Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[Greenback]

I've only read some of the posts in this topic, so excuse me if I mention something that's already been covered, or say something completely stupid, but ....

I've had a look at a map, while I agree in general that such a re-opening in basically unviable and therefore extremely unlikely, I think I have spotted a route that is possibly a bit more viable. It does however feature a big diversion from the direct route, and because of the nature of the terrain, will be very twisty and hilly in places.

From Carmarthen, the first 'major' station would be at Newcastle Emlyn before heading of to Lampeter (possibly via Landysul). After that, it will be another big turn in the route to Aberaeron before running along the coast upto Aberystwyth. To save some money, instead of building stations at every village along the route, space could be cleared and reserved for possible stations in the future, with the main towns along the route becoming local/regional hubs. This (IMO) is quite possibly the best route available, the big down side is the very twisty and hilly nature of the route due to the local topography.

That sounds as though it would be a lot more expensive than reopening the old line, but with only a little more demand created by going through the small towns in the area. I think that the benefit of serving these places may well be mitigated by the time penalties in any case, sorry.

My father often talks fondly of taking the train from Cardiff to Aberystwyth when he was a student in the 1950s! He certainly regrets the closure of this route. I'd love to see it open again but appreciate the business case isn't very sound.

I'd love to see it open again too, but to say that the business case isn't very sound (by the way these things are currently assessed) is a massive understatement!

As a purely hypothetical alternative, how about reconnecting the Heart of Wales and Mid Wales lines, to give some access from Aber to the South Wales coast?

The ever-useful Adlestrop atlas shows a line running from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction, via Rhyader and Llanidloes. It doesn't look like a fast option but surely some reconnection of the Mid Wales railways might help?

http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

That's a more reasonable suggestion, but still pretty optimistic. The difficulty in utilising the HoW line now is that it's quicker to travel to Shrewsbury via Cardiff from anywhere east of Llanelli. Given that the Mid wales route was pretty slow due to the terrain, I'm not at all sure that the time saving for a traveller from or to Cardiff would be significant via Builth Road.

As I've commented already, the market for travel between Cardiff and the Aberystwyth area doesn't seem to be particularly large, it';s more of a niche market with the addition of some student traffic at certain times which is probably best catered for by coach.

 

[Tumbleweed]

That sounds as though it would be a lot more expensive than reopening the old line, but with only a little more demand created by going through the small towns in the area. I think that the benefit of serving these places may well be mitigated by the time penalties in any case, sorry.



I'd love to see it open again too, but to say that the business case isn't very sound (by the way these things are currently assessed) is a massive understatement!



That's a more reasonable suggestion, but still pretty optimistic. The difficulty in utilising the HoW line now is that it's quicker to travel to Shrewsbury via Cardiff from anywhere east of Llanelli. Given that the Mid wales route was pretty slow due to the terrain, I'm not at all sure that the time saving for a traveller from or to Cardiff would be significant via Builth Road.

As I've commented already, the market for travel between Cardiff and the Aberystwyth area doesn't seem to be particularly large, it';s more of a niche market with the addition of some student traffic at certain times which is probably best catered for by coach.

Anybody know what the BCR is for opening Camarthen to Aberystwyth line is?

 

[Greenback]

At a wild guess, -10

 

[Tumbleweed]

At a wild guess, -10

That much?

Would a scheme like the Beddau or electrification have a positive business simply because they are much more heavily populated areas? I know some parts of the Valleys and a lot of West Wales have high levels of poverty so would that count in the Aberystwyth lines favour?

 

[Greenback]

Sorry, I must have left off a nought there!

I don't know much about how these things are calculated and what benefits are assessed as being brought, but I'd be surprised if some consideration wasn't given to the economic state of the area.

Clearly, the more people living in an area the more chance there is of a positive cost benefit ratio, that may be one of the areas of the process that could be improved, depending on your view point. There's certainly been a lot of debate here and in the railway media about how these things are worked out and how different organisations can work out BCR at completely different levels for the same scheme. And not just for different options either.

 

[Gareth Marston]

My father often talks fondly of taking the train from Cardiff to Aberystwyth when he was a student in the 1950s! He certainly regrets the closure of this route. I'd love to see it open again but appreciate the business case isn't very sound.

As a purely hypothetical alternative, how about reconnecting the Heart of Wales and Mid Wales lines, to give some access from Aber to the South Wales coast?

The ever-useful Adlestrop atlas shows a line running from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction, via Rhyader and Llanidloes. It doesn't look like a fast option but surely some reconnection of the Mid Wales railways might help?

http://www.geowiki.com/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

Llanidloes Bypass straight down the trackbed for nearly 2 miles but get up near Tylwch then the ballast and gangers huts are still sitting there....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is when such a thread as this appears that I always think of the hopes and aspirations of those who proposed the Manchester and Milford Railway and the reasons why such a project was made in the first place. Even the London and North Western Railway were at first supportive of that project in the very early days when it was first being discussed.

Funny how there is now a 2-hourly direct ATW service from Manchester to Milford...
On the Marches main line via Hereford.

If you are heading to north east Wales from Builth, I find it better to continue via Rhayader than go via Llandod - there are 5 miles of continuous bends on that bit of the A483 into Newtown.
Once you have doffed your hat to the David Davies monument in Llandinam (he was pretty much the driving force behind the Cambrian and Barry railways) it's plain sailing via Newtown, Welshpool and Oswestry.
Driving all the way up the Wye valley and then down the Severn is a great drive (watching for red kites en route).
The A49 route is no great shakes - much of it is narrow and winding and the traffic is heavier.

 

[PHILIPE]

Funny how there is now a 2-hourly direct ATW service from Manchester to Milford...
On the Marches main line via Hereford.

If you are heading to north east Wales from Builth, I find it better to continue via Rhayader than go via Llandod - there are 5 miles of continuous bends on that bit of the A483 into Newtown.
Once you have doffed your hat to the David Davies monument in Llandinam (he was pretty much the driving force behind the Cambrian and Barry railways) it's plain sailing via Newtown, Welshpool and Oswestry.
Driving all the way up the Wye valley and then down the Severn is a great drive (watching for red kites en route).
The A49 route is no great shakes - much of it is narrow and winding and the traffic is heavier.

The A49 is always cluttered up with slow moving lorries between Hereford and Shrewsbury with hardly any opportunity to pass over the 52 miles.

 

[Donny Dave]

That sounds as though it would be a lot more expensive than reopening the old line, but with only a little more demand created by going through the small towns in the area. I think that the benefit of serving these places may well be mitigated by the time penalties in any case, sorry.

I didn't say it was the best possible solution, it's just that, in my opinion, it was the best possible route to serve the biggest centers of population on or near the route to make it the most viable route between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. Hence the suggestion to clear ground for possible future stations and make the major stops on the route local/regional railhead and/or park and rides.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course - way back - there was an excellent Crosville S51 "express" bus (Aberystwyth - Ammaford) - which had a guaranteed connection at Ammanford into the 251 Western Welsh semi-fast to Cardiff via Pontardawe and Neath.(station) - used it several times as a student in the mid 1970's. The Ammanford bus inspector was rigorous in getting the connection made. Something like this would do today at a fraction of any railway re-opening. (I speak , by the way, as a railwayman of 36 years service)

 

[Greenback]

I didn't say it was the best possible solution, it's just that, in my opinion, it was the best possible route to serve the biggest centers of population on or near the route to make it the most viable route between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. Hence the suggestion to clear ground for possible future stations and make the major stops on the route local/regional railhead and/or park and rides.

Even though it might be the most viable route in terms of serving the 'major' population centres of the area, it just underlines how hopeless the other options are.

 

[Francis]

krus_aragon gives a very good description of driving from Cardiff to N Wales on the A470. Just to supplement it with a bit on the A483 north from Builth Wells:

The A483 Builth Wells to Newtown (Powys)is a good road but very winding. The distance between the two end-points by road must be double the distance as the crow flies. If you are in a car or on a motor bike you can take a couple of straighter minor roads high over the moors to the east of the road.

North of Newtown (some traffic congestion) the A483 is pretty straight on to Welshpool, Oswestry, Chirk and then dual carriageway via Wrexham to Chester. Reaching these towns from the north is fairly fast (awkward lorries permitting). It's south of Newtown that the slow sections begin: it took me 5 hours down to Merthyr Tydfil from mid-Lancs. A day trip to Cardiff by rail from Manchester is quite feasible. By road, certainly not (unless you have a chauffeur?).

The Welsh long distance bus services are achingly slow:
The T4 TrawsCymru bus just from Newtown to Cardiff takes 3 hrs 40 mins via Llandrindod Wells, Builth Wells, Brecon and Merthyr.

T1 Aberystwyth-Carmarthen takes 2 hrs 14 mins.

701 Aberystwyth - Cardiff takes 4 hrs 10 mins.

Rather takes the shine off the Explore Wales Flexipass 8 days bus travel, doesn't it?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I always plan my journeys from Newtown on the basis of one hour to the dual carriageway at Ruabon and two hours to Merthyr. You might in practice do it quicker but you need an allowance for slow movers, toilet break etc.

I always nearly come back from the south via the A470 as it's an easier drive than concentrating on the A483 and it's twists after a long day.

 

[Holly]

I would think the only financial hope would be to plan it primarily as a tourist railway. One of the great little trains of Wales. Steam trains in the summer, diesel in the winter. Perhaps dual gauge - just to give it something unique and practical as a cachet for tourism while allowing long distance specials.

You could interlace the standard gauge tracks for most of the distance to keep costs down.

 

[Greenback]

I would think the only financial hope would be to plan it primarily as a tourist railway. One of the great little trains of Wales. Steam trains in the summer, diesel in the winter. Perhaps dual gauge - just to give it something unique and practical as a cachet for tourism while allowing long distance specials.

You could interlace the standard gauge tracks for most of the distance to keep costs down.

I'm afraid I still don't see any hope at all!

 

[Llanigraham]

The A483 Builth Wells to Newtown (Powys)is a good road but very winding. The distance between the two end-points by road must be double the distance as the crow flies. If you are in a car or on a motor bike you can take a couple of straighter minor roads high over the moors to the east of the road.

It is actually quicker and more fuel efficient to follow the A470 through Rhayader, Llanidloes and Llandinam to Newtown, then taking the route through Llan'dod and Crossgates and over the mountain.

I've measured and timed both!
Useful being a local.

Let's be quite honest; the reopening of either the Aber - Carmarthen, or the Moat Lane -Brecon are never going to happen. The Aber line has been built on in several areas, crosses the largest wildlife bog and Nature reserve in Wales and has no real population centres to feed it, whilst the Moat Lane line would need lots of bridges rebuilt and has also been built over in many places.

 

[Greenback]

Never say never, but I agree it's unlikely in the extreme, and won't happen for the foreseeable future.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let's be quite honest; the reopening of either the Aber - Carmarthen, or the Moat Lane -Brecon are never going to happen. The Aber line has been built on in several areas, crosses the largest wildlife bog and Nature reserve in Wales and has no real population centres to feed it, whilst the Moat Lane line would need lots of bridges rebuilt and has also been built over in many places.

Your local knowledge gives you eyes to see what forum members from many miles distant to the region may not...

Just as a brief aside, earlier this year when we were based on an 8-day holiday at Porthcawl, we visited the Welsh Whisky distillery at Penderyn en route on a circular tour that had Brecon as its mid-point and then toured the heads of the valleys area and there are many minor roads that have to be taken with a certain amount of care when driving. The Welsh railway engineers must have been a hardy lot, as there must have been a great number of problems to overcome when constructing these original railway lines.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just looking at the section of line from Moat Lane to Rhayader there are:
several river bridges missing, including a steel viaduct
Llani by-pass built on the formation
a road built on the line near Tylwch
station buildings use as houses
houses built on the line at Pant-y-dwr
the tunnel now a bat and nature reserve
Rhayader station site built on

Below Builth the formation for a long distance has been used as the road on the other side of the Wye that parallels the A470, passed Erwood Station.

 

[Greenback]

As I said on a previous subject, none of these problems are insumountable, but the added difficulties and costs involved render the reopening even more unlikely than if they weren't present.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As I said on a previous subject, none of these problems are insumountable, but the added difficulties and costs involved render the reopening even more unlikely than if they weren't present.

As to development take the original Llanidloes and Newtown Railway terminus in Newtown opened in 1859 it became part of the goods yards when the line to Oswestry was opened in 1863, it was still in use as coal yard rail connected to 1983. Then a coal yard that was redeveloped as a Car Sales garage and a modern structure built on it in the early 90's. The garage sold the site to supermarket Lidl around 7 years ago who demolished the 1990's structure to build their supermarket. It goes to show that late 20th Century structures are not permanent fixtures at all.

 

[topydre]

Less than 3% of the trackbed between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen has been built on, and there'd be quite a few diversions anyway, to speed up the line. Maybe it wouldn't pay back the expenditure, but that's not what it's designed to do: it's designed to be a social railway and help travel and promote economic development in west Wales, where there is next to no transport and very few jobs. This isn't unusual in Wales - many existing railways are effectively social railways, and are widely applauded for providing this service. Aberystwyth station is extremely well used - it's often difficult to move on the platform once a train arrives! It's easy to see the university and Lampeter having the same effect, and in an area where many people in the countryside drive huge distances to work at the moment, it's easy to see the parkway stations getting quite a lot of passengers.

 

[The Planner]

Regardless of that no one is going to accept the capital cost hit that this would be. Most if not all reopenings in Wales have been on tracks that have already been there, Ebbw Vale was 30 odd million and the VoG 20 odd million. They were peanuts in comparison to this. Crumlin viaduct would probably be cheaper!

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. It was expensive enough to get old lines reopened when they were still in situ. Rebuilding a line by way of reinstating missing bridges, creating diversions where the aligment is no longer accessible, purchasing the trackbed where it's been sold off or claimed by adverse possession just adds dozens of additional things to overcome, and, of course, many millions of additional expenditure over and above what it would cost if the line was still there or had simply become disused.

 

[Tobbes]

Quite right, Greenback. Never say never - but this must be a long shot.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wales is a victim of its own geology and geography. Had there been no coal or quarrying, one wonders how many of the Victorian-era railway lines would have ever been built.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Wales is a victim of its own geology and geography. Had there been no coal or quarrying, one wonders how many of the Victorian-era railway lines would have ever been built.

In terms of mileage in the rural counties all of them as they were nothing to do with mineral extraction. A handful of valleys in Swales had three lines running in them because of Black Gold but the rest of the country had lines built by local subscription to join in the railway age. The Marxist extraction theory on railways is totally disproved by the way the rural lines in Wales were developed by local people.

 

[edwin_m]

In terms of mileage in the rural counties all of them as they were nothing to do with mineral extraction. A handful of valleys in Swales had three lines running in them because of Black Gold but the rest of the country had lines built by local subscription to join in the railway age. The Marxist extraction theory on railways is totally disproved by the way the rural lines in Wales were developed by local people.

A better question might be how many railways would have been built if the locals had been able to foresee the (lack of) return on their investments! This one probably applies across much of the rest of the UK too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In terms of mileage in the rural counties all of them as they were nothing to do with mineral extraction. A handful of valleys in Swales had three lines running in them because of Black Gold but the rest of the country had lines built by local subscription to join in the railway age. The Marxist extraction theory on railways is totally disproved by the way the rural lines in Wales were developed by local people.

Perhaps my viewing of your posting saw your references to Swales which immediately reawoke my past youthful secondary school education prior to university of some half-century ago when Swales were said to be low tracts of lowlands which have moist soil conditions or marshy land forms and incorporating shallow broad and vegetated water channels.

 

[Greenback]

While it's true that mineral extraction was the reason for many lines to built in the areas where there were a lot of deposits waiting to be mined or quarried and taken down to the sea for onward transportation, it's correct to say that in rural areas the desire was to join the railway age.

However, I'd say that the transport of produce to markets was still a driving force behind the desire to have a railway, rather than passenger traffic. Meat, milk and vegetables could be transported in a more efficient manner by rail to big cities and towns, as Michael Portillo's programmes have stated on many occasions. It was also useful for inwards goods traffic, as well, naturally, but the rise of road traffic saw a lot of goods move to road haulage.

It was this loss of freight traffic on the Carmarthen to Aberystwtyh route that really killed it. The line to Newcastle Emlyn remained open until 1973 for milk traffic, if my memory serves.