In any event, my original question was a bit of rhetorical one. [snip]
The answer to my rhetorical question is that (as a start) all PTE areas should have their bus services operated in the same way as in London.

That I'd agree with.

A big part of the issue is that, outside London, the ENCTS is reimbursing a commercial operator for a commercial fare, but in a way that reimburses the difference between the number of fares received against the number of fares they would have received had ENCTS not existed.

 

[transmanche]

You may well be right. I thought it went to TfL as part of the overall funding they send to TfL, in the same way the councils send funding to a PTE. I'm probably wrong.

The figure I quoted came from a London Councils presentation.

Again in London things are done differently. London Councils don't fund TfL as in PTE's elsewhere. The part that comes from central Government (that elsewhere is given to the local council to give to the PTE) is (I think) given directly to TfL. Other money comes from the GLA, which can add a precept onto the council tax directly.

It's a historical reason (dating back to the abolition of the GLC and the 'nationalisation' of LTE into LRT) that the Freedom Pass is funded by the councils rather than the GLA/TfL.