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Use of Tablets by Drivers

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Bletchleyite

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Hello all, what is everyone's opinion on drivers using tablets? I've heard proposals recently of a TOC equipping drivers with Ipads, and fitting a mounting bracket into the cabs so that Shielas/diagrams/traction manuals and the rule book etc can be seen. There would also be live delay information. What do you think about this idea? It would be nice not to have to lug around rule books etc but is fitting a bracket in the cab a step too far? Opinions?

Seems to be common in the airline industry.

The other thing that could be looked at is supplementing route learning with something like DB's "elektronische Buchfahrplan". Traditionally Germany is less reliant on route learning, with a ring-bound book in front of the driver which progressively details the route including speed restrictions, signals etc - this since about 10 years ago has been mainly electronic.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've been told at work that SWT are looking at tablet/smart phone technology for possible uses in the future including as potential replacement for the Advantix ticket machines.

Having an "always online" smartphone with guards would give the option of doing walk-up tickets as barcodes (as it could be "cancelled" when gripped by being scanned using the phone).

Neil
 
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cjmillsnun

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How so?

Looking at a screen will surly make it worse.

I think he was referring to tablets as in Paracetamol.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've been told at work that SWT are looking at tablet/smart phone technology for possible uses in the future including as potential replacement for the Advantix ticket machines.

Agreed, nothing wrong with the guard having one, but they shouldn't be in the cab.
 

Jamesb1974

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I suppose it would benefit Drivers a heck of a lot cutting down on having to update the Rule book and Sectional Appendix which are tedious tasks .

But I dont think it is going to bring about a massive if any cost saving for the TOCS .

They are now going to have to employ more tech support or contract out more tech support to support these devices . Tech support staff will cost more than the staff currently associated with the distribution of notices etc .

They will also have to keep replacing the tablets every so often , as well as the costs associated with keeping them all connected to the internet .

Also look at what happened at Nats earlier this week for a warning of what over reliance on technology could do .

Hmm. I don't think the TOCs and FOCs would agree with your sentiments, given that most seem to be either using or trialing the use of tablets.

It's 2014 not 1956. Virtually every adult in the country has a smart phone capable of connecting to the internet and displaying vast amounts of information without needing legions of tech support staff to back it up. Why should a TOC or FOC be any different? We aren't talking about sending or receiving vast amounts of sensitive data. Just some PDF files with the contents of the rule book/sectional appendix/diagrams/WONS and PONS in them. All TOCS and FOCS have office or field staff that use desktops, laptops and tablets on a daily basis, so rolling more tablets out to drivers is hardly going to cause the companies to buckle under the strain!

I think your comment about 'an over reliance on technology' is pretty misguided, given the widespread use of things like GMSR/Wireless services on passenger trains and, to a lesser extent ERTMS. Fax machines and printers are technology, so what happens when they go down? No paper documents. You can't use the tired old argument of 'over reliance on technology' anymore. We live and breath technology every day. Unless you live in a cave and hunt wild animals with wooden weapons (which in themselves were a technological advance), you are embraced by technology in everything you do.

Likewise, you could use the same argument you used here

They will also have to keep replacing the tablets every so often , as well as the costs associated with keeping them all connected to the internet
to refer to printers and fax machines that the railway still relies on. Everything has an associated cost.

Technology is a good thing. Embrace it!
 

scotraildriver

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I have seen a few of these on test/trial. Firstly they have NO Internet capability so difficult to download games or anything. Just updated via a hard wired dock and/or a highly restricted wi fi at the booking on point. And the amount of money saved on paper WON and PON will pay for these in no time I'm led to believe. The people trialling them seem to like it. As we have DAS in the cab can't see any reason for a cab bracket.
 
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muz379

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Virtually every adult in the country has a smart phone capable of connecting to the internet and displaying vast amounts of information without needing legions of tech support staff to back it up. Why should a TOC or FOC be any different? We aren't talking about sending or receiving vast amounts of sensitive data. Just some PDF files with the contents of the rule book/sectional appendix/diagrams/WONS and PONS in them.
Im not talking about Tech support being needed for day to day use . But when things go wrong , which they inevitably will when technology is involved .

I also think as someone else mentioned earlier , when tablets are inevitably rolled out . Drivers need proper training in how to use them depending on what functions the tablet is going to provide . Yeah some drivers might be tech savy and know more than most about using a tablet . But equally there are some that wont have a clue . If they are going to be expected to use them to receive safety critical publications then they have to be properly trained in their use . This in itself will cost money and time .

All TOCS and FOCS have office or field staff that use desktops, laptops and tablets on a daily basis, so rolling more tablets out to drivers is hardly going to cause the companies to buckle under the strain!
Yes but being IT proficient will be part of the criteria when recruiting for those roles .

I think your comment about 'an over reliance on technology' is pretty misguided, given the widespread use of things like GMSR/Wireless services on passenger trains and, to a lesser extent ERTMS. Fax machines and printers are technology, so what happens when they go down? No paper documents.
Given that I have not experienced a widespread GSMR failure yet and observed what network rails contingency plan is and how quickly they get fault teams out yet its hard to comment apart from to say .

Yes when the fax machines go down at work there are no paper documents , however in that sense there is redundancy , say for example the fax machines go down . Rosters can always email the rosters over to depots and they can be printed locally . If you have all of the drivers essential safety critical information on a tablet and the system goes down , or the tablet breaks then depending on how critical the information is it could cause disruption . Without knowing what people want on the tablets it is difficult to say how reliant we would be .
Likewise, you could use the same argument you used here

to refer to printers and fax machines that the railway still relies on. Everything has an associated cost.

Technology is a good thing. Embrace it!
Yes but for the costs involved in printers , fax machines and computers already in use on the railway there are massive benefits . The costs have provided something of great benefit in that things dont have to be communicated in the slow post , and things dont have to be handwritten etc .

Im not actually saying we should not move over to putting all of the information on tablets .

I just think it is misguided to say it would be cheaper than what we currently have , at least in the short term it would cost a great deal of investment to roll it out .and even ongoing I dont think it will represent a significant cost saving because of things like end of life replacement and tech support . Of course as it becomes more expensive to have a large carbon footprint , saving paper and carbon emissions in producing and distributing stuff like rulebooks and notices might become more cost effective sure but we have a long way to go till that point .

I also think it would be wise to anticipate that there could be service disruption during the initial roll out as well as after it has been rolled out as things will go wrong and when technology is involved there is more that can go wrong .

Of course it will also bring great benefits , drivers wont have to carry heaps of information ,they could even carry more information like fault finding information etc etc . I have an android smartphone from my TOC which is useful for getting real time updates from control about delays and disruption as well as looking up timetable inquiries for customers . It does benefit us and passengers and the TOC . But it has come at a cost to the TOC in rolling it out . Not to mention that it is not relied on as an essential piece of equipment/literature like an up to date sectional appendix and copy of WONS is .

If you want to introduce technology like this I dont think it would be wise to try and do it on the cheap . Not when essential operational and safety critical information is going to be involved .
 

E&W Lucas

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Technology is a good thing. Embrace it!

The right technology.....
Not just for the sake of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have seen a few of these on test/trial. Firstly they have NO Internet capability so difficult to download games or anything. Just updated via a hard wired dock and/or a highly restricted wi fi at the booking on point. And the amount of money saved on paper WON and PON will pay for these in no time I'm led to believe. The people trialling them seem to like it. As we have DAS in the cab can't see any reason for a cab bracket.

Some of those being evaluated are 3G.
 

ComUtoR

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If you want to introduce technology like this I don't think it would be wise to try and do it on the cheap . Not when essential operational and safety critical information is going to be involved .

SE Drivers and Gateline will be getting tablets and for Drivers they are considered non-essential and haven't replaced anything as yet. They are for business use only. Reports are already done via the Blackberry and there are apps for Annual leave, faults, and delays. Making the switch to a Tablet is a no brainer.

Nothing posted has yet to convince me that they shouldn't be in the cab. Before I pass any final judgement I would love to know what they will be doing in the cab. The rumor I heard was that they will display your schedule. Anything going into the cab must surely be covered by group standards and have to conform to a specification and have a high reliability level. Currently it the Mitrac goes down then the unit is out of service (IIRC) If your tablet went down then I would then assume it would also be an out of service item.
 

LowLevel

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As a guard I'd welcome it. I have a bagful of traction manuals, 4 NR routes PONs and a large WON to carry plus other crap, report forms etc. I have a Blackberry but it falls down on a lot of things being rubbish at looking up delays etc. A tablet could do much of it. It would have to be physically and operationally bulletproof though.
 

user15681

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The Southeastern ones are to be 3G too. Their primary purpose is to display real time running information to improve information relayed to customers, but the 1,300 for train crew will also have training records, rule book etc on them.
 

ComUtoR

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Just a quick note to all those carrying around their WON/PON's You can subscribe to receive them by email :D

The rule book can be downloaded from RSSB too.
 

muz379

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The rumor I heard was that they will display your schedule. Anything going into the cab must surely be covered by group standards and have to conform to a specification and have a high reliability level. Currently it the Mitrac goes down then the unit is out of service (IIRC) If your tablet went down then I would then assume it would also be an out of service item.

This is one of the things that seems daft to have displayed on a tablet if you ask me .

What happens when you accidentally click off the screen with your schedule on , or what happens when the backlight turns off and then you have to distract yourself with the tablet navigating back to your schedule , or getting the display to come back on .

Or the inevitable , I forgot to charge my tablet so now I cant work a train until its charged .
 

ComUtoR

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What happens when you accidentally click off the screen with your schedule on

The screen can easily be locked

, or what happens when the backlight turns off and then you have to distract yourself with the tablet navigating back to your schedule or getting the display to come back on .

Mitrac already does this. You can set it to "Dark Screen" and it switches off the screen. When you come to a stand it will flip back on and display "Door Status" Then switch off after interlock. At any time you can tap the screen and the Display switches on. Its simple software and not at all distracting. Very very easy to use.

Or the inevitable , I forgot to charge my tablet so now I cant work a train until its charged .

It would charge when docked. Thus mitigating charging issues and provide power. It would also download and update when docked if they connect it to onboard equipment.

I find it difficult to accept that basic shortcomings wouldn't be overcome. Comparing smartphone issues just isn't valid because when docked it becomes something totally different. Think of it less as a Tablet and more of an integrated bit of train equipment.
 

cambsy

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I think saying staff/drivers needing training to use tablets is bit patronising, as I would presume they are all educated and intelligent enough to cope with learning to use a tablet , by just working it out on own, they are not rocket science. Whether one wants to use one or is against them is personal choice. I think it's good idea to have them, common sense should tell you when it is safe to use them, and drivers are professionals, so they not going to risk their job by being un safe using tablets etc.
 

Skoodle

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As I mentioned earlier, ours are wifi only. There's no restrictions on what we can download, just adhering to the usual company internet use policy. We have wifi provided at booking on points and mess rooms. The only thing we don't use them for is diagrams, we still use paper for that! There's some work going on to see about getting the IRMA rosters available on there and markups. Also being able to submit reports on them is being looked in to. That will be a HUGE help, as for now we have to submit report before the end of the shift. If you finish at New Cross Gate and don't have your car parked in the depot, walking back up to the OBC then back to station is a PITA!

We are allowed to charge them in the cabs, so battery life isn't an issue.
 

gswindale

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Just a quick note to all those carrying around their WON/PON's You can subscribe to receive them by email :D

The rule book can be downloaded from RSSB too.
And then you refer to your electronic copy how?

On your work issued tablet!

It is an interesting discussion - I can see both arguments; but if implemented correctly there should be no real issues.

I certainly can't see any issues relating to charging them or backlight/displays. Incorporate a power connector into the mount and design the specific apps so that they do not allow the device to go to sleep.

If they are sufficiently well configured; you should not be able to use them for anything except the intended purpose.
 

ComUtoR

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And then you refer to your electronic copy how?

My WON/PON are both delivered electronically. FYI Via my work Blackberry. I can easily forward that to my personal device and still have access to the paper copy whilst in the depot. Also its well worth noting that use of the WON isn't as prevalent as you might think.
 

jon0844

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Will they offer in app purchases so you could pay to upgrade your train in service?

99p to use fast line for 5 minutes
49p to make hustle alarm louder at one station to speed up boarding
£9.99 (best value) to upgrade service to class 1 express status and get priority over all other traffic, plus all other add ons included for 24 hours
 

muz379

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I find it difficult to accept that basic shortcomings wouldn't be overcome. Comparing smartphone issues just isn't valid because when docked it becomes something totally different. Think of it less as a Tablet and more of an integrated bit of train equipment.

So why not just have a screen like this fitted to the train in the cab that can display this information .
 

ComUtoR

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I would say because its a retrofit. Modern units with Mitrac fitted can be updated via software but to stick a Mitrac in a 465 just isn't practicable and would have a serious cost implication as well as the hoops needed to jump through with the ROSCOs.

Sticking in a cradle and hooking it up to the computer should be less of an issue. Even if you didn't directly hook it up to the onboard systems it can still be used as a simple screen with a display. The potential is staggering as the limitations are literally anything an app can do.

TOC's are still a bit tech stupid and my faith is like others here but I can see the potential and cannot dismiss it out of hand. The distraction aspect cannot be justified because you can limit it and the existing Mitrac hasn't proved to be a distraction and as far as I'm aware, hasn't caused an incident. However; I am acutely aware that missed stops and wrong routes have been blamed on schedules.

I would happily be convinced there is an issue over distraction but I'm yet to see any argument to prove it.
 

91104

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All us East Coast drivers have now been issued with i pads and the whole fleet has been fitted with cradles and charging points for them. At the moment they are only to be used in the cab for the T.A.S (timetable advisory system) which gives you timing points and a helpful alarm when we are approaching a station stop and allows you to report delays at the end of a journey. I was a bit sceptical at first after using a good old highlighter pen to mark my station calls but like most things bought in over the years I've got used to it now but it still has it's limitations as there's not facility to input extra stops like when I was given an additional Huntingdon stop earlier and I think the approaching station stop goes off too early so will be interesting to see if fail to calls are significantly reduced.
 

muz379

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I would say because its a retrofit. Modern units with Mitrac fitted can be updated via software but to stick a Mitrac in a 465 just isn't practicable and would have a serious cost implication as well as the hoops needed to jump through with the ROSCOs.

Sticking in a cradle and hooking it up to the computer should be less of an issue. Even if you didn't directly hook it up to the onboard systems it can still be used as a simple screen with a display. The potential is staggering as the limitations are literally anything an app can do.

TOC's are still a bit tech stupid and my faith is like others here but I can see the potential and cannot dismiss it out of hand. The distraction aspect cannot be justified because you can limit it and the existing Mitrac hasn't proved to be a distraction and as far as I'm aware, hasn't caused an incident. However; I am acutely aware that missed stops and wrong routes have been blamed on schedules.

I would happily be convinced there is an issue over distraction but I'm yet to see any argument to prove it.

True , on some traction there isnt even really an onboard "system" to connect it too so it would just basically be a power source for the fancy diagram display .

I dont necessarily think that its TOC's that are "tech stupid" I think its the railway as a whole . Given that it would require a group standard to approve any sort of standardized device such as what we are talking about here . Add to that the immediate bias displayed by some on this forum (myself included in that ) against anything that could be seen as a distraction in the cab environment

Fail to calls and wrong routes caused by diagrams are because the information displayed on the diagram is wrong . This could just as easilly happen if the electronic diagrams are programmed wrong as well and display the wrong information .
The type of wrong routes and fail to calls caused by human factors could easily happen however the diagram is displayed to the driver .However the Alarm type system described by 91104 above does sound like something that attempts to mitigate that

I agree the possibilities are endless , you could have a fully integrated system whereby the diagram is live updated by the signals set ahead that then feeds into customer information displays and everything although I know we are a long long way off that level yet . The only thing with this is it is then going to make the railway reliant on a great deal of technology . I would not like to see this done on the cheap as is sometimes the case with these things . You could cause massive disruption with a minor failure . That was my main bone of contention was people saying it would be and could be cheaper ,if somethings worth doing then do it properly not on the cheap .
 
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ComUtoR

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If I may interject...

Is the TAS the same as DAS (Driver Advisory System) ? I saw a website about the TAS ( http://interfleet-tas.com/about.htm ) and it's "designed to operate on an apple ipad" We are getting DAS on SE

DAS causing distraction :

http://www.ciras.org.uk/report-library/train-operations/50880/?tid=1417

A reporter is concerned that the Driver Advisory System (DAS) that is to be implemented in high speed Class 43 trains could cause Drivers to become distracted.

Although the use of the DAS is not compulsory, the reporter feels that it could be intrusive and distracting because:

Drivers can't switch it off;
the brightness of the screen cannot be adjusted;
it displays a vast range of timing and speed data;
the system shuts down when going through a tunnel because it is reliant on GPS; and
it instructs Drivers to coast and therefore shuts off the power to the train

It is believed that the application of the DAS will undermine the Driver's ability to use their own route knowledge and skills. This makes the task of driving more automated and Drivers may become over reliant on the system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
True , on some traction there isnt even really an onboard "system" to connect it too so it would just basically be a power source for the fancy diagram display .

Yep. I can understand why Drivers are reluctant to switch over to a screen based system and I would agree to an extent.


Given that it would require a group standard to approve any sort of standardized device such as what we are talking about here

As its already happening I suspect that there is already a standard.

Fail to calls and wrong routes caused by diagrams are because the information displayed on the diagram is wrong . This could just as easily happen if the electronic diagrams are programmed wrong as well and display the wrong information .
The type of wrong routes and fail to calls caused by human factors could easily happen however the diagram is displayed to the driver

100% Agree

However the Alarm type system described by 91104 above does sound like something that attempts to mitigate that

The "off route alarm" on the Networker PIS was so horrendously implemented that it was removed.

You could cause massive disruption with a minor failure . That was my main bone of contention was people saying it would be and could be cheaper ,if somethings worth doing then do it properly not on the cheap

As its considered a non essential system and only "advisory" any failure shouldn't cause disruption. Only when it becomes fully integrated like the Mitrac will it become an issue. Again, I suspect that making it a cradle and removable you can still remain in service without it and go "old school"

I see we have similar views and faith in the railway. Currently I'm trying to remain open minded.
 

muz379

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As its considered a non essential system and only "advisory" any failure shouldn't cause disruption. Only when it becomes fully integrated like the Mitrac will it become an issue. Again, I suspect that making it a cradle and removable you can still remain in service without it and go "old school"

I see we have similar views and faith in the railway. Currently I'm trying to remain open minded.

True , But then I dont really see the point in implementing it until we are at the level where we can use it to do more than just display a diagram with a rather expensive bit of kit .

As I earlier Mentioned I as a guard was recently issued with an android phone as a replacement for the blackberry . Many guards now just have their rulebook and sectional appendix on the phone . I still however maintain a paper copy because attempting to read it on the small phone screen is pointless . I do have PDF copies on my laptop but again I dont like reading off computer screens .
 

LowLevel

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The one thing I wouldn't like on it is the job card/diagram - I scribble things like delays, passenger assists and other little reminders on mine all the time.
 

ComUtoR

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True , But then I don't really see the point in implementing it until we are at the level where we can use it to do more than just display a diagram with a rather expensive bit of kit .

I would agree. The beauty of the tablet/cradle system is that you can bring tablets in as a business tool and integrate it into the train at a later date. Again it becomes a benefit of a tablet system.

Advisory systems are slowly rolling out and looking at the TAS (link above) I can see it (as you do) being a cheap alternative for the DAS' I have been looking at this evening.

As I earlier Mentioned I as a guard was recently issued with an android phone as a replacement for the blackberry . Many guards now just have their rulebook and sectional appendix on the phone . I still however maintain a paper copy because attempting to read it on the small phone screen is pointless . I do have PDF copies on my laptop but again I don't like reading off computer screens

One of the reasons why I support switching to tablets is because of what you describe. The Blackberry/Smart phone is no longer sufficient.

My sectional appendix is gathering dust and I only refer to it "on demand" and that is a rarity. I agree the paper version is better but that is because the NR version is awful to search through. I'm much faster with the paper version. (but I'm old) My rulebook is better in digital. The advantages of a digital rulebook have been a godsend.

I agree with you that it really has to be done right. We don't have ours yet but the above posters with theirs seem happy and haven't (as yet) posted any negatives.
 

GB

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The one thing I wouldn't like on it is the job card/diagram - I scribble things like delays, passenger assists and other little reminders on mine all the time.

You can do that on the iPad. Can't remember the name of the app but you can add notes and highlight areas.
 

Gemz91

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Half the older drivers (and some of the younger ones come to think of it) at my depot struggle to get to grips using the coffee machine, not a chance they'll be able to use an Ipad!
 
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