Cambrian hourly service consultation

[Gareth Marston]

I suspect that is more a signalling matter at Salop, and not anything more sinister.

Both the arriving cambrian and the holyhead train are in platform 4 at the same time most of the time as the doors open on the cambrian arrival they close up the holyhead train for departure

 

[merlodlliw]

Both the arriving cambrian and the holyhead train are in platform 4 at the same time most of the time as the doors open on the cambrian arrival they close up the holyhead train for departure

That is correct, colleagues speak of this at every SCRUA(RUG) meeting,the Cambrian arrives, passengers run up the same platform to the Wrexham train only to find the doors closed or closing in their faces.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is correct, colleagues speak of this at every SCRUA(RUG) meeting,the Cambrian arrives, passengers run up the same platform to the Wrexham train only to find the doors closed or closing in their faces.

Bob

I've managed it by being on the front door of the arriving cambrian and legging it, the two trains draw up on the same platform within 10 yards of each other, some staff do look out for anyone but this is more of an individual decision than a company one.

Is this the worst missed connection on the UK rail network?

 

[The Planner]

Shrewsbury is a 5 minute connectional allowance in planning, so the Cambrian train is either going to have to arrive at xx.19, which it can't as the Holyhead does that or the Holyhead arrives later around the xx.23 area. Unless the hourly timetable seriously re-jigs the way it works, one train is going to sit waiting somewhere on the approach?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shrewsbury is a 5 minute connectional allowance in planning, so the Cambrian train is either going to have to arrive at xx.19, which it can't as the Holyhead does that or the Holyhead arrives later around the xx.23 area. Unless the hourly timetable seriously re-jigs the way it works, one train is going to sit waiting somewhere on the approach?

The Holyhead's use to sit at Shrewsbury for around 10 minutes when the SPt was first introduced but I'm told the North Wales AM's complained about this even though just a few of them were "delayed" at Shrewsbury on a Thursday evening.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If it is extra 8 trains, it is a huge step forward. If a couple of them each way could start/terminate at B'ham Intl it would be even better.

At least we've passed the 'not enough stock' and 'infrastructure not ready' arguments.

Actually, we haven't got a resolution to the rolling stock shortage problem. There are ERTMS 158s on routes that don't need ERTMS, but the franchise needs to take on some additional stock in order to release those 158s for the Cambrian, or some passengers are going to suffer for it.

As for Birmingham, I personally would hope/expect that the additional Cambrian workings would be formed off the join/split at Shrewsbury on the Birmingham-Chester/N.Wales services.

 

[transmanche]

As for Birmingham, I personally would hope/expect that the additional Cambrian workings would be formed off the join/split at Shrewsbury on the Birmingham-Chester/N.Wales services.

But wouldn't that would require (two or three?) more units than a simple Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth shuttle?

 

[Rhydgaled]

But wouldn't that would require (two or three?) more units than a simple Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth shuttle?

I don't think so. It's two units whether you go Aberystwyth to Birmingham or just Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury (in fact, the latter might require more units than the former). I think I've probably said this before but here goes:

The current Birmingham-bound Cambrian trains arrive Shrewsbury at xx:26 (odd hours) and the return leg departs Shrewsbury for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli at xx:27 (odd hours). That'd be a very tight turn-round if they didn't run through to Birmingham (hence why it might need more units than if you run through to Birmingham).

Meanwhile I believe the services from Chester/Wrexham currently arrive Shrewsbury as a single 2-car class 158 most of the time. A second 158 is attached at Shrewsbury and the train departs for Birmingham at xx:33 (even hours). That seems to be perfect timing for the 158 which attaches to come off a Cambrian working. In the other direction, the trains for Chester/Wrexham drop off a 158 at Shrewsbury at arround xx:19 (even hours), again suitable to run through to the Cambrian in the other hours from the existing trains.

Therefore, unless all 4 coaches on the Birmingham service go through to Wrexham/Chester, the rolling stock is already there between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. You just need to find two extra 158s to extend the current strengthening portion through to Aberystwyth.

Either way, still need to find two additional trains from somewhere to release the two 158s.

 

[transmanche]

The current Birmingham-bound Cambrian trains arrive Shrewsbury at xx:26 (odd hours) and the return leg departs Shrewsbury for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli at xx:27 (odd hours). That'd be a very tight turn-round if they didn't run through to Birmingham (hence why it might need more units than if you run through to Birmingham).

That's assuming:

• That the additional trains would (depart Aberystwyth and) arrive at Shrewsbury at the same times on even hours as they do on odd hours.
• That trains will take exactly the same time between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury as at present.

 

[The Planner]

They would pretty much have to, the infrastructure doesnt allow for much else.

 

[transmanche]

They would pretty much have to, the infrastructure doesnt allow for much else.

I thought the whole point of the infrastructure improvements was to allow for faster journeys, thus enabling an hourly service pattern.

And if the journeys are faster, then they won't be arriving and departing at exactly the same times as at present.

 

[berneyarms]

I thought the whole point of the infrastructure improvements was to allow for faster journeys, thus enabling an hourly service pattern.

And if the journeys are faster, then they won't be arriving and departing at exactly the same times as at present.

Yes but every train would be crossing with three other trains en route, so you would have to build some time into the schedule to allow for recovery, which would account for some of the time saved in sectional running. Otherwise, you could have total chaos.

Having said that, I would imagine that Cambrian trains could probably arrive at and depart from Shrewsbury about 3 minutes earlier than at present, which would allow for a 7 minute turnaround.

 

[The Planner]

As I have mentioned plenty of times before, the whole thing stems around the single line occupation and regardless of how robust the timetable is the whole thing is going to fall like a pack of cards in perturbation.

 

[berneyarms]

As I have mentioned plenty of times before, the whole thing stems around the single line occupation and regardless of how robust the timetable is the whole thing is going to fall like a pack of cards in perturbation.

I understand that - just explaining that whatever time savings there may be, some of it will be used as recovery time at crossing points.

 

[The Planner]

Depends on what you mean by recovery. A robust junction margin will be needed at the loops but you can't go too far the other way or you just eat into any journey time benefit.

 

[berneyarms]

Depends on what you mean by recovery. A robust junction margin will be needed at the loops but you can't go too far the other way or you just eat into any journey time benefit.

I was referring to junction margin at the loops.

I do understand how trains are pathed - and in particular how single lines work, or don't if things go wrong!

 

[The Planner]

Normally you wouldn't add any more than a minute to the technical point where ERTMS starts putting a braking curve in at those linespeeds, same goes for conventional signalling.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Normally you wouldn't add any more than a minute to the technical point where ERTMS starts putting a braking curve in at those linespeeds, same goes for conventional signalling.

Depends if your going for the glory project of an hourly service the whole way to Aberystwyth or the sensible approach of more trains at times of real need, having put the sensible option on the table of a "Newtown shuttle" using a single 153 on the table ad far back as 1997 and seen various people high jack the agenda because they wanted the glory of going all the way in one go I have every right to feel thoroughly cheesed off with the idiots that sought glory over what what was possible and affordable and would have been a stepping stone to going further west. Zero infrastructure spend and only £400K per annum according to the letter I still have the Central Trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's assuming:

• That the additional trains would (depart Aberystwyth and) arrive at Shrewsbury at the same times on even hours as they do on odd hours.
• That trains will take exactly the same time between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury as at present.

Indeed, I certainly did make those assumptions.

I doubt there's much scope to retime the current services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, so I reckon timings at Shrewsbury remaining the same is a pretty safe assumption.

 

[transmanche]

Indeed, I certainly did make those assumptions.

I doubt there's much scope to retime the current services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, so I reckon timings at Shrewsbury remaining the same is a pretty safe assumption.

I certainly didn't suggest there would be any retiming of services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

I just wondered if all the infrastructure improvements would deliver a same-time departure from Aberystwyth with an earlier arrival at Shrewsbury, so a unit could shuttle between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury for the extra services. Thus not requiring as many additional units as working all the way through to Birmingham Intl would need.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I just wondered if all the infrastructure improvements would deliver a same-time departure from Aberystwyth with an earlier arrival at Shrewsbury, so a unit could shuttle between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury for the extra services.

Maybe, at the cost of longer waits at Shrewsbury for the current service or an unequal-interval timetable. The simple answer is I don't know if the journey time will be be reduced to allow that.

Thus not requiring as many additional units as working all the way through to Birmingham Intl would need.

Well, that depends on whether the Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester route uses four cars throughout. I think the normal practice is that two coaches split off at Shrewsbury, if so the stock for the Shrewsbury-Birmingham leg is already there.

 

[transmanche]

Maybe, at the cost of longer waits at Shrewsbury for the current service or an unequal-interval timetable.

The Chester-Shrewsbury line already has an unequal-interval timetable[*], so I don't think ATW will have any qualms about running an uneven-interval timetable if that's how it works out.

* Departures from Chester generally at xx:19 or xx:20 in even hours and xx:30 in odd hours.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Chester-Shrewsbury line already has an unequal-interval timetable[*], so I don't think ATW will have any qualms about running an uneven-interval timetable if that's how it works out.

* Departures from Chester generally at xx:19 or xx:20 in even hours and xx:30 in odd hours.

This is what was proposed with the concept of a Newtown to Shrewsbury shuttle the times on the hour would have been different to the trains from Aberystwyth. The single unit required would literally be in and out of Shrewsbury but would have been waiting at Newtown for 35/40 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The double track section between Welshpool and Fron got used yesterday as extra trains were put on as the bus replacements couldn't keep the train tt between Machynlleth and Newtown. However looking at Open Train Times for Welshpool ( reproduced below) the extras that crossed the service trains were timed to cross with the trains in the platform at Welshpool rather than elsewhere on the double track section. Anyone know why?

FRGT 12:14½ Bescot Down Side Yard Talerddig 12:16½ ZZ
1G35 13:01 13:01 Aberystwyth Birmingham International 13:02 13:02 AW
1J15 13:48½ 13:49 Birmingham International Newtown 13:49½ 13:49 AW
1G45 15:01 15:01 Newtown Birmingham International 15:02 15:02 AW
5Z45 14:56 Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate Sidings Newtown 15:03 AW
1J19 15:48½ 15:49 Birmingham International Newtown 15:49½ 15:49 AW
1Z45 15:44½ 15:45 Newtown Shrewsbury 15:50½ 15:50 AW
1G55 17:01 17:01 Newtown Birmingham International 17:02 17:02 AW
5Z55 16:56 Shrewsbury Newtown 17:03 AW
1Z55 17:54½ 17:55 Newtown Shrewsbury 17:56½ 17:56 AW
1J23 17:48½ 17:49 Birmingham International Newtown 17:58 17:58 AW
1G65 19:01 19:01 Newtown Birmingham International 19:02 19:02 AW
5Z65 18:56 Shrewsbury Newtown 19:03 AW
1Z65 19:54½ 19:55 Newtown Shrewsbury 19:56½ 19:56 AW
1J27 19:51½ 19:52 Birmingham International Newtown 19:58 19:58 AW
1G75 21:03½ 21:04 Newtown Birmingham New Street 21:04½ 21:04 AW
5Z75 20:56 Shrewsbury Newtown 21:06 AW
1J31 22:03½ 22:04 Birmingham International Newtown 22:05 22:05 AW
1Z75 21:59½ 22:00 Newtown Shrewsbury 22:06 22:06 AW
5Z31 23:00½ Newtown Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate Sidings 23:02½ AW

 

[Llanigraham]

Because there are still problems with the down side of the "dynamic" loop (allegedly)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Because there are still problems with the down side of the "dynamic" loop (allegedly)

But they'd still have had to use it for one of the services, so what are the problems?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Same situation again this weekend, bus replacements between Machynlleth and Newtown with extra trains from Newtown to Shrewsbury. Still timed to cross at the platforms at Welshpool rather than on the double track open road to Fron. Shrewsbury Civil Engineer Sidings to Welshpool working after last train on Wednesday and returns before 1st UP on Thursday.

 

[The Informer]

Because there are still problems with the down side of the "dynamic" loop (allegedly)

It requires further track stabilisation works to be signed off as completed!

That CE train is currently sitting on the Down Loop at Fron.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It requires further track stabilisation works to be signed off as completed!

That CE train is currently sitting on the Down Loop at Fron.

Also the mobile flood lights were up at "the join" between the original double track formation and the 1990's relocated station at Welshpool. Foul night for it wonder how much they did?

Looks like the Minister will respond in March

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-26137506

 

[Rhydgaled]

Looks like the Minister will respond in March

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-26137506

From that link, apparently the report covers the costs, feasibility, business case, timetable and an implementation plan for the enhanced service. Has that report been published by any chance? I wonder whether the timetable and implementation plan would answer the questions of whether the service would run through to Birmingham and where the rolling stock would come from?

Also,

Hopes for an hourly service along the Cambrian line received a boost last week when Powys planners gave the go-ahead to close five crossings on the network between Carno and Talerddig.

The Network Rail project will also include replacing the crossings with two road bridges over the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury railway line.

Does this mean closing these crossings and building the two bridges is a prerequisite for the hourly service? If so, NR will be hard pressed to get that work done by December while repairing lots of broken coastal railways I would have thought.

 

[The Planner]

From that link, apparently the report covers the costs, feasibility, business case, timetable and an implementation plan for the enhanced service. Has that report been published by any chance? I wonder whether the timetable and implementation plan would answer the questions of whether the service would run through to Birmingham and where the rolling stock would come from?

If you are expecting the extra services to form additional Shrewsbury - Birminghams then the chances are basically nil.

Also,
Does this mean closing these crossings and building the two bridges is a prerequisite for the hourly service? If so, NR will be hard pressed to get that work done by December while repairing lots of broken coastal railways I would have thought.

Sounds like it, means the line speed can be raised and the single line occupation reduced.

 

[merlodlliw]

Interesting this morning BBC News channel has its anchor woman based at Porthmadog station, the pictures show damage to its roof and the station veranda ripped off. She made no comment about no trains have run for months.