Ely West Curve - No passenger services?

[Trainfan344]

I remember there being a regular passenger service over Ely West Curve on a sunday, but has this service been stopped now?

 

[323235]

No the 1554 EMT service from Norwich - Manchester Piccadilly is still booked to use it but from time to time they used to insert Ely as an additional stop, I assume they still do that, I would hazard a guess it is if the driver hasn't got the required route knowledge but others would confirm this.

 

[First class]

(Thanks to this very forum I'm now quite hooked on RealTimeTrains!)

But anyway, the only service I can find is this one:


http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C80636/2015/01/18/advanced

1R54 1554 Norwich to Manchester Piccadilly
Runs SuO between 14/12/2014 to 10/05/2015

That's a bizarre service in itself, because when it gets to Manchester, it seems to wait there from 20:38 until 21:44, before going empty stock back to Nottingham, (via probable diversion routes), when it could attach to 1L20 instead and go in passenger service, or just go as a single unit in passenger service to Chesterfield & Nottingham?

 

[Tomnick]

The following train from Norwich drops on top of it at Picc, and they go back ECS together. All for a good cause, I'm sure!

 

[D6975]

IF the ambitious Anglia plans go ahead, the curve will be reinstated as bi-directional (currently East-West only) and become the 'normal' route for Peterborough-Norwich route services.
(Ely would get a new station slightly North of the existing one)

 

[First class]

IF the ambitious Anglia plans go ahead, the curve will be reinstated as bi-directional (currently East-West only) and become the 'normal' route for Peterborough-Norwich route services.
(Ely would get a new station slightly North of the existing one)

What plans for Anglia?? I've heard that the Liverpool-Norwich service was looking at being split to TPE or being diverted to Cambridge etc...

or are there some major infrastructure upgrades etc taking place?

Sorry not my part of the country.

 

[glbotu]

I thought the Ely Interchange was only part of a general study about having a Greater Anglia Taktfahrplan (German/Swiss style timetable with connecting trains everywhere). In order to successfully have this working, a new railway station in the vicinity of Ely North Junction would be required, so that a clockface connection system can be in place.

See here for details.

 

[D6975]

I thought the Ely Interchange was only part of a general study about having a Greater Anglia Taktfahrplan (German/Swiss style timetable with connecting trains everywhere). In order to successfully have this working, a new railway station in the vicinity of Ely North Junction would be required, so that a clockface connection system can be in place.

See here for details.

Hence the IF

 

[Trainfan344]

Thanks for the information, I only asked as PSUL wasn't showing the line as being used.

 

[glbotu]

Fair.

I mean, I'm definitely for a Greater Anglia Taktfahrplan. It increases frequencies hugely across the board, although, as you say, the plans are very ambitious and require a huge amount of major infrastructure works, such as:

Ely North Interchange
Ely North Junction Grade separation
Complete rebuild of Cambridge
Complete re-tracking Shepreth Branch Jn - Coldham's Lane Jn
Doubling Cambridge - Stowmarket
Doubling Peterborough - Newmarket (and re-instate the chord there)
Doubling Kings Lynn - Ely
Doubling Felixstowe Branch
Doubling East Suffolk Line
Grade separating Bow Junction (West of Stratford)
3 new platforms at Norwich
Rebuild and relocate Reedham Station
Electrify Ely - Norwich, removing Level Crossings as you go
Complete re-build of Stanstead Airport and Branch
4 Tracking Coppermill Jn - Harlow Town
Grade Separation Coppermill Jn

 

[bunnahabhain]

The following train from Norwich drops on top of it at Picc, and they go back ECS together. All for a good cause, I'm sure!

Spot on, the first driver (and guard) are booked a PNB there whilst the second driver returns on the cushions. It couldn't couple to 1L20 because attaching and detaching isn't usually permitted at platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly as it would cause significant disruption on what is a two track railway.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the information, I only asked as PSUL wasn't showing the line as being used.

You need to search for "West Curve" rather than "Ely West Curve".

http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/2015.htm

 

[Trainfan344]

More the fact that I was thrown off by the fact that they don't classify it as East Anglia...

 

[dk1]

IF the ambitious Anglia plans go ahead, the curve will be reinstated as bi-directional (currently East-West only) and become the 'normal' route for Peterborough-Norwich route services.
(Ely would get a new station slightly North of the existing one)

It is bi-directional now & has been for around a year or so. Only double-blocking of signals that have not been withdrawn & doubt this will happen until it is re-doubled.

 

[306024]

Hence the IF

Me thinks you should have put the IF in a bigger font. There is no sign of where any funding is coming from to finance this lot. (Unless we cancel HS2 perhaps )

 

[CockneySparrow]

IF the ambitious Anglia plans go ahead, the curve will be reinstated as bi-directional (currently East-West only) and become the 'normal' route for Peterborough-Norwich route services.
(Ely would get a new station slightly North of the existing one)

The loop is now BI DI, was done about 18 months ago, and why would Ely want a new station it doesn't male any sense, what about the traffic from the Fen Line, it would be impossible to put a new station north of Ely to capture all the current trains, and even if they could why would they want to when the current one is adequate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What plans for Anglia?? I've heard that the Liverpool-Norwich service was looking at being split to TPE or being diverted to Cambridge etc...

or are there some major infrastructure upgrades etc taking place?

Sorry not my part of the country.

Is it really required when the Fen Line goes half an hour in a couple of years time, to me there isn't enough demand for that let alone another service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is bi-directional now & has been for around a year or so. Only double-blocking of signals that have not been withdrawn & doubt this will happen until it is re-doubled.

Is there a requirement for it to be redoubled?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair.

I mean, I'm definitely for a Greater Anglia Taktfahrplan. It increases frequencies hugely across the board, although, as you say, the plans are very ambitious and require a huge amount of major infrastructure works, such as:

Ely North Interchange
Ely North Junction Grade separation
Complete rebuild of Cambridge
Complete re-tracking Shepreth Branch Jn - Coldham's Lane Jn
Doubling Cambridge - Stowmarket
Doubling Peterborough - Newmarket (and re-instate the chord there)
Doubling Kings Lynn - Ely
Doubling Felixstowe Branch
Doubling East Suffolk Line
Grade separating Bow Junction (West of Stratford)
3 new platforms at Norwich
Rebuild and relocate Reedham Station
Electrify Ely - Norwich, removing Level Crossings as you go
Complete re-build of Stanstead Airport and Branch
4 Tracking Coppermill Jn - Harlow Town
Grade Separation Coppermill Jn

Cambridge to Stowmarket is mostly double, the only section that isn't is between Cambridge and Chippenham Junction where it picks up they Bury to Ely section (at the triangle Newmarket), I think there is a small stretch of double at Dullingham but isn't used with the second Dullingham platform closed

It will cost millions to redouble the Ely to Kings Lynn line and will never be done, the reason it is single as the land has a habit of sinking between Littleport and Downham Market so the existing track now sits in the middle of the trackbed, also the masts run one side then switch to the other side so its safe to say that any redoubling will mean the whole lot needs to be ripped up/out, that's the problem down there, not having a go at you but most think that you can just lay another track next to the original line and job done

Peterborough to Cambridge via Newmarket isn't viable, cant see how they can get any sort of money back by putting the missing chord back in, nobody from Ely going to Cambridge that way whether they are allowed to or not, Dullingham is a sleepy village and there is a bus from Ely number 12 that runs hourly to Newmarket drops off in the small shopping centre and cost £6 for a dayrider, suppose it would save a few pennies when there is engineering works on the existing line for a couple of weekends a year by not having replacement buses

 

[306024]

Cambridge to Stowmarket is mostly double, the only section that isn't is between Cambridge and Chippenham Junction where it picks up they Bury to Ely section (at the triangle Newmarket), I think there is a small stretch of double at Dullingham but isn't used with the second Dullingham platform closed

Both platforms at Dullingham are still in use. Go there at 08.00 Mon - Fri to see two trains calling there.

 

[dk1]

Is there a requirement for it to be redoubled?

I thought you where joking at first but then saw no 'winking' face. I was talking about the junction. Did you mean the curve?

 

[CockneySparrow]

I thought you where joking at first but then saw no 'winking' face. I was talking about the junction. Did you mean the curve?

Yes I meant the curve that goes round the back of DS Smiths and comes out on the Peterborough line, agreed the junction itself needs to be redoubled

Looks like we have got our wires or should I say tracks crossed lol ??????

On another note you should be able to see an EMT HST go round there at the end of March on route to Middleton Towers through UK Railtours

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Both platforms at Dullingham are still in use. Go there at 08.00 Mon - Fri to see two trains calling there.

Yes forgot about that, but its not used any other time

 

[glbotu]

Peterborough to Cambridge via Newmarket isn't viable, cant see how they can get any sort of money back by putting the missing chord back in, nobody from Ely going to Cambridge that way whether they are allowed to or not, Dullingham is a sleepy village and there is a bus from Ely number 12 that runs hourly to Newmarket drops off in the small shopping centre and cost £6 for a dayrider, suppose it would save a few pennies when there is engineering works on the existing line for a couple of weekends a year by not having replacement buses

If you look at the plans (set out in the pdf linked to from the thread I linked earlier), you'll see the point isn't Peterborough - Cambridge via Newmarket. My list of infrastructure plans was simply a summary what was written in the linked thread, not a list of personal suggestions. The point is to operate 2tph Ipswich - Cambridge and 2tph Newmarket - Peterborough, with cross platform interchange at Newmarket. The reason for the "Ely North" station is that the timings don't work out very well to allow short connections (the basis of the taktfahrplan principle) with the current position of Ely. The appendix has a full, detailed list of infrastructure works.

I mostly made this list with a view to showing how extensive the work proposed for this very ambitious plan is (possibly suggesting it were unlikely to happen).

NB: I'd recommend the document, it's very interesting, if a little fanciful.

 

[D6975]

The loop is now BI DI, was done about 18 months ago, and why would Ely want a new station it doesn't male any sense, what about the traffic from the Fen Line, it would be impossible to put a new station north of Ely to capture all the current trains, and even if they could why would they want to when the current one is adequate

No it isn't, the station would be after the loop joins and before the junctions for Pboro/Norwich. All services would be able to call there with the further advantage that services on NR-Pboro route wouldn't have to reverse or cross the level crossing twice.

It's a bit tight and one platform might have to be on the actual curve .

Edit - looking at google earth the best position would be to put the platforms N of the junctions, with 2 seperate platforms for each route.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The station won't be moved. It's a waste of money and building curved platforms is frowned upon these days. There is no space.

 

[CockneySparrow]

The station won't be moved. It's a waste of money and building curved platforms is frowned upon these days. There is no space.

Yes as its considered a safety issue when its time shut the doors and move the train on, that's one of a number of the reasons the GA short set will never run to Cambridge because the platform at Thetford
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it isn't, the station would be after the loop joins and before the junctions for Pboro/Norwich. All services would be able to call there with the further advantage that services on NR-Pboro route wouldn't have to reverse or cross the level crossing twice.

It's a bit tight and one platform might have to be on the actual curve .

Edit - looking at google earth the best position would be to put the platforms N of the junctions, with 2 seperate platforms for each route.

Track work might be tight as the current Ely stations opens out to hold upto 4 trains at any one time, not to mention the two lines that bypass the platforms opposite platform 3

 

[bunnahabhain]

Yes as its considered a safety issue when its time shut the doors and move the train on, that's one of a number of the reasons the GA short set will never run to Cambridge because the platform at Thetford

I'm not sure that is a valid reason why it won't run to Cambridge, it makes no difference if its slam door or power door, it is still a curved platform and the guard must make sure they're in the correct position to dispatch if the train is too long to see. As the short set is...well...rather short...I can't imagine that is an issue at all.

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not sure that is a valid reason why it won't run to Cambridge, it makes no difference if its slam door or power door, it is still a curved platform and the guard must make sure they're in the correct position to dispatch if the train is too long to see. As the short set is...well...rather short...I can't imagine that is an issue at all.

Well it is. Slam door stock cannot call at Thetford.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Well it is. Slam door stock cannot call at Thetford.

Indeed, just looked it up. Slam door stock must not call in the Down direction unless must be specially authorised. No mention about the Up direction.

 

[dk1]

I'm not sure that is a valid reason why it won't run to Cambridge, it makes no difference if its slam door or power door, it is still a curved platform and the guard must make sure they're in the correct position to dispatch if the train is too long to see. As the short set is...well...rather short...I can't imagine that is an issue at all.

Mainly down to the 45mph PSR IT would suffer Ely NJc to Lakenheath. Cannot keep to diagram & 'up' road would receive objections from EMT.

 

[glbotu]

The station won't be moved. It's a waste of money and building curved platforms is frowned upon these days. There is no space.

I don't think the idea is to move the station (that would be calamitous, given that Ely North Junction isn't anywhere near any of Ely), the idea is to add a station, where everything stops, allowing for interchange.

The plan itself is not great for the people of Ely though, While Ely itself has got 4 tph (up from 3), 2 of those go to Newmarket and not Cambridge, which, as someone who's got on a lot of peak time trains that way, seems like madness. Given "Ely North" isn't great as a means of actually getting to Ely, reducing Cambridge - Ely from 3tph to 2tph isn't great, especially when those Ely trains will also stop at Chesterton/Cambridge Science Park and Waterbeach, which will add passengers.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I don't think the idea is to move the station (that would be calamitous, given that Ely North Junction isn't anywhere near any of Ely), the idea is to add a station, where everything stops, allowing for interchange.

The plan itself is not great for the people of Ely though, While Ely itself has got 4 tph (up from 3), 2 of those go to Newmarket and not Cambridge, which, as someone who's got on a lot of peak time trains that way, seems like madness. Given "Ely North" isn't great as a means of actually getting to Ely, reducing Cambridge - Ely from 3tph to 2tph isn't great, especially when those Ely trains will also stop at Chesterton/Cambridge Science Park and Waterbeach, which will add passengers.

GN will be running 2 trains per hour in a couple of years so there will be 4 tph to Cambridge, and nothing goes from Ely to Newmarket as there is no direct link

 

[glbotu]

Right, so, I probably haven't been clear.

I'm aware there's a disconnect between the reality of the future service pattern and the service pattern proposed in "Improving Connectivity", which Network Rail published in December as part of their long term planning process which most of my posts have been concerning.

I think we're commenting on two different things here.

I know there's no connection from Ely - Newmarket now, but "Improving Connectivity" recommends building one, and I'm aware that the service from Cambridge - Ely is going up to 4tph, but if you look at the map on page 28 of "Improving Connectivity", it goes down to 2tph as it takes creates a "Norwich Fast" and makes the Stansted - Birmingham Fast.