• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Joanna Dennehy: serial killer

Status
Not open for further replies.

meridian2

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
I'd be pretty interested to see what world media makes of our justice system. Especially from those countries who have the same punishment. Whole life sentences are inhumane - pray tell me how never knowing when/if you'll be released is humane and before someone mentions that they killed another person I remind you human rights apply to everyone.

'Never knowing when/if they'll be released' is exactly the point of those sentences. Nevertheless, they rightfully rejected the appeal so that case is thankfully closed.

Going back on topic, @theKnightWho, looking at statistics is different than interpreting the statistics. I was questioning the basis of your interpretation as it seemed to be naive.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,329
Going back on topic, @theKnightWho, looking at statistics is different than interpreting the statistics. I was questioning the basis of your interpretation as it seemed to be naive.

No doubt some people will claim that is acecdotal as well! :roll:

Isnt it funny how whatever they disagree with is anecdotal but the stastitics they post are facts, I wonder why? :lol:

Anyway I am bored with this now, bye bye!
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
No doubt some people will claim that is acecdotal as well! :roll:

Isnt it funny how whatever they disagree with is anecdotal but the stastitics they post are facts, I wonder why? :lol:

Anyway I am bored with this now, bye bye!

Are you just incapable of working out the difference between anecdotal and general evidence? I never said all statistics are facts, but they're a damn sight more reliable than personal stories. I would have thought that was a pretty easy concept to understand, but considering all you're bringing to the table is anecdotes I'm not entirely surprised you don't like it.

Calling all statistics unreliable is incredibly lazy and quite frankly anti-intellectual. If there are valid reasons to doubt them that's absolutely fine, but that simply isn't what you're doing.

There's also a very easy solution: post some actual evidence that crime has risen.
 
Last edited:

meridian2

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
'Statistics are more reliable than personal stories'; do you honestly believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate here?

'Calling all statistics unreliable is incredibly lazy', I like the irony here. So is proclaiming that 'statistics are more reliable than personal stories'. The problem here is that you swallow statistics with the alacrity of climate-change deniers; no questioning of the evidence, no analysis of analysis of analysis etc.
It's no wonder you two can't agree on anything; you're both wibbling on from polar opposites of the argument.:lol:
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
'Never knowing when/if they'll be released' is exactly the point of those sentences. Nevertheless, they rightfully rejected the appeal so that case is thankfully closed.

Nice sidestep. I wonder if you'll consider torture "rightful" when it's someone close to you?

Back on topic what happens if the prisoner rejects the offer? Does he/she/family have to pay for their incarceration?
 
Last edited:

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
'Statistics are more reliable than personal stories'; do you honestly believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate here?

'Calling all statistics unreliable is incredibly lazy', I like the irony here. So is proclaiming that 'statistics are more reliable than personal stories'. The problem here is that you swallow statistics with the alacrity of climate-change deniers; no questioning of the evidence, no analysis of analysis of analysis etc.
It's no wonder you two can't agree on anything; you're both wibbling on from polar opposites of the argument.:lol:

Are you serious? You're acting like I'm blindly looking at some numbers and instantly making my mind up. Of course I'm happy to question them, but what I won't accept is "my mate saw this so it must be false" as evidence that they're wrong.

And frankly, equivocating anecdotes and statistics is just disingenuous. They aren't two different, equally valid approaches; the latter has its flaws, whereas the first is completely unreliable.
 
Last edited:

meridian2

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
Are you serious? You're acting like I'm blindly looking at some numbers and instantly making my mind up. Of course I'm happy to question them, but what I won't accept is "my mate saw this so it must be false" as evidence that they're wrong.

And frankly, equivocating anecdotes and statistics is just disingenuous. They aren't two different, equally valid approaches; the latter has its flaws, whereas the first is completely unreliable.

Well that's how you come across as: 'blindly looking at numbers and making my mind up'. You've declared that the statistics show empirically, that in the decades following the abolition of the death penalty, crime in the UK has fallen. The first thing I want to be absolutely sure of is: are you saying that the existence of capital punishment as a form of sentencing is associated with the number of crimes committed and/or the severity of them?

We'll deal with the rest of the points you made to 455Driver and myself later, but I'm asking purely for clarification purposes only.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
The best thing to look at is the Crime Survey for England and Wales, as that covers crimes unreported to the police.
 

sutty

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2011
Messages
151
If crimes (or reported crime (or reductions in reporing crime)) are trending down, why is our prison population rising?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/uk_prisons_in_the_uk/img/1.jpg

I ask not to further the debate, but I'm genuinely interested. Are we simply proseccuting more and convicting more due to better detection and investigation of crimes?

(Bouncing round on a packed 350 out of New St on peak, apologies for any typos)
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
Well that's how you come across as: 'blindly looking at numbers and making my mind up'. You've declared that the statistics show empirically, that in the decades following the abolition of the death penalty, crime in the UK has fallen. The first thing I want to be absolutely sure of is: are you saying that the existence of capital punishment as a form of sentencing is associated with the number of crimes committed and/or the severity of them?

We'll deal with the rest of the points you made to 455Driver and myself later, but I'm asking purely for clarification purposes only.

Right - I've now got time to give you a more extensive reply, although there really isn't all that much that needs to be said as I never claimed that statistics show empirically that crime has fallen because of the abolition of the death penalty. That would be silly, and no doubt a conflation of correlation and causation.

What I am saying, though, is that statistics have a huge advantage over anecdotes due to the size of the sample. Yes, they can be manipulated, but it's quite clear that someone's who observed one or two events in real life (in 455driver's case it's 4) does not have a sufficient sample size to really make any general claims about it. That's apart from the fact that we all tend to have a confirmation bias, where we remember things that reinforce our views, and dismiss/forget/don't notice those that don't.

What the statistics do show is that the abolition of the death penalty has not caused an increase in crime, and so there seems to be little point in reinstating it. It's expensive, messy and morally dubious due to the fact we can make mistakes, and the fact that it doesn't serve to keep crime down seems to render it pointless. If people want it for retribution then that's their prerogative, but good luck convincing any state to reintroduce it for those reasons, when it won't actually be of any practical advantage. That's aside from the fact that a state built upon retribution seems ethically unsound to many people.
 

meridian2

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
Can't disagree with that last statement, but I wonder who thought that a reintroduction of capital punishment would be tantamount to retribution? Bit 'black-and-white' if you ask me, and certainly if state execution was brought back for those reasons it would definitely be morally and ethically unsound.
I guess it comes down to the application of state executions. If they are to be used in an 'eye-for-an-eye' situations it would be terrible for justice. But I think you'll find a great many people don't want that. They want state executions to be used fairly and ethically, taking into account the person's crimes and weighing it up against the prosecuting and defending evidence. If people are truly wanting the death penalty reintroduced for this person based on 'retribution', do you really think that the weight of public opinion, given that the majority of this weight are from people who have virtually no connection with any of the victim's families, is because many are 'bandwagon-jumping' in the name of 'retribution', or is because they are frustrated with the current sentencing and want a 'like-for-like' sentence based on the weight of the crime?
I'm hoping its the latter as I think it's illogical for people who have no connection with this case to clamber for a reintroduction of the death penalty.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
Can't disagree with that last statement, but I wonder who thought that a reintroduction of capital punishment would be tantamount to retribution? Bit 'black-and-white' if you ask me, and certainly if state execution was brought back for those reasons it would definitely be morally and ethically unsound.
I guess it comes down to the application of state executions. If they are to be used in an 'eye-for-an-eye' situations it would be terrible for justice. But I think you'll find a great many people don't want that. They want state executions to be used fairly and ethically, taking into account the person's crimes and weighing it up against the prosecuting and defending evidence. If people are truly wanting the death penalty reintroduced for this person based on 'retribution', do you really think that the weight of public opinion, given that the majority of this weight are from people who have virtually no connection with any of the victim's families, is because many are 'bandwagon-jumping' in the name of 'retribution', or is because they are frustrated with the current sentencing and want a 'like-for-like' sentence based on the weight of the crime?
I'm hoping its the latter as I think it's illogical for people who have no connection with this case to clamber for a reintroduction of the death penalty.

I'm not sure I see the difference between the two, though. Why do people want 'like for like' punishment if it has all the problems I mentioned above, if not for the fact that it's 'what they deserve'.

What do we actually mean when we say 'what someone deserves', if not revenge? It might be considered righteous to many people, but that's definitely an intuitive judgement, and not something based on anything logical (which doesn't necessarily make it wrong in and of itself). However, the fact that it has all these other disadvantages means that it's really not all that viable to reintroduce it.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
.... If people are truly wanting the death penalty reintroduced for this person based on 'retribution', do you really think that the weight of public opinion, given that the majority of this weight are from people who have virtually no connection with any of the victim's families, is because many are 'bandwagon-jumping' in the name of 'retribution', or is because they are frustrated with the current sentencing and want a 'like-for-like' sentence based on the weight of the crime?
I'm hoping its the latter as I think it's illogical for people who have no connection with this case to clamber for a reintroduction of the death penalty.
IMHO, the outpouring after the murder of Lee Rigby sadly suggests the former. One man was killed by two obviously highly disturbed individuals, yet there was a tidal wave of calls for all sorts of varieties of death for them. Again, with Dennehy, she killed three men, apparently for fun, and this has yet again brought calls for her to be strung up in several unpleasant ways. If it was simply "A has killed, therefore must themselves be killed" that would be understandable (if, IMHO, wrong). It is the added fury behind the comments that, to be honest, frightens me more than the original killing.
 

Kneedown

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2007
Messages
1,802
Location
Nottinghamshire
The United Kingdom just won't go back to execution. It won't happen.

Never say never. William the Conqueror abolished Capital Punishment but it was reinstated and lasted hundreds of years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm grateful that we still have the chance to sentence Ms Dennehy to life without parole.

Sadly, we will have our work cut out to ensure that this remains the case.

And therein lies the problem with a "Life" sentence. People have short memories and a few years down the line there is always a very real possibility that some influential person will secure an early release.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Treating people like animals does not reform them and the death penalty has no deterent effect, it is just revenge.

But reform shouldn't be an option for the crime of Murder, especially with recent cases and when children are the victims.
As regards the deterrent effect, statistics are open to interpretation one way or another, but when you consider that in 1965 there were around 73 recorded murders in Britain, basing on a population of around 55 million there was one Murder per 744,513.6 people.
In 2009 there were 651 murders in Britain, among a population of around 61.4 million. That gives a figure of one murder per 94,316.6 people.
A much higher rate even taking into account the growth in population.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/21/murders-drop-home-office-figures

As i've said, statistics can be manipulated or misinterpreted, but it certainly looks to me that the death penalty was a deterrent in this country.
If I can work out how to upload a PDF file (From the House of Commons Library 2005, author Gavin Berman) it will show that the murder rate was fairly steady before abolition, peaking in 1952, but gradually rose after abolition.

Whether it's a deterrent or not (and I believe it is) I certainly feel it's the only appropriate punishment for Murder.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
But reform shouldn't be an option for the crime of Murder, especially with recent cases and when children are the victims.

Whyever not? The purpose of a government in a society is to ensure stability, and the abolition of capital punishment has really not affected that in a bad way. Reform has actually improved it, too.

If you want to see a society with no chance of rehabilitation, look at the glorious US prison system. That's what happens when you shove a bunch of people together and consider them write-offs, and apart from being morally reprehensible it's extremely expensive. The average cost of a prisoner is in the tens of thousands of pounds per year; the average cost of putting someone to death is in the order of $3 million.

Also, your statistics are wrong:

According to this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historical-crime-data the murder rates are:

1952: 400
1962: 299
1972: 476
1982: 618
1992: 687
2002: 891
2012: 512

So yes, an increase, but not the drastic one you're claiming. You're forgetting that it's become easier to convict people with advances in technology, too. Fingerprinting only became reliable in the '70s, for example, which massively helped convictions. I mean, the 'violence against a person' convictions have increased from ~2000 in 1900 to 650,000 in 2000, and so it's pretty clear that it's become much easier to prove things. I don't think even the worst naysayers would argue that violent crime is 300 times worse than it was 100 years ago...
 
Last edited:

meridian2

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
I'm not sure I see the difference between the two, though. Why do people want 'like for like' punishment if it has all the problems I mentioned above, if not for the fact that it's 'what they deserve'.

What do we actually mean when we say 'what someone deserves', if not revenge? It might be considered righteous to many people, but that's definitely an intuitive judgement, and not something based on anything logical (which doesn't necessarily make it wrong in and of itself). However, the fact that it has all these other disadvantages means that it's really not all that viable to reintroduce it.

Sadly though, it's up to those higher up the justice system to decide whether or not the sentencing is based on retribution, and what's even more sad is that we will never get the death penalty back so long as there are those higher-up who share the same view as some on here regarding capital punishment being tantamount to retribution.

Furthermore, regarding whether or not rehabilitation is appropriate for murder crimes, again that should be up to those passing sentence, not those who disagree entirely with it being out of the question or vice versa. My opinion is that it differs from person to person, and you cannot simply generalise here. So many grey areas here, which makes bringing back capital punishment even harder, just as it does trying to make a bold case against its reintroduction harder based on rudimentary statistics and, yes the word of the thread: ANECDOTAL evidence.
 
Last edited:

Kneedown

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2007
Messages
1,802
Location
Nottinghamshire
Whyever not?

Because why should someone who has committed Murder have the opportunity to reform when the victim has no second chance and the victims loved one's have to continue as before without their loved one?


[QUOTE/The purpose of a government in a society is to ensure stability, and the abolition of capital punishment has really not affected that in a bad way. Reform has actually improved it, too.[/QUOTE]

The purpose of a Government is to protect the people and ensure Justice is done. I would suggest that abolition has affected this negatively.

If you want to see a society with no chance of rehabilitation, look at the glorious US prison system. That's what happens when you shove a bunch of people together and consider them write-offs, and apart from being morally reprehensible it's extremely expensive.

I cannot comment on the US prison system as I don't know enough facts about it. Please elaborate on what, in your view, makes it "Morally Reprehensible"

The average cost of a prisoner is in the tens of thousands of pounds per year; the average cost of putting someone to death is in the order of $3 million.

Only because of the endless, drawn out, appeals process where defence lawyers cause delay after delay with appeal after appeal, often on the most tenuous of reasons, with cases being referred to higher courts, before being referred down again, and so on and so on. I concur that the Americans should overhaul and streamline the process.

Also, your statistics are wrong:

According to this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/historical-crime-data the murder rates are:

1952: 400
1962: 299
1972: 476
1982: 618
1992: 687
2002: 891
2012: 512

So yes, an increase, but not the drastic one you're claiming. You're forgetting that it's become easier to convict people with advances in technology, too. Fingerprinting only became reliable in the '70s, for example, which massively helped convictions. I mean, the 'violence against a person' convictions have increased from ~2000 in 1900 to 650,000 in 2000, and so it's pretty clear that it's become much easier to prove things. I don't think even the worst naysayers would argue that violent crime is 300 times worse than it was 100 years ago...

I make no claim as to the 100% accuracy or otherwise of my statistic's, especially as I did the maths which isn't my strongest subject, but I notice the figures provided in the link you posted refer to "Homicides", as opposed to Murder, which includes Manslaughter and Infanticide. The figures posted are also, I believe Homicides reported, and not convictions?

http://http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN03805

The above document is one I referred to in my previous post.
The graph on page 2 shows the Homicide rate goes up and down from year to year, but also shows the rate increased vastly after abolition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What cases do you mean, and why are they different?
I mean all cases, but I was referring to Dennehy, Lee Rigby's killers and April Jone's killer, etc as being especially abhorrent.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Until there is no possibility of a person being convicted of murder who subsequently turns out to be innocent, then no humane civilised society should consider the death penalty.
 

Kneedown

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2007
Messages
1,802
Location
Nottinghamshire
Until there is no possibility of a person being convicted of murder who subsequently turns out to be innocent, then no humane civilised society should consider the death penalty.

In that case, no civilised, humane society should carry out abortions or euthanasia, as foetus's are innocent and there is always scope for abuse of euthanasia by people who see others as a burden.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
In that case, no civilised, humane society should carry out abortions or euthanasia, as foetus's are innocent and there is always scope for abuse of euthanasia by people who see others as a burden.

A foetus is not human though.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Some form of an alien being then ?

A collection of cells, not unlike cancer. It also fits the biological definition of a parasite. It does eventually become human later in development when it can survive outside its host
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,067
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
A collection of cells, not unlike cancer. It also fits the biological definition of a parasite. It does eventually become human later in development when it can survive outside its host

An interesting matter indeed to consider. What is your considered maximum number of weeks of gestation in humans that your terminology of foetus be so applied and what is your terminology for the foetus after that said time period ?
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
An interesting matter indeed to consider. What is your considered maximum number of weeks of gestation in humans that your terminology of foetus be so applied and what is your terminology for the foetus after that said time period ?

I go by the metric that when it can cope outside the womb it becomes human. Terminology I am unsure of since I believe embryo is the stage beforehand
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,067
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
I go by the metric that when it can cope outside the womb it becomes human.

.....as if by magic...:roll:

What on earth was it just before that so described event occurred if that was not a human being ?

You'll be telling me next that they are Birmingham City supporters until they exit the womb as fully-fledged Aston Villa supporters...:D
 
Last edited:

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
In that case, no civilised, humane society should carry out abortions or euthanasia, as foetus's are innocent and there is always scope for abuse of euthanasia by people who see others as a burden.
A foetus is not capable of independent thought or action,and therefore cannot be guilty or innocent, and abuse of euthanasia would be murder anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top