Stock they should have built more of

[Blindtraveler]

Hi.

Given the stock issues we have everywhere at the moment I have been wondering what everyone thinks there should have been more of, if money and the like allowed. My personal thoughts would be more networker CL465S AND NETWORK TURBO 165S and 166s AS WELL AS MORE 323S. Suburban metro and mid distance work would be in my own view in far better shape now if this had been done, particularly in areas where super/express sprinter stock is pottering around on branch lines or local commuter services when they could be better used elsewhere.

In terms of long distance regional/interregional units if we could have (once all there early faults had been fixed) more 3 or even 4 coach 175s and perhaps an EMU Variant of the 180s then we wouldnt see so many services running with ill suited stock, particularly on the WCML, in Scotland on Express work and in FGW Land. Another run of 159s wouldnt have gone a miss iether as the current ATW Area could make use of them in areas 175s dont opperate and same could be said for SWT and FGW. Anyway, discuss.

 

[Trainfan344]

156's for me, useful little things.

 

[Blindtraveler]

156's for me, useful little things.

my fault with them (and this is being picky) is there speed limmitations - given todays conditions a Super Sprinter type unit really needs to cruise at 90? Just my thoughts.

 

[Tracked]

333's - good runners, even if they've 3+2 seating they're better than the 321/322's in WYPTE

158's - Didn't like them when they were first introduced, now they're on local services more round here they're welcome (especially compared to the 142/144 they alternate with)

175's - rather than 170's/185's for FTPE

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's one of the conundrums of the railway that rolling stock is very rarely "right first time".
Usually it takes a second or third build before the design defects are ironed out, and by then the technology has moved on and the design is obsolete.
The only "right first time" trains I recall were the 156, the Voyagers, and the Desiro fleets.
Bigger fleets of all these would be nice just now.

If there is a "build more" list, there also needs to be a "build less" one.
Umpteen first-generation DMUs/locos should be in there.
155s didn't do too well either, nor the whole Coradia fleet.
Despite the 175/180s being nice trains eventually, there are too few of them (ie maintenance is too costly).

My rule would be to buy larger numbers of fewer types, getting them "right first time".

 

[fowler9]

The 156's are absolute bliss on the service I often catch from West Allerton to Liverpool Lime Street. Many is the time I have seen a 142 or 150 pull in to the station on a busy morning and I've walked off and got a bus instead. Probably sounds mad but I always leave early enough that I can get a bus and still be early for work if the train is cancelled (Or a 142 or 150, ha ha).

 

[Qwerty133]

Class 220/221- if there's double the amount the services would have enough coaches
Class 222- could have freed up all HSTs from EMT, for extra capacity for XC and would have enabled electrification of the MML to take longer.
Class 158 and Class 444- there the ideal solutions for every line in the country according to some.

 

[zn1]

stock they should have built....

the networker family of should have been completed, regardsless of no crossrail...this would have meant every route of NSE had a brand new fleet of suburban and express unit..would have eliminated the entire ac/dc EPB & MK2 emu fleets.

The cascade of the waterloo and city and their transfer to the IOW should have happened...

class 159 extention build to eliminate the SR demu fleet

class 165 extention for bedford - bletchley(eventually oxford use) with gauge clearance work done on the branch

 

[thealexweb]

my fault with them (and this is being picky) is there speed limmitations - given todays conditions a Super Sprinter type unit really needs to cruise at 90? Just my thoughts.

They will prove useful in the future on lines like Manchester to Southport (via Walkden). Speed limit never goes above 75.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont think many would thank you for more voyagers although I see the idea. A 2nd run of 9 car 222s without the pendo levels of over provision in FC would as stated have freed up HSTS to go to XC or better still to East Coast or Scotrail who could both use them. With the entire 221 fleat I would, money not being an object build the extra pantograph cars and at time of insertion Gut the interiors, go for less disabled loos and more seats. The current 22s and the newbuild would also b fitted so Bi-mode opperation to/from Bedford were doable, with Panto cars built as needed. ↲

 

[southern442]

Class 171 - Not technically a build but more a conversion.

 

[Manchester77]

my fault with them (and this is being picky) is there speed limmitations - given todays conditions a Super Sprinter type unit really needs to cruise at 90? Just my thoughts.

Agree with that, perhaps a 158 with 156 pocket doors (reducing the dwell times).

I also agree with the roll out of NSEs networker plan as well as the Thameslink 2000 rolling stock plan which would have cascaded the 319s around and modernised the rolling stock in the South East. Some of the mock ups of the 'universal networkers' showed a kind of 465 & 442 combo unit with first class compartments and 3+2 standard seating.

Perhaps more 150s would be good meaning that there wouldn't be as many pacers in service.

Finally perhaps a few extra InterCity 225 sets which would reduce the need for the under wore moves on East Coast. If intercity had been able to build the extra sets it wanted to boost WC then they'd have moved the EC post WCML modernisation so you'd have had more capacity on WC to begin with and now more on EC.

 

[transmanche]

Well more of (or at least more carriages in each set if) almost any class would be a good thing.

But (restricting it to post-privatisation types) these are my top 'missed' opportunities:

• 175 - they're excellent for regional express work. The current batch should all have been 3-car. More of them would have released more 158s to strengthen other services.
• 185 - despite gripes on here, the door arrangement really is needed for the TP 'core', but they should have been 4 (or 5) car and there should have been more of them.
• 220/221 - should have had more carriages
• 222 - to eliminate HSTs from the MML
• 444 - so wouldn't need to use 450s on onger-distance routes

 

[43074]

Class 175s and 180s, probably the best post privatisation DMUs in the country. I haven't encountered anything better.
Class 91s and Mark 4s for the West Coast Main Line; had they been built we probably wouldn't have had Pendolinos on the West Coast Main Line.
HSTs, which would have got rid of virtually all 47s and 86s on CrossCountry in the 1980s, had the full proposed fleet been built (36 XC sets, split between NE-SW and SC-NW routes)

They shouldn't have built the 9 car 222s though, totally unnecessary achieving nothing but replacing a few HSTs.

 

[455driver]

They should have carried on with the Pacer family, possibly going for a bogied version for longer distance routes!

Oh hang on a minute, they did!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Class 175s and 180s, probably the best post privatisation DMUs in the countryI haven't encountered anything better.

Have you posted this for comedy value? As far as I know the 180's are unable to use Birmingham New Street which would hardly make them successful. Not to mention their reliability issues!

Class 91s and Mark 4s for the West Coast Main Line; had they been built we probably wouldn't have had Pendolinos on the West Coast Main Line.

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point here. The Pendolinos are much quicker than the 225's

They shouldn't have built the 9 car 222s though, totally unnecessary achieving nothing but replacing a few HSTs.

Again, the 222's are much quicker off the mark than HST's. And the doors are much easier to open.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They should have carried on with the Pacer family, possibly going for a bogied version for longer distance routes!

Oh hang on a minute, they did!

I'm sorry but I'm not really sure that you know what you're talking about. Pacers don't have bogies.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think
455Driver
was just ever so slightly joking about Pacers, although from a very personal point of view, every regional TOC Should have some but I know most woant agree. Would someone fill me in on 180s and BHM?↲

 

[Erniescooper]

The Class 180 would have no problem with New St http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T787_rb2_final.pdf . To quote the report " Both the Class 180 Coradia (See figure 1) and Class 222 Meridian vehicles demonstrate improved structure clearances over the Mark II coach, indicating potential operational deployment comparable to the Mk II coach."

 

[Muzer]

As has already been said, 158s/159s. They are well-suited to any unelectrified "regional express" type lines, of which there are many - that is, lines on which journey times are usually longer on average, but still might have many stops. I would argue that they are the best of this type of stock, personally, from a passenger's point of view - the original seating is outstanding, they have very good acceleration for a diesel unit and a decent top speed, and (aside from the air con) there's not really all too much the matter with them after what I believe were initial teething problems.

 

[Yew]

159. As they are essensially a 158 with more capacity. could be useful on the Liverpool-Nottingham runs. And they are generally nice regional express units. Although a 100mph version could have been useful..

 

[GatwickDepress]

The Electrostar. If only Bombardier had built more...

Seriously though, I'd go for the Turbostar family. Very comfortable and spacious, with only minimum rattle..if only some eccentric gazillionaire had bought enough to replace all the Pacers.

 

[SprinterMan]

Have you posted this for comedy value? As far as I know the 180's are unable to use Birmingham New Street which would hardly make them successful. Not to mention their reliability issues!

While it is true that Class 180s are not cleared to use Birmingham New Street due to not being cleared through Proof House Tunnel, they could be cleared as ATW use 175s on several services from Shrewsbury to Birmingham International, 175s having the same body profile as 180s.

I'm sorry but I'm not really sure that you know what you're talking about. Pacers don't have bogies.

This is in reference to the 153s & 155s. They were built by the same company that built the 142s, and suffer from body sag when compared to 156s.

Adam

 

[yorksrob]

156‘s and 158‘s.

How about a few properly tweaked APT‘s for the WCML?

Oh, and a much higher ratio of 144‘s to 142‘s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And they could have done with a few more of those reformed 6REP‘s and moved them to the South Eastern division.

 

[The Ham]

Given the lack of stock at present there could be the argument that any extra units of any class would have been useful.

 

[KX03HZY]

They should have built more 442's.

 

[jopsuk]

stock they should have built....

the networker family of should have been completed, regardsless of no crossrail...this would have meant every route of NSE had a brand new fleet of suburban and express unit..would have eliminated the entire ac/dc EPB & MK2 emu fleets.

If the Networker program had been truly "complete", then the southwestern 158/159 would have been displaced north or west- and possibly the 313-321s as well

 

[route:oxford]

158s

I sometimes wonder if a batch of, say, 30 5-car 158s would have driven growth earlier in the XC network.

They would probably still have been replaced by 220/221s earlier this century - allowing 60 2-car 158s to be extended to 3-car.

 

[43074]

Have you posted this for comedy value? As far as I know the 180's are unable to use Birmingham New Street which would hardly make them successful. Not to mention their reliability issues!

I posted that from a passengers' point of view, not an operational one. They've since settled down and are perfoming (reasonably) well.

They are similar to the 175s, so I'd have thought it was possible if it was ever required. Last time I checked London to Hull or London to Hereford did not require going through Birmingham New Street.

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point here. The Pendolinos are much quicker than the 225's

In the 1990s, InterCity were planning to upgrade the West Coast Main Line using 225s: I was referring to the fact that had this happened, we wouldn't have had to endure Pendolinos on that route!

Again, the 222's are much quicker off the mark than HST's. And the doors are much easier to open.

Yes, but the 9 car 222s were stored for about a year after they were built because there was no work for them... A great success there!

 

[chris11256]

I'd say more 357's. A lot of peak trains are still 8 carriage on c2c, need more 12 carriage services.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Yeah, I don't think they built enough 141s or 142s, especially for routes up north.

In reality, they really should have been more of the Networker family of units built. Reliable, stylish units which carry their years lightly (if you factor out graffiti and the like). If I didn't know otherwise, I'd think you were taking the mickey if was told they are 20 years old and counting.