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ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

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Hadders

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Not all stations on the Cambridge branch can take 8 car trains
What happened to plans for an extra passenger bridge at Finsbury Park ?

They manage to run 8 car trains in the peaks, despite the issues of the village stations on the Cambridge branch.

In my opinion, passengers from Cambridge should have been directed via the West Anglia line to assist in providing some relief at Finsbury Park.
 
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jopsuk

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Is there any station north of Finsbury Park on the route that has got an Underground connection? If there is could they have used it as an alighting only stop emptying the train of passengers, then have it travel south to Finsbury Park (slowly, part because of platform availability and part to allow cleaning), then board it at Finsbury Park?

Nope. Finsbury Park is the only station other than Kings Cross on the Great Northern with interchange to any Underground or Overground Lines.

Don't want to go back through everything but was any effort made to get (lots) more carriages on Peterborough-Cambridge for onward connection to Liverpool Street? Were AGA running extra carriages on the CBG-LST route?

Ignoring lack-of-stock issues, could it even have been feasible to run HSTs all the way to Livepool Street? Thinking even further outside the box, could electric sets have been dragged across the fens and then run down the West Anglia? There's no way the paperwork for clearence for the latter has ever been done, obviously, but are Mark 3s allowed that way?
 

21C101

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If the Canonbury Curve was wired it would be possible to run GN services to Liverpool St via the Canonbury Curve and the Graham Road Curve.
 

21C101

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Canon bury curve is wired it was used to reverse trains

So it is, you are quite right. So GN could have run 4 per hour twelve car trains from Peterborough to Liverpool Street, calling at Finsbury Park, with the intercities turning back at Peterborough 2PH and Stevenage 2PH if things had been organised properly.

No doubt someone will be along shortly to say it is all too difficult and disproportionate cost for the driver route training etc. however Hull Trains have blown that argument out of the water by running to St Pancras.
 
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Haywain

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No doubt someone will be along shortly to say it is all too difficult and disproportionate cost for the driver route training etc. however Hull Trains have blown that argument out of the water by running to St Pancras.

Not quite the same numbers involved, are there?
 

EM2

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So it is, you are quite right. So GN could have run 4 per hour twelve car trains from Peterborough to Liverpool Street, calling at Finsbury Park, with the intercities turning back at Peterborough 2PH and Stevenage 2PH if things had been organised properly.

No doubt someone will be along shortly to say it is all too difficult and disproportionate cost for the driver route training etc. however Hull Trains have blown that argument out of the water by running to St Pancras.

I would imagine that capacity and platfrom length at Liverpool Street would also have something to do with it.
And also that the logistis of two trains during a day is a bit different to four trains every hour during a day.
 
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LAX54

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Nope. Finsbury Park is the only station other than Kings Cross on the Great Northern with interchange to any Underground or Overground Lines.

Don't want to go back through everything but was any effort made to get (lots) more carriages on Peterborough-Cambridge for onward connection to Liverpool Street? Were AGA running extra carriages on the CBG-LST route?

Ignoring lack-of-stock issues, could it even have been feasible to run HSTs all the way to Livepool Street? Thinking even further outside the box, could electric sets have been dragged across the fens and then run down the West Anglia? There's no way the paperwork for clearence for the latter has ever been done, obviously, but are Mark 3s allowed that way?

Well a few years ago they "ran a Eurostar/TGV" from Liverpool Street ! LOL :lol:
 

21C101

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I would imagine that capacity and platfrom length at Liverpool Street would also have something to do with it.
And also that the logistis of two trains during a day is a bit different to four trains every hour during a day.

Liverpool St ought to be able to cope with 4PH on a Saturday. If it were M-F with a full peak service I would agree.

Yes its easier with only two trains during the day, but Hull trains have shown it can indeed be done.

Th logical thing to do would be to run one GN morning peak and one evening peak service MF from Peterborough to Liverpool Street, rostering the drivers to all do this turn periodically. The train would also I suspect be quite well used as it would give a direct service to the city.
 
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Mag_seven

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Hull Trains have blown that argument out of the water by running to St Pancras.

Which was planned weeks if not months in advance - it wasn't just put together at the drop of a hat on Boxing Day evening which is what some people are suggesting should have been done with GN services.
 

21C101

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Which was planned weeks if not months in advance - it wasn't just put together at the drop of a hat on Boxing Day evening which is what some people are suggesting should have been done with GN services.

If you read the thread, the main criticism is that the timetable was indeed put together at the drop of a hat on Boxing Day evening, and no one months ago considered the significant risk that the possession might overrun and drew up an emergency timetable and rostering well in advance in case it did.
 

Hadders

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There are lots of different possibilities but on Boxing day evening both EC and GN had 'got what they'd got'. It's not really feasible to have resources hanging around 'just in case' and anyway it would have been difficult to mobilise the numbers required at that time.

What could have been done better in my opinion with the resources available to both EC and GN yesterday:

1. Terminate all EC trains at Peterborough or Stevenage. It was taking too long to board and alight passengers at FPK due to fewer doors on the trains.

2. Run all GN trains as a minimum of 8 carriages and ideally 12.

3. Direct Cambridge passengers via the West Anglia line into Liverpool Street (Could Abellio have strengthened these trains at short notice?)

4. Use the stock and drivers freed up from Cambridge trains to strengthen as many trains as possible and run as many additional services as could be reasonably turned at FPK.

5. Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar to be served by the inner suburban trains only. Run these non stop through Finsbury Park to relieve pressure on the station.

6. Get staff from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park to set up one-way system in the station etc.
 

Unixman

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Which was planned weeks if not months in advance - it wasn't just put together at the drop of a hat on Boxing Day evening which is what some people are suggesting should have been done with GN services.

Which indeed is at the nub of the problem. It was the lack of contingency planning by GN that caused the grief. This meant they ended up throwing together, at very short notice, a series of botched plans that backfired spectacularly.
 

amcluesent

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Anyone know if the additional day (& night) of working has actually allowed them to complete all the work at KGX? It's never been clear if the equipment failure just delayed things or scuppered the job
 
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Class 170101

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If the Canonbury Curve was wired it would be possible to run GN services to Liverpool St via the Canonbury Curve and the Graham Road Curve.

From Post 207 above
There is normally no space at Liverpool Street Station to accomodate extra services. Diverting c2c there on Saturdays usually requires a re-write of the plaforms at Liverpool Street to make it work.

This weekend would be even more interesting as GE routes themselves are re-timed for two track working between Liverpool Street and Shenfield as noted above this is likely to be altering the platform working even further.
 

87015

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From Post 207 above

Its incorrect though. Apart from being entirely the wrong side of the Street, c2c don't require movement of GA (bar the standby sometimes) to run 4tph, its 6tph that needs some platform work, mainly for performance reasons to make it more resilient.
 

LAX54

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So if we have staff hanging around on the off chance they might be needed, diesels ticking over just in case they are needed, NR staff hanging around, just in case they are are needed, who is going to pay for all this ? Passengers when their fare increases even more ? How many on here fancy working 12 hour shifts (or more when it goes belly up) diggiging out the track, in driving snow or rain, howling wind, temps in the -2 or more region,
all manner of stuff in the track from the passage of trains over the years,
Yet most on here, not everyone complain about the overruns sitting at home supping a beer, munching mince pies! Those who come on here that work for the industry seem to get short shrift as though they know nothing !:-x
 

amcluesent

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The question must be asked, what probability was assigned to the equipment failure that threw the whole plan into chaos?

Obviously the impact was immense, so probability * impact should have resulted in a high risk score, hence mandating a credible mitigation plan would be worked out in advance.

Sounds like someone just assumed the failure "couldn't happen", exhibiting very poor knowledge of engineering works or just slipshod planning.
 
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21C101

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What's the difference between 'not feasible' and 'not profitable' ?, if it were to have been asylumxl-rail involved would you have paid dozens of your staff to sit around doing nothing 'just in case' ?

You wouldn't pay them to sit around doing nothing, you would pay them to be on call and available for duty within two hours of receiving a call, them pay them their hourly overtime rate plus bonus if they are called out (oh and make the on call contractual not voluntary)

How do you think S&T manage to find large numbers of staff when a big failure occurs in the middle of the night?
 

ExRes

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You wouldn't pay them to sit around doing nothing, you would pay them to be on call and available for duty within two hours of receiving a call, them pay them their hourly overtime rate plus bonus if they are called out (oh and make the on call contractual not voluntary)

How do you think S&T manage to find large numbers of staff when a big failure occurs in the middle of the night?

So what exactly is sitting around and being paid while on call compared with sitting around doing nothing when, on 99% of occasions, nothing needs doing ?
 

21C101

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So what exactly is sitting around and being paid while on call compared with sitting around doing nothing when, on 99% of occasions, nothing needs doing ?

When on call you are "sitting around" or asleep at home and you do not get paid wages for this. You get paid an on call allowance (say £25 a week) plus the monthly line rental of your telephone. If called in, then you get paid your hourly overtime rate for the hours you work. Agreeing to be "on call" is part of your terms and conditions of employment and you have no choice. Typically you will be on call one week in two, three or four and while on call you have to be at or reasonably near home, contactable and abstain from all alcohol.

Its standard practice throughout the engineering side of the railway, including both technicians and management (except the management are often expected to do it without extra renumeration). Its also standard practice in many other industries such as the NHS - almost certainly many of the engineering staff who spent yesterday trying to put the track out of Kings Cross back together would have been on call and called out and had no choice other than to give up their Christmas break and attend.

On call dosen't appear to be standard practice for train crews and station staff, nor for the bus drivers that they hire when it all goes wrong.
 
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mildertduck

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Nope. Finsbury Park is the only station other than Kings Cross on the Great Northern with interchange to any Underground or Overground Lines.

While not strictly a connection, Hornsey isn't far from Turnpike Lane, and Alexandra Palace is fairly close to Wood Green. I wouldn't recommend it for elderly or disabled passengers, but given there were trains queuing in those stations, they could have opened the doors and let some passengers off? Also, if they used some trains via the Hertford Loop, Bowes Park and Barnes Green can be used. Its unfortunate that these all pile onto the same line, mind!
 

Darandio

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And the platforms aren't long enough are they, at least for East Coast services? You then start getting into dangerous territory, especially on a crowded service.
 

Bald Rick

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If you read the thread, the main criticism is that the timetable was indeed put together at the drop of a hat on Boxing Day evening, and no one months ago considered the significant risk that the possession might overrun and drew up an emergency timetable and rostering well in advance in case it did.

There's two things here:
a) preventing the overrun in the first place, and,
b) mitigating the effects of an overrun if it happens.

The Holloway work - and every other job on the network - went through a detailed schedule risk assessment (several times in fact) that considered every potential failure, potential resource absence, potential cause of slippage etc. Every big job like this at Christmas has to demonstrate at least a 95% chance of being handed back 4 hours before the first train service is due to operate. This is as per a process agreed with the ORR. Of course that means, in theory, 1 in 20 jobs don't make it. Actually it is a much lower rate than that, nearer 1:100. But when you are doing nearly 1000 jobs over Christmas - as this year - at that strike rate, some of them will overrun.


For mitigation, I can tell you that there was a contingency plan for an overrun on this job, as there was for every single piece of major work over the Christmas period. As an example, the work at London Bridge has about 10 different service contingency plans depending which stage might go wrong, when, and how badly wrong. Happily the first two of those haven't been needed and have gone in the bin unused. (And I have everything crossed that we won't need another 2 tomorrow morning). However, having a service contingency plan is one thing, resourcing it is quite another. It is, in theory, possible to provide fully resourced contingency plans with different rosters and stock diagrams. However it takes weeks of effort of the planners to produce each one for a big job like Kings Cross, and frankly there is not the resource available to do it on the basis that there is a 1% chance that it might be invoked. Besides, how would you tell drivers / conductors / station staff whether to come in for Plan A or Plan B (or C or D), given that the start times might be quite different? If that means they are required to be on call just in case, there becomes an issue with working hours, and again, it is a lot of potential extra cost for a 1% chance of being used.

My purely personal view is that I simply don't understand why there were 4 car units running around, nor why some services were cancelled when they weren't affected by the work. I suspect there were other factors at play unconnected to the overrun which got 'lost' within the big picture.
 
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Aictos

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So it is, you are quite right. So GN could have run 4 per hour twelve car trains from Peterborough to Liverpool Street, calling at Finsbury Park, with the intercities turning back at Peterborough 2PH and Stevenage 2PH if things had been organised properly.

No doubt someone will be along shortly to say it is all too difficult and disproportionate cost for the driver route training etc. however Hull Trains have blown that argument out of the water by running to St Pancras.

Umm no this is in no way actually possible because you've forgotten one very important factor which is route knowledge, GN drivers I doubt sign the route between Finsbury Park and Liverpool Street any more. They be fine to Canonbury Curve but would need a pilotman to pilot them into Liverpool Street then of course you have restrictions with the rolling stock as 365s in particular have certain restrictions. Then not forgetting any issues with engineering works that may have been ongoing on the proposed diversionary route.

The difference with First Hull Trains is 1. Their traincrew have the route knowledge required to use St Pancras International and 2. The 180s are cleared into St Pancras International.

Nope. Finsbury Park is the only station other than Kings Cross on the Great Northern with interchange to any Underground or Overground Lines.

Wrong big time, Moorgate together with Old Street and Highbury & Islington have connections to the Underground and in the case of Highbury & Islington they have connections to both the Underground and Overground.

If the Canonbury Curve was wired it would be possible to run GN services to Liverpool St via the Canonbury Curve and the Graham Road Curve.

Again this is not feasible for reasons I have explained above.

All GN stations should have one of these posters up and leaflets to give out/take during disruption IIRC!

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/download/273/alt-map-pot-bar/

My station certainly has one but I can't force people to read it! I believe ALL of the GN stations have them, course I don't know where exactly but I believe they are available.

As to handling out leaflets, yeah if enough was available then yes that be a great idea too.
 

lincolnshire

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Not very nice to say , but with a plane missing in Indonesia and a ferry on fire from Greece to Italy its taken the pressure off Network Rail and the trains service some what today from been first news item.

Tomorrow will be the usual statement we will have to learn lessons from what happened to stop this happening again! Wonder what odds I could get on it happening again at the bookmakers then? evens bet ?
 
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