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Dawlish sea wall collapse

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Rich McLean

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By the sound of that, the new cable avoids the sea wall section completely, and that's why the signals at Dawlish Warren are black, so there's no chance of a train service to Dawlish Warren unless it's a temporary one train working arrangement over a single line.

Correct. As far as I am aware, it is remotely controlled from Newton Abbot, as there is an access point there for signalling arrangements, when events like this occur. It is possible for normal service tomorrow on the Paignton Branch, maybe the Newton Abbot to Totnes/Paignton has been hooked up to Plymouth PSB
 
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MarkyT

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Correct. As far as I am aware, it is remotely controlled from Newton Abbot, as there is an access point there for signalling arrangements, when events like this occur. It is possible for normal service tomorrow on the Paignton Branch, maybe the Newton Abbot to Totnes/Paignton has been hooked up to Plymouth PSB

There is a large brick built relay room for the signalling interlocking equipment together with a local power supply and a backup generator at the Exeter end of the station. This has an emergency operations panel within so an operator can be dispatched from Exeter to help manage local operations in the event of a control link failure. There is a similar smaller facility at Totnes, built at the same time in the mid 1980s. The latter site may have been switched to and left unattended in automatic 'through routes' which in that case would route everything through the platforms automatically. Emergency panels are not fully equipped signalboxes and typically don't have ancillary systems such as train describers, or a switchboard to answer signal telephones or radio systems, so the remote operator has to work in conjunction with the signaller for the appropriate area back at Exeter, being his hands and eyes effectively. The black signals at Dawlish Warren are a result of local power loss, not loss of the control link which would cause all controlled signals to return to their most restrictive aspect. Power may have tripped out during the incident but more likely the lineside 650v cables have been isolated for safety whilst heavy machinery and workers are busy given there is no requirement to run rail traffic except possibly engineering trains within the possession.
 

Rich McLean

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There is a large brick built relay room for the signalling interlocking equipment together with a local power supply and a backup generator at the Exeter end of the station. This has an emergency operations panel within so an operator can be dispatched from Exeter to help manage local operations in the event of a control link failure. There is a similar smaller facility at Totnes, built at the same time in the mid 1980s. The latter site may have been switched to and left unattended in automatic 'through routes' which in that case would route everything through the platforms automatically. Emergency panels are not fully equipped signalboxes and typically don't have ancillary systems such as train describers, or a switchboard to answer signal telephones or radio systems, so the remote operator has to work in conjunction with the signaller for the appropriate area back at Exeter, being his hands and eyes effectively. The black signals at Dawlish Warren are a result of local power loss, not loss of the control link which would cause all controlled signals to return to their most restrictive aspect. Power may have tripped out during the incident but more likely the lineside 650v cables have been isolated for safety whilst heavy machinery and workers are busy given there is no requirement to run rail traffic except possibly engineering trains within the possession.

Many thanks for clearing that one up
 

Graiser

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Many thanks for clearing that one up

All power, signalling and fibre cables were manually severed after the washout. The fibre was rerouted via BT down to Penzance and back up to Newton Abbot. New cables are being run out as we speak utilising a temp scaffold bridge over the washout.
As far as I'm aware there is full signalling Newton Abbot - Paignton and west.
As stated by others in this thread the possession includes both crossovers at Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren, however there have been soundings from the TOC to reduce the possession confines and run services to Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth with pilot working, although unlikely at Dawlish Warren, it's possible at Teignmouth although once again unlikely due to other potential works being undertaken.
 

LateThanNever

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All power, signalling and fibre cables were manually severed after the washout. The fibre was rerouted via BT down to Penzance and back up to Newton Abbot. New cables are being run out as we speak utilising a temp scaffold bridge over the washout.
As far as I'm aware there is full signalling Newton Abbot - Paignton and west.
As stated by others in this thread the possession includes both crossovers at Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren, however there have been soundings from the TOC to reduce the possession confines and run services to Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth with pilot working, although unlikely at Dawlish Warren, it's possible at Teignmouth although once again unlikely due to other potential works being undertaken.

So hopefully will be routed inland from now on. Makes remote signalling seem very fragile...
 

Zoe

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All power, signalling and fibre cables were manually severed after the washout. The fibre was rerouted via BT down to Penzance and back up to Newton Abbot.
Why did it need to go all the way to Penzance?
 
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Rich McLean

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Why did it need to go all the way to Penzance?

I don't understand that either. I would have thought it could of been done via ISDN to Newton Abbot in that case (and I work in the comms industry).

Unless of course it was done via Fiber links, which the Met Office use, in which case there is a run down to Penzance. Remember, many places in Cornwall are still AB, so would not be connected all the way to NTA.
 
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Zoe

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Unless of course it was done via Fiber links, which the Met Office use, in which case there is a run down to Penzance. Remember, many places in Cornwall are still AB, so would not be connected all the way to NTA.
But why would any of the boxes in Cornwall need signalling data from Exeter PSB?
 
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Rich McLean

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But why would any of the boxes in Cornwall need signalling data from Exeter PSB?

The Fibre run from Exeter to Penzance is nothing to do with the signalling, but used by the Met Office and the MOD. However it can be used for other purposes.

I highly doubt what was stated in previous posts is true
 

Zoe

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The Fibre run from Exeter to Penzance is nothing to do with the signalling, but used by the Met Office and the MOD. However it can be used for other purposes.
If the links between Exeter PSB and the Newton Abbot and Totnes interlockings were severed though, I'm not sure how sending data over fibre to Penzance is going to help if there's no fibre link from there to Newton Abbot. I'm not that well up on the relay interlockings in question and how fibre is used to control them.
 
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LateThanNever

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If the links between Exeter PSB and the Newton Abbot and Totnes interlockings were severed though, I'm not sure how sending data over fibre to Penzance is going to help if there's no fibre link from there to Newton Abbot. I'm not that well up on the relay interlockings in question and how fibre is used to control them.

Surely the more info the better. And perhaps this is the start of a resilient system - ie not dependent on just rail links. Would surely be useful. (though I do agree that inserting Penzance signalling into Didcot is crazy - they should be left on straightforward mechanical!)
 

Zoe

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Surely the more info the better.
Well considering that a lot of Conrwall is sitll mechanical, I'm just not sure why a railway fibre cable from Penzance to Totnes/Newton Abbot would have been installed. If it is indeed the case that communication between Exeter and the Newton Abbot and Totnes interlockings was via Met Office fibre cable to Penzance and then back to Newton Abbot via a railway fibre cable then I'm not if sure it would have been installed specifically for this type of event or if the installation would have been for another reason.
 
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LateThanNever

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Well considering that a lot of Conrwall is sitll mechanical, I'm just not sure why a railway fibre cable from Penzance to Totnes/Newton Abbot would have been installed. If it is indeed the case that communication between Exeter and the Newton Abbot and Totnes interlockings was via Met Office fibre cable to Penzance and then back to Newton Abbot via a railway fibre cable then I'm not if sure it would have been installed specifically for this type of event or if the installation would have been for another reason.

I do realise that much of Cornwall is still mechanical but Penzance with its sea flooding propensity is surely very vulnerable ,but the great advantage of straightforward mechanical is that it doesn't go anywhere so if there were no electrics this equals wonderful resilience. Internet connections via elsewhere equals even more resilience! Do Network Rail realise?
 

Zoe

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I do realise that much of Cornwall is still mechanical but Penzance with its sea flooding propensity is surely very vulnerable ,but the great advantage of straightforward mechanical is that it doesn't go anywhere so if there were no electrics this equals wonderful resilience. Internet connections via elsewhere equals even more resilience! Do Network Rail realise?
If you are going to the expense of having a system so that signals can be controlled from a remote location via the internet then I doubt the mechanical signalling would be retained.
 
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Llanigraham

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I do realise that much of Cornwall is still mechanical but Penzance with its sea flooding propensity is surely very vulnerable ,but the great advantage of straightforward mechanical is that it doesn't go anywhere so if there were no electrics this equals wonderful resilience. Internet connections via elsewhere equals even more resilience! Do Network Rail realise?

Sorry, but even mechanical signalling still requires electronics!!
Don't forget that there are still track circuits to contend with.
 

James Starkie

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I've been watching the webcam for the last few days, and, at the risk of asking a silly question but can anyone explain what sequence this work is following? ie, what are they doing?
 

TEW

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I do realise that much of Cornwall is still mechanical but Penzance with its sea flooding propensity is surely very vulnerable ,but the great advantage of straightforward mechanical is that it doesn't go anywhere so if there were no electrics this equals wonderful resilience. Internet connections via elsewhere equals even more resilience! Do Network Rail realise?

Penzance already is very vulnerable. The track circuits in the area fail relatively frequently because of flooding.
 

LateThanNever

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Penzance already is very vulnerable. The track circuits in the area fail relatively frequently because of flooding.

That's why I suggested it should revert to purely mechanical!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, but even mechanical signalling still requires electronics!!
Don't forget that there are still track circuits to contend with.

Not if they don't exist!
 
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TEW

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That's why I suggested it should revert to purely mechanical!
That is never going to happen. For a start the main problems are with the single line between Penzance and Marazion. To revert to a purely mechanical system you'd need to open a new box up at the other end of the single line at Marazion. Far more practical would be to convert the area to train detection by Axle Counters which are less vulnerable to flooding.
 
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MarkyT

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Penzance already is very vulnerable. The track circuits in the area fail relatively frequently because of flooding.

Engineers put in a back up axle counter system through the station throat area at Penzance to detect trains if the track circuits fail due to 'the damp'. The entire sea wall at Dawlish and along the Exe estuary was also fitted with axle counters as the primary means of train detection - these have proved most reliable in the face of salt water, which track circuits have great difficulty with.
 

YorkshireBear

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I've been watching the webcam for the last few days, and, at the risk of asking a silly question but can anyone explain what sequence this work is following? ie, what are they doing?

Basically, they cut back the track and spray concreted the exposed earth to keep it stabilised and not suffer further damage. Also they placed the containers there and filled em as part of the protection.
Now after leveling what was left behind the remainder of the wall they are slowly building it back up as a reinforced concrete wall. What you have seen is a concrete base being poured and left to cure for 24 hours. Then they have come in built up the front wall with formwork (used to contain liquid concrete) and then placed steel bars and poured concrete around it to form a reinforced concrete wall.
Best i can do for now.
 

Llanigraham

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That's why I suggested it should revert to purely mechanical!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not if they don't exist!

Even in my little signal box we have track circuits!!
And don't forget that even mechanical signals need electric to run the bulbs.
 
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