What would railways be like today if privatisation had not occurred?

[Tetchytyke]

The decision makers at the Railfreight companies are not hampered by such hang-ups, and made a very sensible procurement decision based on purely business issues.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here.

The freight operators had restricted choice in the marketplace- they could buy a locomotive from General Motors or, er, General Motors. The likes of Brush and English Electric had gone bust, so there was no choice.

The Class 66 was and is a great locomotive, but the Class 66 came out of a tiny order of Class 59 locomotives from the late 80s.

 

[Howardh]

Not read all the posts so this may have been covered -
thinking we may have had a much simpler ticketing structure than the bizarre efforts we have now. There must be many a new passenger put off simply by the bewildering array of tickets and the processes involved in getting the best deal on some routes.

On the other side, of course, is there may not be the super-cheap deals you can get if you know your way around the ticketing sites.

 

[Greenback]

Not read all the posts so this may have been covered -
thinking we may have had a much simpler ticketing structure than the bizarre efforts we have now. There must be many a new passenger put off simply by the bewildering array of tickets and the processes involved in getting the best deal on some routes.

On the other side, of course, is there may not be the super-cheap deals you can get if you know your way around the ticketing sites.

It has been mentioned, I think, and I agree. Part of the reason for the complexities of tickets are the differing requirements of different TOC's which have led to more 'TOC only' tickets. Fare discrepancies have also increased because of the way that pricing works, making splitting more common to get better fares.

 

[Beveridges]

I think we wouldn't have seen the recent rise of the Class 68/70/newer designs under BR, which have come from FOCs getting competitive trying to get that extra advantage over each other.

I believe we wouldn't have all these classes 60/90/92 in storage under BR. The 86s would have been withdrawn as 90s/92 would have been cascaded down onto their work. Similarly the 60s would have found work in other departments as opposed to the situation (until recently) where most were in store as EWS/DB would not sell them to competitors.

 

[DownSouth]

The Class 66 was and is a great locomotive, but the Class 66 came out of a tiny order of Class 59 locomotives from the late 80s.

Which in itself was a variant of the SD40-2, of which well over 4,000 were built for service on six continents (Antarctica has no railways) before the first one with a body for Britain was built. There's no better example of relying on proven technology than that!

 

[Carlisle]

The likes of Brush and English Electric had gone bust,

I don't think Brush have gone bust ? I know it's had several different owners over the years and clearly nothing like the major player it once was ,did they decide to withdraw completlely from train design/building after the class 60 and 92 manufacturing era due to lack of orders /cash ?

 

[142056]

It has been mentioned, I think, and I agree. Part of the reason for the complexities of tickets are the differing requirements of different TOC's which have led to more 'TOC only' tickets. Fare discrepancies have also increased because of the way that pricing works, making splitting more common to get better fares.

Despite the Italian system still being nationalised (mostly) their fare system isn't exactly easy. A journey involving Regionale and either Intercity/Le Frecce will involve two tickets, and in my limited experience if they weren't booked separately you wouldn't benefit from the cheaper prices available on the Le Frecce part.
Though you can 'start short' on their "advance" fares, so flexibility there. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[WatcherZero]

However if passengers numbers had doubled (and revenue) as has happened in Northern Ireland anyway with BR's lower cost base how much Govt money would be gong into the railway anyway? The growth in the last 20 years is down to external factors anyway so BR would have benefited too - anyway remember passenger numbers were increasing before privatization.

People forget the Irish example doesnt really stand up a nationalised comparison, it had two massive injections of cash over the last decade in 2001 and 2008 principally not to stimulate growth but to stem the losses via a modernisation and route closure program. However it still had declining usage until the middle of the decade, more than a decade longer than occured in Britain and disproving the idea that privatisation and growth in the UK was a coincidence. They were still closing lines and cutting services during the 2000's.

 

[Jonny]

I don't think Brush have gone bust ? I know it's had several different owners over the years and clearly nothing like the major player it once was ,did they decide to withdraw completlely from train design/building after the class 60 and 92 manufacturing era due to lack of orders /cash ?

They're still going... doing refurbs...

Their page is http://www.brushtraction.com/

 

[SpacePhoenix]

We would probably have had all EMUs being able to work with each other in service (and not just in an emergency or ECS moves) and the same for DMUs. Probably set standards for couplings (the physical and the electrical), standard TMS software, etc

 

[nottinghamcity]

Brush still have a major presence in Loughborough, ostensively now manufacturing electrical machines and transformers.

 

[yorksrob]

People forget the Irish example doesnt really stand up a nationalised comparison, it had two massive injections of cash over the last decade in 2001 and 2008 principally not to stimulate growth but to stem the losses via a modernisation and route closure program. However it still had declining usage until the middle of the decade, more than a decade longer than occured in Britain and disproving the idea that privatisation and growth in the UK was a coincidence. They were still closing lines and cutting services during the 2000's.

Which routes has NIR closed over the past decade ?

With regard to massive Government cash injections, surely that makes it a particularly pertinent comparison to the rest of the UK.

 

[Greenback]

Despite the Italian system still being nationalised (mostly) their fare system isn't exactly easy. A journey involving Regionale and either Intercity/Le Frecce will involve two tickets, and in my limited experience if they weren't booked separately you wouldn't benefit from the cheaper prices available on the Le Frecce part.
Though you can 'start short' on their "advance" fares, so flexibility there. Swings and roundabouts.

It's a bit off topic but I have found the Italian fares system simple and easy to understand whenever I've used them in Italy. Though that's not to say I haven't come across ticket machines that are not easy to use! I confess I had a bit of trouble in Como Lago Di Nord in working out what ticket I should buy for Milan, but that was probably down to my poor Italian and inability to find an English option!

Quite what a foreign visitor makes of our fares system I don't know, but I would guess the majority are utterly bewildered by the range of tickets and restrictions!

Which routes has NIR closed over the past decade ?

Yes, I would like to know the answer to that one too!

With regard to massive Government cash injections, surely that makes it a particularly pertinent comparison to the rest of the UK.

Quite. I'd also like to see a more precise definition of massive, so that some sort of comparison can be made with the rest of the UK. Would the government funding there by greater or lesser (by any measurement) than the money being paid to subsidise services in Scotland and Wales, for instance?

 

[GatwickDepress]

As far as I know, the closest NIR has done to closure is suspended passenger services running between Antrim and Lisburn, because the line between Antrim and Bleach Green was reopened and that provided a quicker journey.

 

[Greenback]

As far as I know, the closest NIR has done to closure is suspended passenger services running between Antrim and Lisburn, because the line between Antrim and Bleach Green was reopened and that provided a quicker journey.

Indeed, which most people recognised as an improvement at the time.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Indeed, which most people recognised as an improvement at the time.

Definitely. I'm sure the only people who grumble now are a few track bashers. Speaking of which, is the line still maintained to a running standard and used for crew training, etc, or has it been left to rack and ruin?

 

[ac6000cw]

The freight operators had restricted choice in the marketplace- they could buy a locomotive from General Motors or, er, General Motors. The likes of Brush and English Electric had gone bust, so there was no choice.

The Class 66 was and is a great locomotive, but the Class 66 came out of a tiny order of Class 59 locomotives from the late 80s.

Brush and English Electric became part of larger companies, they didn't go bust. EE became part of GEC (along with AEI and others), then GEC-Alstom. As part of Alstom, the site at Preston is still involved in electric traction equipment. Brush has been owned by Hawker-Siddeley, BTR, FKI and (currently) Wabtec over the last 60 years.

I agree with Bill Stanier - while it's slightly sad (speaking as someone who spends their working hours as an electronics design engineer) that the recent loco purchases are designed and built outside the UK, the reality is that if you are buying small quantities of something that you need to work 'out of the box' then you have to play safe and buy a proven product if possible. (Yes, I know the 70's have had their problems, but GE was forced to use a different diesel engine to squeeze that much power into our loading gauge - an ES44AC would need a very serious diet to fit here )

It cuts both ways - if you want a reliable freight diesel at a sensible price then go shopping at EMD or GE in the US (because they make more of them than anyone else), if you want an electric loco then go shopping at Siemens or Bombardier in Europe (as the US passenger operators have been doing for a while). And the latest EMD US passenger diesel - the F125 - was designed by Vossloh in Spain...

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Getting back to the main topic of the thread, I suspect there would be less freight - under BR railfreight was meant to be a commercial operation, and they were getting quite hard-nosed about dropping flows on routes that need significant infrastructure expenditure e.g. in my area the Fen Drayton sand trains (to Kings Cross) and all traffic to/from Kings Lynn port were abandoned under BR for that reason. I also think that the the Boston line would be Sprinter-only by now, and so might the S&C.

 

[Cambus731]

At the risk of sounding a little pedantic, the railway doesn't exist in a bubble.
If the railway wasn't privatised then surely we would have to assume that Labour would have won the 1992 General Election.
That certainly would have halted privatisation in its tracks, and BR would have continued down the Sectorisation road.
And for a while there may well have been more money forthcoming from the Treasury for various purposes.

But, Black/Bright Wednesday would still have happened when the UK crashed out of the ERM and that may well have had a detrimental effect at laest for a while on finances for the railway and could conceivably have stopped or at least postponed IC2520 as well as other projects.

Labour probably would then have lost the next General Election in 1996 or 1997 and the Conservatives would have been back in power, although I suspect that after some re-evaluation during their 4/5 years in opposition, BR privatisation would have been dropped.
That's as far as I am going to take this alternative timeline as it would get harder and harder to say what would happen next.
I really don't know if EU directive 91/440 would have been adhered to or ignored.
I do believe the 1992-1997 government used that as a handy excuse anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

Brush and English Electric became part of larger companies, they didn't go bust. EE became part of GEC (along with AEI and others), then GEC-Alstom. As part of Alstom, the site at Preston is still involved in electric traction equipment. Brush has been owned by Hawker-Siddeley, BTR, FKI and (currently) Wabtec over the last 60 years.

I agree with Bill Stanier - while it's slightly sad (speaking as someone who spends their working hours as an electronics design engineer) that the recent loco purchases are designed and built outside the UK, the reality is that if you are buying small quantities of something that you need to work 'out of the box' then you have to play safe and buy a proven product if possible. (Yes, I know the 70's have had their problems, but GE was forced to use a different diesel engine to squeeze that much power into our loading gauge - an ES44AC would need a very serious diet to fit here )

It cuts both ways - if you want a reliable freight diesel at a sensible price then go shopping at EMD or GE in the US (because they make more of them than anyone else), if you want an electric loco then go shopping at Siemens or Bombardier in Europe (as the US passenger operators have been doing for a while). And the latest EMD US passenger diesel - the F125 - was designed by Vossloh in Spain...

That might well be the case for freight loco's, but the UK train manufacturing industry also encompassed passenger rolling stock (a rather larger market). Surely the strategic benefits of continuity of supply, continual development of components through different rolling stock types and compatability of parts are rather more important in this case.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Definitely. I'm sure the only people who grumble now are a few track bashers. Speaking of which, is the line still maintained to a running standard and used for crew training, etc, or has it been left to rack and ruin?

The line via Crumlin is maintained well and is still used for passenger diversions once or twice a year when the line out via Mossley West is closed. Whilst it may be quicker from Belfast, it lost the quicker connections from Newry, Portadown and Lurgan, and direct journeys from Lisburn. The line also passes within spitting distance of Belfast International, which could open up a whole realm of prospects for the line.
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However looking back at WatcherZero's post I believe they could have been inferring more towards the Republic - places like Docklands, M3 Parkway, Nenagh, and the WCR etc have all fallen relatively flat on their faces within the last five years, let alone decade. For the last decade also services have been chopped and changed constantly year after year to save costs and give an optimum service on as least trains as possible.

 

[Greenback]

The only line I know of that has been closed in RoI is the Waterford to Rosslare line. So it still doesn't justify the closing lines bit, particularly as there have also been reopenings, regardless of how successful some of them have turned out to be.

 

[ac6000cw]

That might well be the case for freight loco's, but the UK train manufacturing industry also encompassed passenger rolling stock (a rather larger market). Surely the strategic benefits of continuity of supply, continual development of components through different rolling stock types and compatibility of parts are rather more important in this case.

The big problem at the outset of privatisation was the dearth of orders for nearly three years - but I suspect the structure of the rolling stock industry wouldn't have looked so different by now. As far as I remember, BR was already committed to rationalising and selling off BREL, and even back then Derby was the main plant (and design office) for new build. (York built EMU's, but I think politics rather than needing the capacity was more important in keeping it alive).

If BR was still building trains, I'm sure it would be sourcing a lot of the value in them from outside component suppliers all over Europe, just like Bombardier and Siemens do - it's globalisation at work....(and we still have significant component suppliers in the UK). So your component development happens that way e.g. Knorr-Bremse (ex-Westinghouse) in Melksham is a leading supplier of railway braking and other equipment around the world.

 

[Manchester77]

If privatisation hadn't happened then today would have just been a regular day with no big announcements!

 

[Greenback]

And we would have less to talk about in general not just today! I suspect the fares section would be far less busy than it is now!

 

[ac6000cw]

If privatisation hadn't happened then today would have just been a regular day with no big announcements!

- yes, it's certainly given us all more to chat about....

Overall, given EU rules and UK politics, I think we would have ended up with a situation like Germany, with a state-owned infrastructure company (maybe called 'Network Rail' ), a BR TOC (which would probably run most of the 'Inter-City' services), contracted-out services in the ex-PTE areas (some of them provided by BR TOC) and maybe an enlarged 'London Overground' as controlling authority for parts of the old Network Southeast area (with contracted-out services).

The interesting part would be what happened to the 'country' parts of Regional Railways, and the outer reaches of Network Southeast.

(Scotland and Wales would control their own service areas due to devolution, of course)

Oh, and railfreight would have been sold off, and RES stagger along until either Royal Mail pulled out or BR had to buy new equipment, at which point they would have decided it wasn't a viable business long term.

 

[Carlisle]

People forget the Irish example doesnt really stand up a nationalised comparison, it had two massive injections of cash over the last decade in 2001 and 2008 principally not to stimulate growth but to stem the losses via a modernisation and route closure program. However it still had declining usage until the middle of the decade, more than a decade longer than occured in Britain and disproving the idea that privatisation and growth in the UK was a coincidence. They were still closing lines and cutting services during the 2000's.

Maybe some reasons for the above might be that Ireland has a bit more of a rural economy, less people and fewer very major urban centres compared to Britain .Given that most of its rural lines closed many years ago I would imagine much of the country had little choice but to become very much bus & car/road orientated, leading to more gradual change in the opposite direction

 

[yorksrob]

The big problem at the outset of privatisation was the dearth of orders for nearly three years - but I suspect the structure of the rolling stock industry wouldn't have looked so different by now. As far as I remember, BR was already committed to rationalising and selling off BREL, and even back then Derby was the main plant (and design office) for new build. (York built EMU's, but I think politics rather than needing the capacity was more important in keeping it alive).

As I've argued before on the forum, I think the key is the dearth of orders. Britain is actually quite a large market for rolling stock, and I don't think it's an accident that decline set in after this politically generated gap in orders, even though the marketeers do their best to divert attention to broader economic theory.
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The interesting part would be what happened to the 'country' parts of Regional Railways, and the outer reaches of Network Southeast.

That's an interesting question.

The rejuvenation of RR was rather the unfinished business of BR, although I'm inclined to think of sectorisation as the masterstroke that set it free. By this, I mean it gave the sector a purpose in its own right, rather than continually being seen as the dead wood, forever to be hacked away at. I think the various sprinter introductions point to an optimistic outlook of these routes at the time.

 

[goatie]

cost of staff wages would not have flown sky high if it had stayed as public owned company.
good for the staff whose pay has gone up, but bad for the company as a whole

 

[DT611]

I believe they could have been inferring more towards the Republic - places like Docklands, M3 Parkway, Nenagh, and the WCR etc have all fallen relatively flat on their faces within the last five years, let alone decade.

M3 Parkway was supposed to be extended back to navan, a line that should never have been closed in the first place in my opinion, the WRC, its slow, stops at places of small population and the reversal in athenry takes up time, a rail service between limerick and galway is viable but just not with the current line, the likes of Nenagh and rosslare waterford while they never were going to have much usership they were left to their own devices, no improvements, no promotion or little of it, they were more or less retained for the freight and the passenger service left to rot along with the infrastructure

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think if the railways hadn't been privatised there'd be a lot more DOO than present, and possibly even some GOO.