Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire

[Dee54321]

The "ah, you're just jealous" argument about anyone who thinks that free train travel for all pensioners in South Yorkshire (plus services to West Yorkshire) seems a strange one - I just think that it's an unfunded scheme that's unsustainable and has caused a number of other bus services to be withdrawn (or staff made redundant) as the PTE struggle to pay for all of these "free" journeys.

If we can't have an opinion on something being a poor use of public money without someone throwing the "bitter" argument around then there's no point in trying to have a discussion

What about disabled people? You seemed to have missed my point, or do you have objection to them too!

 

[radamfi]

Transdev agreed extra money from NYCC

See, the reimbursement rate seems to be a finger in the air job. How do we know whether the rate is fair? The operator will always complain that they aren't getting enough. The only way of fixing this properly is by replacing commercial services with gross-cost tendering.

A few years ago, GMPTE (as it was known then) were proposing to remove all subsidy for concessionary passes. However, operators were still obliged to offer free travel. This would have caused mass deregistrations. GMPTE would have therefore been able to use the money saved to replace these services with tendered routes, and therefore get de facto control of most of the bus network. So what is stopping authorities from doing this, or at least cutting reimbursement rates to a very low level?

 

[Tetchytyke]

But how much does the operator actually receive, or is that some kind of commercial secret? I would have thought, from an operator's point of view, that it was better to have a bus full of seventy pensioners paying nothing and the operator receiving whatever the council see fit to distribute than a bus full of fresh air with maybe a dozen people paying a fare.

The reimbursement rate is based on that bus with a dozen people on it, though, with a negligible additional amount for "additional wear and tear". Only in "exceptional circumstances" will additional capacity be paid for. Obviously Transdev played hard-ball with NYCC to be considered as an exceptional circumstances, which is fair enough given that they've had to convert all their routes to double decker to cope with the free passholders.

I don't think ENCTS rates are a commercial secret, but they're by local authority and I can't find them published. DfT do publish BSOG payments though.

What about disabled people? You seemed to have missed my point, or do you have objection to them too!

What about disabled people? Without wishing to sound too callous, those who have mobility difficulties already receive money to help them with travel costs, that's what the mobility component of DLA is for.

 

[natureboy]

As a disabled user, it's fantastic that the pass has been reinstated as before. Disabled people suffer enough hardships in life, to be honest national free travel on all transport wouldn't be unfair, but I'm aware this will never happen. I'm quite content I can use any bus free in the country, free trains in South Yorkshire and to West Yorkshire. Anyone who thinks this is unfair, is probably just jealous, trust me you have nothing to be jealous about.

National free travel? Good grief! What more do you want? And I'm not jealous. I'm just fed up of having to subsidise this kind of thing. Don't forget, someone ultimately has to pay! Why can't you contribute something?
While I don't expect you to pay full fare, I do think you should pay half fare after 09:30. I have a relative who is disabled and he agrees with this because he hates others thinking of him as a freeloader.

 

[ECML180]

Disabled people suffer enough hardships in life, to be honest national free travel on all transport wouldn't be unfair,

But why would it be fair? Giving disabled people free lottery tickets would probably be a benefit too but I don't see a reason for it!

Integrating into the community and living as normal life as possible is the aim of policies like ENCTS, which in economics is about improving mobility and reducing social exclusion. So provide local travel, yes! Regional travel, maybe. National travel...not really...why would it be important to allow the disabled (or the elderly) to travel across the country? A benefit, yes, to a group who suffer a lot of hardship, but not one targeted to resolve any issues as far as I can see.

We would be much better funding a good, accessible, public transport network with free passes for those who need them locally. Also thought should be given to paying operators per pass, giving an incentive to provide customer focused services.

 

[RT4038]

A few years ago, GMPTE (as it was known then) were proposing to remove all subsidy for concessionary passes. However, operators were still obliged to offer free travel. This would have caused mass deregistrations. GMPTE would have therefore been able to use the money saved to replace these services with tendered routes, and therefore get de facto control of most of the bus network. So what is stopping authorities from doing this, or at least cutting reimbursement rates to a very low level?

Operators are obliged to offer free travel to ENCTS passholders (only) and GMPTE/Local Authorities are obliged to compensate operators 'no better/no worse' than if there were no scheme in existence. Therein lies the rub, because how is that determined? How many passholders would make their journeys if they had to pay full fare for the journey? The last time (in most areas) pensioners got no concession at all was probably 40 years ago, and, even if detailed statistics still existed [which they don't], the demographics of bus ridership has completely changed since then. So Central Government published a formula, some Authorities paid this and some were more generous; the large Bus Companies appealed the basis of the formula and the lawyers and consultants had a fine time. After a few years of claim and counter claim, agreements were grudgingly reached in many areas and bus companies cut their cloth accordingly. Those Authorities who were generous to start with (inter alia Cornwall and Wales), will then have been criticised by their Auditors comparing them with other Authorities and have started to cut their rates, and the bus companies reacting accordingly. This is what we are seeing now in Wales.

 

[WillPS]

How might we change ENCTS?

My own proposal would be for:

Within ten route miles of home postcode (done as like N16, LS1, M8, etc) which could involve crossing into another county, or (if longer) to the nearest market town/supermarket: free bus travel at off peak times.

Within home county/council area: 50% off bus fares at all times.

Across England: 33% off bus, rail and tram fares off peak.

All the above to apply to elderly (age 62+), eligible disabled, and jobseekers

Discuss and pull to pieces

When I went to school, I was issued with a pass (the same style of the pre-ENCTS OAP passes of the time) which had clearly the destinations it was valid between (in my case the name of my school and the nearest Main Road to my home).

I think the 10 mile radius thing would be hard to enforce, but if you only allowed travel within the *counties* within a 10 mile radius, then you might prevent some of the ENCTS tourism that goes on.

Surely having passes marked as:
Valid within: "Nottingham, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire" wouldn't be too much faff for the issuing body and drivers?

Hell, you can even regionalise and have say: "The East Midlands" or "The East Midlands & Hertfordshire" or something like that.

 

[neilmc]

When I went to school, I was issued with a pass (the same style of the pre-ENCTS OAP passes of the time) which had clearly the destinations it was valid between (in my case the name of my school and the nearest Main Road to my home).

I think the 10 mile radius thing would be hard to enforce, but if you only allowed travel within the *counties* within a 10 mile radius, then you might prevent some of the ENCTS tourism that goes on.

Surely having passes marked as:
Valid within: "Nottingham, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire" wouldn't be too much faff for the issuing body and drivers?

Hell, you can even regionalise and have say: "The East Midlands" or "The East Midlands & Hertfordshire" or something like that.

Horribly unwieldy and likely to lead to a lot of arguments now that pensioners have got used to the fact they can go anywhere for free. For example, the above pass might not be much use if you live in Glossop, Derbyshire where all the transport options lead into Greater Manchester.

Personally I LOVE the fact that the largely Conservative shire counties, which historically have been meanest with their own pensioners and also tend to have the most seaside resorts and towns of character, now have to foot the bill for the downtrodden elderly masses who've managed to get away to the seaside for a week and want a few free rides to while away the days. The counties are going mad, but the Conservatives nationally know that the elderly are a very well-organised and determined interest group with lots of campaigning time and taking away their free passes would be a huge vote-loser amongst a group which are reliable voters. Master-stroke from Gordon Brown!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Horribly unwieldy and likely to lead to a lot of arguments now that pensioners have got used to the fact they can go anywhere for free. For example, the above pass might not be much use if you live in Glossop, Derbyshire where all the transport options lead into Greater Manchester.

The High Peak service 61 bus that I took recently from Glossop to Buxton did not enter into Greater Manchester at any time of its journey, to the best of my knowledge, when it passed through Hayfield, New Mills and Whaley Bridge en route to Buxton.

 

[Robertj21a]

Horribly unwieldy and likely to lead to a lot of arguments now that pensioners have got used to the fact they can go anywhere for free. For example, the above pass might not be much use if you live in Glossop, Derbyshire where all the transport options lead into Greater Manchester.

Personally I LOVE the fact that the largely Conservative shire counties, which historically have been meanest with their own pensioners and also tend to have the most seaside resorts and towns of character, now have to foot the bill for the downtrodden elderly masses who've managed to get away to the seaside for a week and want a few free rides to while away the days. The counties are going mad, but the Conservatives nationally know that the elderly are a very well-organised and determined interest group with lots of campaigning time and taking away their free passes would be a huge vote-loser amongst a group which are reliable voters. Master-stroke from Gordon Brown!

.
There's nothing wrong with the idea in itself and most/all political parties accept that. The problem is the overall funding for it and, more importantly, the transfer of that responsibility to the local councils without adequate recompense.

Robert

 

[Bill Stanier]

Maybe local councils would have adequate recompense if they were even a bit efficient.

People I know who (briefly!) worked there have horrific tales of lazy backwaters where not much gets done, council politics outweighing efficiency moves, excessive PC costing millions etc.

Our local authority was set to spend upwards of ten thousand pounds on a new mayoral chain because the name of the Authority had changed from that shown on the existing chain! The local press got hold of it and there was a predictable outcry from council-tax squeezed residents!

The council dropped the proposal under overpowering public pressure, but one has to ask what sort of self-serving mindset these council folk must have to even have contemplated such a purchase in the first place, with so many REAL demands on council funds.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The council dropped the proposal under overpowering public pressure, but one has to ask what sort of self-serving mindset these council folk must have to even have contemplated such a purchase in the first place, with so many REAL demands on council funds.

The storyline in "Animal Farm" where pigs had assumed total control and were feasting on the finest food and drink and having no end of fripperies to meet all of their own personal whims, at the same time as the rest of the animals were on basic rations, speaks volumes about the "mindset" to which you allude above

 

[34D]

When I went to school, I was issued with a pass (the same style of the pre-ENCTS OAP passes of the time) which had clearly the destinations it was valid between (in my case the name of my school and the nearest Main Road to my home).

I think the 10 mile radius thing would be hard to enforce, but if you only allowed travel within the *counties* within a 10 mile radius, then you might prevent some of the ENCTS tourism that goes on.

Surely having passes marked as:
Valid within: "Nottingham, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire" wouldn't be too much faff for the issuing body and drivers?

Hell, you can even regionalise and have say: "The East Midlands" or "The East Midlands & Hertfordshire" or something like that.

Better yet, use ITSO. From the boarding point, the pass prompts for destination, then either prompts for a fare (at the relevant discount rate) or allows free travel.

Ditto entry and exit readers.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The High Peak service 61 bus that I took recently from Glossop to Buxton did not enter into Greater Manchester at any time of its journey, to the best of my knowledge, when it passed through Hayfield, New Mills and Whaley Bridge en route to Buxton.

That 61 remains in Derbyshire all the time with the interesting senario at Newtown where it brushes the border of East Cheshire.

 

[Robertj21a]

Maybe local councils would have adequate recompense if they were even a bit efficient.

People I know who (briefly!) worked there have horrific tales of lazy backwaters where not much gets done, council politics outweighing efficiency moves, excessive PC costing millions etc.

Our local authority was set to spend upwards of ten thousand pounds on a new mayoral chain because the name of the Authority had changed from that shown on the existing chain! The local press got hold of it and there was a predictable outcry from council-tax squeezed residents!

The council dropped the proposal under overpowering public pressure, but one has to ask what sort of self-serving mindset these council folk must have to even have contemplated such a purchase in the first place, with so many REAL demands on council funds.

I thought it must be just me with horror stories about local councils and their inefficiency, poor management, time wasting, outdated practices, surplus staff, inflated salaries and pensions etc etc - trouble is once you get me started I find that there's so much that I find it difficult to stop.........

Robert

 

[neilmc]

That 61 remains in Derbyshire all the time with the interesting senario at Newtown where it brushes the border of East Cheshire.

Ah right, I'd missed this! I'd always assumed Glossop was out on a limb and had all its public transport connections via Greater Manchester.

 

[34D]

I thought it must be just me with horror stories about local councils and their inefficiency, poor management, time wasting, outdated practices, surplus staff, inflated salaries and pensions etc etc - trouble is once you get me started I find that there's so much that I find it difficult to stop.........

Robert

Ditto the railways?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought it must be just me with horror stories about local councils and their inefficiency, poor management, time wasting, outdated practises, surplus staff, inflated salaries and pensions etc etc - trouble is once you get me started I find that there's so much that I find it difficult to stop.........

Robert

Surely the South Yorkshire Autonomous Oblast will have its ruling proletariat vetted so as not to be seen to be in any way linked to what you say above..:roll:

 

[Bayum]

National free travel? Good grief! What more do you want? And I'm not jealous. I'm just fed up of having to subsidise this kind of thing. Don't forget, someone ultimately has to pay! Why can't you contribute something?
While I don't expect you to pay full fare, I do think you should pay half fare after 09:30. I have a relative who is disabled and he agrees with this because he hates others thinking of him as a freeloader.

Judging by your previous comments, I do feel the need to point out that were there less people who think the way you do, then no-one would think your uncle a free-loader.

Disabled people as well as the elderly pay their taxes as well you know. They may get free travel but they aren't exempt from everything.

I suggest you have a read up on why varying demographics pay for and contribute before reeling off twaddle from some script in your head.

 

[ivanhoe]

I thought it must be just me with horror stories about local councils and their inefficiency, poor management, time wasting, outdated practices, surplus staff, inflated salaries and pensions etc etc - trouble is once you get me started I find that there's so much that I find it difficult to stop.........

Robert

And which icon of efficiency are you working in then? Hope you are not going to say something silly like the railways or some organisation that is 100% dependent on public funding! I also suspect your newspaper of choice is the daily Mail but I would not hold that against you!

 

[Robertj21a]

And which icon of efficiency are you working in then? Hope you are not going to say something silly like the railways or some organisation that is 100% dependent on public funding! I also suspect your newspaper of choice is the daily Mail but I would not hold that against you!

Not sure how you come up with such odd conclusions but you're certainly 100% incorrect on all counts !

Robert

 

[neilmc]

Why all this "hate mail" about freeloaders?

My father-in-law is almost 80 years old. He has worked and paid taxes all his life and runs a car, but his driving standards are deteriorating with age. He lives near Chesterfield and we live in Manchester, and any car journey between the two towns is arduous and full of dangerous corners, hairpin bends, etc, unless you take a very long way around by motorway.

Now he could catch the train, but even with a railcard this is expensive and not a direct journey.

Or he could go on the bus. To be exact, four buses. Admittedly it talkes rather a long time but that is a commodity he has plenty of. At one time this would have been a poor choice since he could have used a local authority pass to give him half fare within Derbyshire but he would have had to pay full fare once over the GM border. Now he goes for free, he is not depriving anyone of a seat since these buses largely transport around empty seats and he's not polluting the environment or putting himself and others in danger by driving.

Occasionally he might have a day out in somewhere like Sheffield or Nottingham; he has to use his mind to work out the connections and use his feet to walk around the town he's visited. This we would encourage of course as being of mental and physical value compared to sitting at home reluctant to afford the high costs of public transport in the UK.

Fortunately I think we've had the major beefs and scare-mongering and posturing from councils and bus operators - I simply can't see any national political party withdrawing such a great concession from people who, on the whole, have worked hard all their lives and have got some deserved free time. And I think the problems e.g. with the over-full Yorkshire Coastliner are a very small number of services.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The scheme could well be upgraded as times goes on, but with most hardcore left wing nutcases (as in South Yorkshire and north east Derbyshire) they'll want everything free and they'll want it as it is.

A mate of mine is disabled, has the ENCT pass but he actually pays on some bus services as he sees it as 'if I didn't pay the service could well be withdrawn' I don't blame him.

 

[natureboy]

Why all this "hate mail" about freeloaders?

My father-in-law is almost 80 years old. He has worked and paid taxes all his life and runs a car, but his driving standards are deteriorating with age. He lives near Chesterfield and we live in Manchester, and any car journey between the two towns is arduous and full of dangerous corners, hairpin bends, etc, unless you take a very long way around by motorway.

Now he could catch the train, but even with a railcard this is expensive and not a direct journey.

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight!

 

[cjp]

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight!

Expensive should only be judged from the perspective of wealth or income; not from a moral high horse.

eg JSA compared to say a politician's resources.​

 

[Deerfold]

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight!

Neilmc said he lives *near* Chesterfield - so presumably the first part of his journey is getting *to* Chesterfield.

 

[ModernRailways]

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight!

£13.55 would be expensive to me right now. There will be a lot of disabled/elderly people who won't have that £13.55 left out of their pension/benefits and so would have to either use any savings they have or make a trip every once in a while meaning they won't get out as much which in turn could end up putting more pressure on the NHS as people don't get fresh air or exercise!

 

[neilmc]

£13:55 expensive? I don't think so! That's what it costs from Chesterfield to Manchester with a railcard. [It's £20:50 without] And, East Midlands Trains do run an hourly direct service (via Sheffield) which takes about an hour and a quarter. So I think you ought to get your facts straight!

Sorry but I think that IS expensive, given that he would have to pay for a railcard first and then hope he could make enough journeys to get the use out of it. Of course, if pensioners were given free rail travel across the country like they are in Hungary ...

 

[brompton rail]

Sorry but I think that IS expensive, given that he would have to pay for a railcard first and then hope he could make enough journeys to get the use out of it. Of course, if pensioners were given free rail travel across the country like they are in Hungary ...

Hum! I travelled this morning on a 20 minute (32 miles) journey Doncaster to York for £12.30 Day Return with Railčard. (£18.45 without R/C). Mind you the bus ride to the station - 4 miles' 25 mins cost £2.60. And I don't consider either to be EXPENSIVE,though not CHEAP either.

An observation - people do not appreciate things they get for free. They come to regard them as a right.

 

[RogerB]

^^

Perhaps "unaffordable" would be a better description than "expensive". If people can afford something they're less likely to regard it as expensive than those who can't afford it.

I very much appreciate(d) the rail travel concession on my bus pass, and it was a right. Nobody likes having rights taken away, why should they?