ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

[TUC]

Many people don't have projects where failure can be so publicly disruptive and scrutinised. Many of the projects that fail just never get discovered, buried in the back of reports and statistics.

I expect that something has knocked the Critical Path for this project. It's not easy to get spare parts and a redundancy plan in play on Christmas Day and insurance costs money. Projects can quickly become an ACE and a reason why not to do things. Network Rail needs to take risks to get these projects done. Whilst they deserve scrutiny for the amount of public money involved, I think the best thing they need is that they need support.

I assume that there will be vacancies shortly at Network Rail and its subcontractors for those of you looking for a challenge

I accept that major projects can go wrong. I'm not blaming Network Rail for this. It's the TOCs response to it that has been so woefully inadequate.

 

[Chris Wallis]

But the issue is NOT that the possession overran by 24 hours. That risk is always there. Pope is Catholic, Bears s*** in the woods, posessions overrun.

The issue is IMHO that the industry management should have assumed that the posesssion would overrun and had emergency timetables and rostering arrangements of both railway staff and coaches/coach drivers covering the situation written and signed off months ago (which the much maligned FCC did on Thameslink to cover operating problems - meaning that as soon as the problem occcured they just pressed the metaphorical "go" button and implemented the emergency arrangements)

This would include paying the extra staff a fee to be available immediately if the emergency timetable is put into place and they get the phone call and paying them another larger fee on top of their normal hourly wages if they are required.

This I understand.....it does seem to make sense.

But why would a TOC pay for staff to be on 'Stand By' when it can get compensation for cancelled services when it all goes wrong?

Why would a TOC care when they get paid anyway...especially when it isn't the decision makers that get the flack from the customer in the station?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would have thought that someone shoves a rocket up EMT's arse and get them to help out as much as they can.

I think with EMT and the VT disruption, it is a case of no room. They already have their hands full dealing with VT passengers.

 

[DarloRich]

I did not suggest no planning had taken place. It is obvious that LOTS of detailed planning took place which I am sure took a great deal of time and effort. But that is the detail. It is the Strategy of doing so much work at the same time, leaving few clear routes open to/from London which leaves yourself hostage to fortune. NR haven't got a great reputation for finishing infrastructure work on time now have they. I'm not saying its easy and I'm sure they just wanted to get as much done as possible. However, it was bound to be a busy day because people couldn't travel by rail on Boxing day, so you've got 2 days worth of passengers, with many with Scottish links coming / going to London.

Speak to the government then - they want more work doing in shorter times for less money.

All of the work at Euston, Kings Cross and Paddington has to be completed within CP5. All three work streams will be part of a much larger work plan covering all of the major windows of opportunity over the 5 year period plus the smaller options available.

Now if you can work out how to fit a quart into a pint glass.......

 

[21C101]

This I understand.....it does seem to make sense.

But why would a TOC pay for staff to be on 'Stand By' when it can get compensation for cancelled services when it all goes wrong?

Why would a TOC care when they get paid anyway...especially when it isn't the decision makers that get the flack from the customer in the station?

These of course are important, and very uncomfortable, questions that need answering and probably won't get answered as they call into question the whole post privatisation structure.

 

[Starmill]

Or Waterloo for that matter?

London to Birmingham and the North via Salisbury!

More seriously it seems Birmingham trains from Marylebone have been handling demand well. The same cannot be said of XC's 1tph from Manchester to Birmingham, with reversal at Nuneaton. Given it's half the frequency, could they not have had 8 coaches instead of 4? #armchairexpert #itssnowing

 

[Julia]

NR1: We have so many financial penalties in place it's gonna work!

Unless (until) the fubar becomes more expensive to fix than the penalties...

 

[21C101]

London to Birmingham and the North via Salisbury!

Change at Bristol !

 

[Tom B]

These of course are important, and very uncomfortable, questions that need answering and probably won't get answered as they call into question the whole post privatisation structure.

Quite. OK, the TOCs probably have to shell out a fair bit in overtime for staff (but if it is as impossible as some claim to get extra staff and there are no emergency arrangements to oblige people to report for duty?!) and delay repay claims (for those passengers who know it exists and can be bothered to put in for it) - but they will get a settlement from NR. So they're probably better off than if they had prepared and run a well organised emergency timetable!

 

[DarloRich]

Because the emergency timetable wasn't published by 6PM last night, which it would have been if it had been pre-written like the FCC emergency timetables were.

But, again, have you considered that the reason for the overrun (whatever it was) caused such a problem as to make any pre loaded emergency timetable superfluous

Of course all this is conjecture – there may have been no pre work. I doubt it but you never know.

 

[IanXC]

Interestingly the HT services to/from St Pancras appear to have run ok, a mere half hour late. Was it not possible to obtain sufficient staff to operate more this way - particularly thinking of EC's HSTs.

That diversion only has very limited capacity - paths have to be fitted between London Overground services, and cope with the limited platform availability at the MML St Pancras platforms. If there were capacity I think HT would have tried diverting their 2 other services which didn't go there today...

I do wonder what prevented 10 car workings by HT to St Pancras today - I would guess Grand Central had spare 180s today, or equally FGW (although would the Paddington issues have prevented them getting off depot?)

 

[GB]

This I understand.....it does seem to make sense.

But why would a TOC pay for staff to be on 'Stand By' when it can get compensation for cancelled services when it all goes wrong?

Why would a TOC care when they get paid anyway...especially when it isn't the decision makers that get the flack from the customer in the station?

The TOCs wouldn't want the extra cost and I'd be surprised if anyone volunteered to be on call anyway. If on call works the same as it does at our place its normally better just to have a booked job with hours you already know about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But, again, have you considered that the reason for the overrun (whatever it was) caused such a problem as to make any pre loaded emergency timetable superfluous

Of course all this is conjecture – there may have been no pre work. I doubt it but you never know.

Exactly. An over run is foreseeable granted, but the level and scale is not quite so easy to predict.

I would be interested to know how much disruption there would have been had the over run not occurred. 3 of the 4 lines were alway planned to be blocked with SLW over the 1 remaining line so a severely altered and restricted timetable must have already been in place.

How many paths would there have been over the single line per hour?

 

[cjmillsnun]

NR a not for profit Company,same thinking as as state owned,so long as the fat cats get a bonus for failure, we passengers suffer but pay for failure.
NR needs sorting out,too many comfort zones,the NR Manager telling the media we ran 10K trains today says it all.
Little wonder if NR cocks up the Wrexham redouble,what chance elsewhere.
No wonder Welsh Government,want control of infrastructure from 2018.Problem is NR dont suffer penalty clauses like real industry,just pay the not for profit fine out of reserves, sorry I do feel sorry for the passenger, the important element after all.
Politicians will ask questions,ORR will fine, status que remains.

NR is state owned now.

 

[21C101]

But, again, have you considered that the reason for the overrun (whatever it was) caused such a problem as to make any pre loaded emergency timetable superfluous

Of course all this is conjecture – there may have been no pre work. I doubt it but you never know.

They obviously had an emergency timetable planned for three of the four lines being blocked south of Finsbury Park today, as this was apparently the planned working according to a previous poster.

I'm saying that it should not have been difficult to forsee that the fourth line might not open today and therefore there should also have been another emergency timetable and staffing arrangements done well in advance for the contingency of all four lines being blocked, as occured.

I wouldn't expect them to have to write it from scratch either, the bulk of it should have just come out of the file marked "what we do when Finsbury Park to Kings Cross is shut" and suitably modified to account for the fact that no trains ran yesterday and the stock is in different places - and all of this should have been done and signed off before the end of November.

 

[PHILIPE]

I accept that major projects can go wrong. I'm not blaming Network Rail for this. It's the TOCs response to it that has been so woefully inadequate.

And seeing on BBC News people in long queues outside Finsbury Park saying they were in the dark. No info to tell them what was happening. We get this lack of info every time, despite assurances lessons have been learned and steps are being taken to improve.

 

[LowLevel]

Surely then if you're going to have such a platinum plated contingency in place (at huge extra cost) then the cheaper super off peak etc tickets should be restricted for the dates in question to pay for it? Devil's advocate. The theory being you can't necessarily expect such a contingency to be in place for passengers paying the cheapest all round prices?

 

[14xxDave]

and of course you know, exactly, what happened here and why I assume. Just like you assume that no planning ever goes into these jobs.

I know, why not offer your services to NR as a consultant, hell you could join with the others on here and make a fortune as clearly you never made any mistakes. The day rate will be superb…..

Eh? You a Network Rail planner? Come on guy you know as much as us, back off sir.

 

[TUC]

And seeing on BBC News people in long queues outside Finsbury Park saying they were in the dark. No info to tell them what was happening. We get this lack of info every time, despite assurances lessons have been learned and steps are being taken to improve.

On the BBC news site it records: 'A common complaint was the lack of information about what was happening.

A woman trying to travel to Edinburgh said "not all of us are on Twitter - a real person telling us what's going on would be nice."

Of all the issues that need to be addressed during an incident like this, communication to passengers is one of the easiest, and yet TOCs seem to consistently put it low down their priorities. Why should this be when it is so fundamental?

 

[matacaster]

Speak to the government then - they want more work doing in shorter times for less money.

All of the work at Euston, Kings Cross and Paddington has to be completed within CP5. All three work streams will be part of a much larger work plan covering all of the major windows of opportunity over the 5 year period plus the smaller options available.

Now if you can work out how to fit a quart into a pint glass.......

I do accept that you may well have a valid point here.

 

[Tomnick]

They obviously had an emergency timetable planned for three of the four lines being blocked south of Finsbury Park today, as this was apparently the planned working according to a previous poster.

My understanding, possibly mistaken, is that they were planning to run over both Down lines, with Single Line Working implemented to pass Up trains over the Down Fast and Down trains signalled normally over the Down Slow. On that basis, the planned service doesn't seem quite as restrictive as the picture painted by some.

Although it's difficult to rely on being able to pull a contingency plan off the shelf and implement it straight away, the possibility (generally) of Kings Cross being closed on an unplanned basis isn't exactly remote, so I'm sure that there'd be something that could be relatively quickly developed into a workable plan. That seemed to work well from a train running point of view, but the well-established crowd control measures seemed to be the issue - out of interest, are they designed solely to cater more for a peak flow in one direction after a major sporting event?

 

[Tom B]

On the BBC news site it records: 'A common complaint was the lack of information about what was happening.

A woman trying to travel to Edinburgh said "not all of us are on Twitter - a real person telling us what's going on would be nice."

Of all the issues that need to be addressed during an incident like this, communication to passengers is one of the easiest, and yet TOCs seem to consistently put it low down their priorities. Why should this be when it is so fundamental?

Be careful what you wish for, mind - LUL admitted that their information provision was bad a few years ago, so started dishing out pointless tannoy announcements every 30 seconds and proclaiming there to be a good service irrespective of the delays actually occurring - so yes, there is now plenty of information, just a lot of it is useless.

 

[PHILIPE]

Any news re tomorrow yet ?

 

[Antman]

On the BBC news site it records: 'A common complaint was the lack of information about what was happening.

A woman trying to travel to Edinburgh said "not all of us are on Twitter - a real person telling us what's going on would be nice."

Of all the issues that need to be addressed during an incident like this, communication to passengers is one of the easiest, and yet TOCs seem to consistently put it low down their priorities. Why should this be when it is so fundamental?

Indeed, somebody was saying on twitter that whilst they were waiting in the cold outside Finsbury Park that BTP officers did their level best to keep people informed and in good spirits but there was little info from anybody else

 

[TUC]

Be careful what you wish for, mind - LUL admitted that their information provision was bad a few years ago, so started dishing out pointless tannoy announcements every 30 seconds and proclaiming there to be a good service irrespective of the delays actually occurring - so yes, there is now plenty of information, just a lot of it is useless.

I'm talking about real, useful information or, if there isn't detailed information available, reassuring messages that give passengers the feeling that somebody is genuinely aware of them and seeking to meet their needs and resolve the situation.

 

[GB]

My understanding, possibly mistaken, is that they were planning to run over both Down lines, with Single Line Working implemented to pass Up trains over the Down Fast and Down trains signalled normally over the Down Slow. On that basis, the planned service doesn't seem quite as restrictive as the picture painted by some.

Although it's difficult to rely on being able to pull a contingency plan off the shelf and implement it straight away, the possibility (generally) of Kings Cross being closed on an unplanned basis isn't exactly remote, so I'm sure that there'd be something that could be relatively quickly developed into a workable plan. That seemed to work well from a train running point of view, but the well-established crowd control measures seemed to be the issue - out of interest, are they designed solely to cater more for a peak flow in one direction after a major sporting event?

Yes you are right, for some reason I had it in my head 3 lines were to be continuously blocked.

 

[amcluesent]

Surely the unforeseen total loss of KGX must be in the plan to respond to a mass-casualty/CBRN event. Oh, hang on...what plan?

 

[Yorkshireguy]

For once, Abellio Greater Anglia doesn't seem to be the service with the most delays. :P

Shame there aren't any other London stations on the ECML that could handle this amount of people, or so it seems.

 

[ainsworth74]

London to Birmingham and the North via Salisbury!

Har har

I was more thinking of access to the west of the country to compensate for Paddington when I put Waterloo in rather than heading north (that's what Marylebone is for)

 

[21C101]

Har har

I was more thinking of access to the west of the country to compensate for Paddington when I put Waterloo in rather than heading north (that's what Marylebone is for)

There used to be a service from Manchester to Waterloo via Bristol I recall in the early days of Eurostar. The SWT service to Bristol is the legacy of it.

 

[DarloRich]

Eh? You a Network Rail planner? Come on guy you know as much as us, back off sir.

I am just trying to look at all of the picture and suggest alternatives that aren’t quite as dramatic as some suggest and point out that we don’t know what went wrong and why.

The whole thing is terrible; but let’s try and find out why it is terrible and fix it before we sack everyone! Many just want people sacked, today, now, this instant! Will that help?