Greenback, you seem rather damning of any positive posts on this. I don't think anyone is under any illusions that this proposal is both very costly and unlikely to actually occur. However surely the point of a forum such as this is to allow people to explore wold dream possibilities and think what might be? Can't you lighten up a little please? Ta.
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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Cilcewydd just south of Welshpool over the Severn now double track on bridge again. It didn't collapse or flood just needed work on scouring damage, passengers were walked across the bridge from the trains that stopped at two temporary platforms either side of bridge.
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There's all of an average of 3 passengers per train doing Cambrian to South Wales despite the prioritisation of connections at Shrewsbury for the last ten years.
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No flooding Paul wrong line you thinking of Ruabon to Barmouth?
Much greater intermediate population along the mid wales line Llanidloes, Rhayader, Builth Wells, Brecon.
Blamethrower
Member
He is just being realistic to be fair, the tangible ROI would be minimal for a project such as this and so is very unlikely to happen.
but we can dream
eMeS
Member
My late father was on the board of a hotel business in the Colwyn Bay area when the A55 was built, and the shorter travel times from their traditional customer base in the North West meant that many visitors could now do the trip in one day, making B&B redundant. They business closed.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Lovely idea , unless we had Norway's cash reserves , impractical.
As a very young boy I remeber an Aberystwyth holiday - and while my dad as fishing in the Rheidol my embryonic / latent railway planning kicked in so I watched a few (there were very few) trains leave Aber. This was in high summer and they were deserted traffic wise. The first one of Carmarthen carried (in this era) 2 or so passengers from origin and by Aber had accrued around 40 journeys for a 4 car steam hauled train. A railway man I knew later on - admitted he could maintain his smallholding at Llanilar between trains....
As a very young boy I remeber an Aberystwyth holiday - and while my dad as fishing in the Rheidol my embryonic / latent railway planning kicked in so I watched a few (there were very few) trains leave Aber. This was in high summer and they were deserted traffic wise. The first one of Carmarthen carried (in this era) 2 or so passengers from origin and by Aber had accrued around 40 journeys for a 4 car steam hauled train. A railway man I knew later on - admitted he could maintain his smallholding at Llanilar between trains....
pablo
Member
Politically, Wales needs tying together without relying on the greatest way around.
Ireland is doing such a re-opening in the far west of Ireland. How are they justifying and paying for it?
Ireland is doing such a re-opening in the far west of Ireland. How are they justifying and paying for it?
We're talking about an extremely deprived area with appalling transport links. The whole area that the line would run through has been objective 1 for years (EU measure of poverty), and it's the poorest area in northern Europe. A railway line would be vital in putting the area on the map and encouraging industry, so that jobs are created and local people can stay in the area rather than having to leave. With some new alignments and line speed improvements, there could be an Aberystwyth-Cardiff time of 3 hours, which is over an hour faster than at present. Many of the stations would act as parkway stations, serving the surrounding areas as well. There's universities at Aberystwyth, Lampeter and Carmarthen, with rail links from there to Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Trefforest. There's also links to the possible space-port at Llanbedr and potentially to Bangor also. University towns create a lot of travel: Aberystwyth is the busiest station on the Cambrian and it almost fills a 2-car dmu on a regular basis on its own! Money - Wales should get 5% of the HS2 budget if Barnett was applied in an unbiased way, and this ought to be spent on rail infrastructure. It would also be a much better way of spending the EU's objective 1 money. Wales suffered disproportionately from the Beeching cuts - the BBC reporter even says so in the archive footage - it's time to reconnect the West
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I feel that flooding once affected this line in the area of Llanilar where the River Ystwyth is situated. What would be the required infrastructural works to combat a repeat of that occurrence?
Aberystwyth-Bangor is frequently 2.5 hours by car, more like 4 hours by bus, and the road (especially the A487 as far as Cross Foxes near Dolgellau) is appalling - one lane each way, very very winding, extremely dangerous, impossible to get up to an intercity speed safely. The Porthmadog to Bangor stretch (parallel to Afon Wen-Bangor) is much better, but still takes a very long time
The Planner
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How many miles was/is the route? 80 odd? If you equate it to the costs of the Borders railway at 300mill for about 30 miles you are looking at £800 million comparatively for this. Over a 60 year pay back thats £13.3 million a year, even if you got the cost down to £600 million thats £10 million a year. Thats a massive subsidy bucket.
And assumes the route pays for it's own operating costs, including interest on that £600-800m. Which is rather unlikely to say the least.
eMeS
Member
I'm based near Junction 14 on the M1, but have family in mid-Wales so know the A470 somewhat.
From Cardiff to Merthyr Tydfil it's busy and it's dual carriageway. No real problems. From Merthyr to Brecon it's single carriageway through some outstanding scenery. There's a short dual carriageway round Brecon. From Brecon to Llangurig, I'm less familiar with it but some improvements have been made. Rhayader isn't traffic friendly. From Llangurig towards Caersws it's single carriageway - good scenery again, straightish in places with verges, and from Caersws towards Machynlleth it's simply awful. The problem is that it's single carriageway but here the verges are non-existent in many places, so that if you do need to take avoiding action, it's into a stone wall or high bank. The road plays ducks and drakes with the railway. (The railway got the straight route.) The locals "know" the road, and seem to me totally oblivious of the dangers - but many are driving Land-rovers etc...
I always feel relieved to get home safely.
pablo
Member
About fourteen years ago I drove from Newport (SW) to Caernarfon (for Amlwch) in a direct line. It took 9 to 5:30 and I encountered 13 temporary one-way traffic light controlled road works. Do you wonder that AMs fly to Cardiff in less than an hour?
Could build a Cambrian Coast Expressway for the money Bob reckons is wasted on WAGair.
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pablo
Member
For a minute, I thought you were referring to Alaska!
I was trying to be generous in my assessment and take into account upgrades that might be included as you have done in the last paragraph. Notions that this could be any sort of strategic solution for Cardiff to Bangor travel are misplaced!
I am, and I'm aware that this is rather unusual for me on the forum as I am usually quite prepared to consider things with an open mind.
I'll repeat, though, that I am a big supporter of rail travel, public trnapost in general and Wales. Even so, this scheme is not going to take place. The best we can hope for in terms of a Carmarthen to Aberystwyth repoening is for it to be considered and agree in a few decades time, when priorities may be somewhat different to those we have now.
I hope that those who are familiar with my posts will take my unusual directness int his thread of a sign of how unrealistic I view any proposal of reopening the line at this time.
Perhaps a few more may be enticed on to the rails with a more direct route, at least to south west Wales and as far as Swansea, but in my view it;s likely to be no more than a handful altogether making these type of journeys by train.
Indeed. It would be a far more realistic proposal than Carmarthen to Aberystwyth in terms of Bangor - Cardiff journeys. But still a massive amount of expenditure.
My view is that road schemes tend to take a lot of custom away from towns that are bypassed en route. It's much easier to stay on the main road until your ultimate destination and enjoy the delights of little chef and service stations instead.
Does it really need tying together, or is that just a political wish? Even if it does, does it have to be by way of a rail,line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth?
Are you sure that Ireland isn't beginning to regret the expenditure in the west? And how does tying together Ireland tie in with closing Waterford to Rosslare? And threatening closure of Waterford to Limerick Junction?
That's been tried as well and hasn't really been a roaring success.
Bevan, many thanks for digging these times out. I'm surprised by the 2h 12min Carmarthen - Aber timings - I'd have expected it to be in the 45-60 min range - it's only 50 miles - for a through train. Dynamic loops?
krus_aragon
Established Member
Righty-o, I'll talk you through a journey northbound from Cardiff to Bangor!
You'll start off driving north out of suburbia to the M4, by whichever route you choose, and then head northwards from J32 on the A470. If you avoid doing this part during rush hour, it's plain sailing. From here to Merthyr, it's a good two-lane dual carriageway, with grade separated junctions until Abercynon, then four or five roundabouts until you get to the far side of Merthyr. At this point, the road becomes a single carriageway, and you start gradually climbing the Upper Taff valley, slowing for a few villages as you climb up the Brecon Beacons.
At about 400m altitude, the road decends on the other side towards Brecon (magnificent views). A dual carriageway bypass of Brecon is your last opportunity to pass any lorries or caravans with ease. Now it's back to a fairly good standard of country A-road: gentle twists and curves that you can't see around on account of the hedgerows, but you only need to lift off by 10mph or so. The A470 bears left off the through road twice before you get to Builth, and there are as ever some more villages where you need to slow down to 40 or 30.
Builth Wells is a common pit-stop, as in addition to the outskirts of the town you drive past a Little Chef before the Showground. (Heavy traffic two weeks of the year, otherwise no trouble at all.) I tend to hold on a few more miles until the next town, Rhaeadr. Immediately north of Builth the road is recently improved with a new route cutting out a significant slalom session in days of yore. The narrow approach to the crossroads at its town centre can be tricky for HGVs, and you may find that you have to hold back to let oncoming traffic past. Out of the towns and villages, it's all rolling hills and countryside.
The road becomes a little harder on the driver from Rhaeadr onwards. Turns become a bit sharper, and the rolling hills start to encroach a bit more. Once again, there are several villages and small towns to slow down for, and another two occasion where you need to turn off to follow the A470. From Caersws to Cemmaes Road you'll be following the Cambrian Mainline westbound, and dancing over and under it at every opportunity. The overbridges tend to be perpendicular to the railway line, so you'll be slowing down for chicanes often. The villages and their speed restrictions feel more numerous here, too. Yet another roundabout where you have to be sure of turning the right way, as well.
The villages start to thin out again after Cemmaes Road, as you approach the foothills of Snowdonia. Having left Dinas Mawddwy you have a long hard climb up to Bwlch Oerddrws, as you cross the frontier into Gwynedd. It's a steep ascent in no higher than third gear, with some reverse bends at the top to make you second-guess whether you can keep going in your current gear or you need to change down. Driving a fully laden Luton Van this way while moving house was very, er, fun!
Dolgellau has a bypass running along the old railway line, but the town is well worth a visit if you want a pit stop or a little meal (and you didn't already call at the Little Chef south of the town). Due north of here used to be one of the worst parts of the entire drive, with a contraflow system in operation for months (or was it years) when the narrow twisty road's roadside barrier collapsed into the wooded river below. After much infrastructure spending, the black spot has been erased, but locals are now voicing concerns about the safety of the junctions either end of the town's bypass. That shouldn't trouble anyone driving straight through, though.
Having cleared the woods of Dolgellau, you'll feel you're driving along a mountain plateau on the way to Trawsfynydd. Good visibility, and long stretches of arrow straight road make this portion a joy. You now have a choice of route to take. Continuing ahead on the "trunk route" will take you onto the A487 through Porthmadog and Caernarfon. The approach to Porthmadog has a "seasidey" feel to it (with reason) and you get a chance to wave hello to the Ffestiniog Railway as you enter the town. Summer traffic can be bad here, but a bypass has recently been finished. I haven't driven past since it was built, so can't give any further info. Beyond Porthmadog it's a good country A-road, with most villages bypassed, until the last stretch from Llanllyfni to Caernarfon, where it's death by a thousand roundabouts. Recent improvements have given us a good, (single carriageway) straight road with a hard shoulder on each side, only to interrupt it every two miles or so with a roundabout for access to the local village. Then there's the town or Caernarfon to get through (long tailbacks here if you come through at rush hour) and the short link road to Bangor. The Felinheli bypass, with its crawler lanes, will be the nearest thing to a dual carriageway you've seen since Brecon!
Those new roundabouts south of Caernarfon really interrupt my "flow" while driving, so I choose to turn off after Trawsfynydd and follow the A470 proper. It's a hard road, thoroughly twisty-turny up-and-down as you make your way to Blaenau Ffestiniog, and then you have another mountain pass (the Crimea) to cross for all your trouble. I'm very comfortable with it as a road, but I don't recommend it for a novice driver at all. At Betws y Coed, you can join Telford's A5 for a well-engineered route down the Ogwen Valley for Bangor (gentle inclines designed for horse-drawn mail coach), or continue northbound through "pastoral" landscapes (rolling hills with white wrought iron fencing at the roadside) and yet more villages until you reach the Conwy estuary, and the A55.
And as for timescales? In my driving style, I'd budget for four and a half hours, excluding stops. I know some people who would regularly do it in four. Any quicker than that and you're probably disregarding speed limits. If you're aiming for the Rhyl-Wrexham area, you may choose to take the A483 from Builth, through Newtown, but I'm not familiar with that route. What I can tell you is that, contrary to the railways, it is far slower to go through England along the dual carriageways and motorways. I took over five hours going that way late one night (with no traffic at all), and I burned far more petrol doing so too.
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pablo
Member
Porthmadog now has a by-pass.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It is when such a thread as this appears that I always think of the hopes and aspirations of those who proposed the Manchester and Milford Railway and the reasons why such a project was made in the first place. Even the London and North Western Railway were at first supportive of that project in the very early days when it was first being discussed.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Diolch, I wasn't familiar with that song. Must hunt after it!
The stretch of the A470 past Trawsfynydd really shows its Roman origins of Sarn Helen. Do you know which Helen the way is named for?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Super Furry Animals, perchance?
krus_aragon
Established Member
Ah, the Manchester and Milford Railway, famous for reaching neither of the places in its name!
Mind you, a lot of infrastructure in Wales was built for through traffic: Telford's London-Holyhead road and the Chester & Holyhead Railway were built on the back of connecting London with Dublin; Wales just happened to be in the way. In that light, maybe the aspirations of the M&M aren't that radical. Yet I do find myself thinking of the following quote (I forget where I read it):
Indeed, with these lines in the second verse:
...that being Llandinam, Powys on the A470.
Donny Dave
Established Member
I've only read some of the posts in this topic, so excuse me if I mention something that's already been covered, or say something completely stupid, but ....
I've had a look at a map, while I agree in general that such a re-opening in basically unviable and therefore extremely unlikely, I think I have spotted a route that is possibly a bit more viable. It does however feature a big diversion from the direct route, and because of the nature of the terrain, will be very twisty and hilly in places.
From Carmarthen, the first 'major' station would be at Newcastle Emlyn before heading of to Lampeter (possibly via Landysul). After that, it will be another big turn in the route to Aberaeron before running along the coast upto Aberystwyth. To save some money, instead of building stations at every village along the route, space could be cleared and reserved for possible stations in the future, with the main towns along the route becoming local/regional hubs. This (IMO) is quite possibly the best route available, the big down side is the very twisty and hilly nature of the route due to the local topography.
I've had a look at a map, while I agree in general that such a re-opening in basically unviable and therefore extremely unlikely, I think I have spotted a route that is possibly a bit more viable. It does however feature a big diversion from the direct route, and because of the nature of the terrain, will be very twisty and hilly in places.
From Carmarthen, the first 'major' station would be at Newcastle Emlyn before heading of to Lampeter (possibly via Landysul). After that, it will be another big turn in the route to Aberaeron before running along the coast upto Aberystwyth. To save some money, instead of building stations at every village along the route, space could be cleared and reserved for possible stations in the future, with the main towns along the route becoming local/regional hubs. This (IMO) is quite possibly the best route available, the big down side is the very twisty and hilly nature of the route due to the local topography.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
When I travelled the A470 a few years ago, there was a stretch North of Trawsfynydd that resembled a country lane. I believe some widening has taken place since then,
Cardiffian
Member
- Joined
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My father often talks fondly of taking the train from Cardiff to Aberystwyth when he was a student in the 1950s! He certainly regrets the closure of this route. I'd love to see it open again but appreciate the business case isn't very sound.
As a purely hypothetical alternative, how about reconnecting the Heart of Wales and Mid Wales lines, to give some access from Aber to the South Wales coast?
The ever-useful Adlestrop atlas shows a line running from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction, via Rhyader and Llanidloes. It doesn't look like a fast option but surely some reconnection of the Mid Wales railways might help?
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf
As a purely hypothetical alternative, how about reconnecting the Heart of Wales and Mid Wales lines, to give some access from Aber to the South Wales coast?
The ever-useful Adlestrop atlas shows a line running from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction, via Rhyader and Llanidloes. It doesn't look like a fast option but surely some reconnection of the Mid Wales railways might help?
http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf
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