Queue Waiting.

[fowler9]

I find pretty much all railway staff to be very reasonable where I live. On occasion I have not been able to buy at the station, never had a problem buying later. In the twenty or so years of my adult life I have dozed off on the train a number of times and woke in some interesting places. I always admit and go to buy a ticket. Some 90% of the time the staff just take pity and let me on the return journey gratis.

 

[Atlantic loco]

Passenger Focus have a section about this issue on their website. They confirm the advice given by previous posters but include the information that TOCs must make reasonable endeavours to meet maximum queuing times of 5 mins peak and 3 mins off peak.

 

[yorkie]

.... TOCs must make reasonable endeavours to meet maximum queuing times of 5 mins peak and 3 mins off peak.

Sadly there's no actual enforcement!

 

[455driver]

Did you not read the post I made about gateline staff at Dartford waving people through because only one ticket machine was working and the ticket office was closed? And no, nobody asked for it in writing:roll:

That will be because the staff would have rung through that they were allowing people onto the train because of the limited purchasing facilities, that phone call (they made) was your authority to travel, staff along the route would have been aware of the problems!
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Passenger Focus have a section about this issue on their website. They confirm the advice given by previous posters but include the information that TOCs must make reasonable endeavours to meet maximum queuing times of 5 mins peak and 3 mins off peak.

But the TOCs are under no obligation to meet these times, it is only a suggestion, not a limit!

 

[WelshBluebird]

So how long before a train should I arrive at the station then?
Half hour, an hour, two hours? What if I can't buy a ticket in that time? Unlikely I grant you, but not totally impossible.

 

[Antman]

So how long before a train should I arrive at the station then?
Half hour, an hour, two hours? What if I can't buy a ticket in that time? Unlikely I grant you, but not totally impossible.

That's the golden question!

 

[furlong]

But the TOCs are under no obligation to meet these times, it is only a suggestion, not a limit!

It's a lot stronger than that: each operator must use its reasonable endeavours to ensure that no-one has to queue for longer than those times (5 minutes peak / 3 minutes off-peak) under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

I have observed train companies taking appropriate action to deal with longer-than-anticipated queues on many occasions. If you ever encounter a significantly longer queue without good reason, do report it to make sure that it is recorded and action is taken.

 

[Flamingo]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

 

[Deerfold]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Once a year it used to take me longer than that to buy my annual season ticket.

I'd queue for 5-10 minutes and then get to the counter. Sometimes there would be 1, sometimes 2 windows open.

It used to cause incredible confusion every year. I'm not quite sure why.

It was a Hitchin +bus to London Terminals ticket (the first year was just to Finsbury Park).

For some reason this used to take an age, involving looking things up in 2 or 3 books, calling over at least one colleague and usually 2 attempts to print out the ticket. A queue was usually building up behind me.

 

[Antman]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

I never have other than the incident I mentioned at Dartford where we were invited to pay at our destination, obviously staff sickness might result in ticket offices being closed and provided that people are allowed to buy a ticket on the train or at their destination then it's not too much of a problem, yes a few people will probably take advantage of that and not pay at all but there we are. Obviously if there is then a big queue at the excess fair window at your destination, as one poster mentioned, what happens then? I think train companies would acknowledge that they have an obligation to provide adequate facilities and wouldn't try and hide behind unworkable rules and regulations.

 

[island]

The reason we're going around in circles is because this is the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum. People have been, and will continue to be, brought before the courts because they boarded without a ticket. It is not acceptable to simply say that they "should be fine", and "in most cases there doesn't seem to be a problem" when the potential result is a criminal prosecution.

I stand by what I've said several times - if the queue is excessively long, you cannot assume that you will be able to buy on board or at your destination and you are not entitled to board the train. In these circumstances you should seek authority from staff before you board the train.

This is the key point. It is not at all appropriate for us to be using terms such as "entitled" or "permitted" to board a train when waiting times exceed X minutes because no such entitlement exists at law. We have a responsibility to give advice that is correct and that will not get our members into trouble, and to qualify posts that are no more than our opinion of how things should be.

Whilst in many cases staff will permit passengers to board without a ticket or to purchase a ticket later than the first opportunity to do so, it cannot be emphasised enough that without permission it is a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station that has ticketing facilities which are in working order. End of.

 

[joke2711]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

Leasowe Station on Merseyrail. At least once a month especially when weekly/monthly tickets were being renewed I would arrive 15 minutes before departure and often miss that train to West Kirby. Once I asked the Staff member if I could board the train to which permission was refused.

 

[rmt4ever]

This is really stupid. If I buy a time restricted ticket on line, I can pick it up at any time at a TVM, even though that same TVM will refuse to sell me that same ticket.

Yeah I was once travelling with my old granny from Padd. She had just had a long walk and recently had an OP and needed a sit down, I sat her on a bench as it was a bit of a walk for her across the whole station and then back to the platform.

So I went to get her ticket from the booking office (as I always would do even if it takes longer than would do using TVM- keep the booking offices open!) and asked for the single with her SNR RC. The clerk refused to sell it unless I could produce my old granny along with her railcard at the window. I explained the situation and asked what's the point as if I was trying to impersonate a OAP (aged 24 at the time) I could just buy the discounted ticket from the TVM anyway ... :roll: (which I did in the end)

 

[Antman]

This is the key point. It is not at all appropriate for us to be using terms such as "entitled" or "permitted" to board a train when waiting times exceed X minutes because no such entitlement exists at law. We have a responsibility to give advice that is correct and that will not get our members into trouble, and to qualify posts that are no more than our opinion of how things should be.

Whilst in many cases staff will permit passengers to board without a ticket or to purchase a ticket later than the first opportunity to do so, it cannot be emphasised enough that without permission it is a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station that has ticketing facilities which are in working order. End of.

I think we have established that, the scenario was that the ticket machine wasn't in working order and this had resulted in an excessive queue at the ticket office window. Ideally passengers should ask a member of staff first but what if the person in the ticket office is busy and there is nobody around to ask?
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Leasowe Station on Merseyrail. At least once a month especially when weekly/monthly tickets were being renewed I would arrive 15 minutes before departure and often miss that train to West Kirby. Once I asked the Staff member if I could board the train to which permission was refused.

A complaint would be going in about that if I were you.

 

[rs101]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

Not 15 minutes - just 10 minutes recently. At Manningtree station and card wouldn't read in TVM for some reason (yet worked to pay for tickets at the booking office). The person ahead of me was renewing a season ticket, plus getting some other tickets for a different trip.

In the end, the clerk asked that person to wait while he dealt with me and the 3 others in the queue behind.

 

[najaB]

I think train companies would acknowledge that they have an obligation to provide adequate facilities and wouldn't try and hide behind unworkable rules and regulations.

Approximately 1.6 billion rail journeys were made last year so if the rules and regulations were 'unworkable' the courts would be paralysed by millions of fare evasion cases.

Last time I checked, they were not.

Draw your own conclusions about the 'unworkability' of the existing ticketing regulations.

 

[maniacmartin]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

I have queued over 15 minutes on a few occasions at London Victoria and Waterloo on sunny summer Saturday mornings around 10am, when there are hoards of leisure travellers at the stations.

 

[Antman]

Approximately 1.6 billion rail journeys were made last year so if the rules and regulations were 'unworkable' the courts would be paralysed by millions of fare evasion cases.

Last time I checked, they were not.

Draw your own conclusions about the 'unworkability' of the existing ticketing regulations.

Or to look at it another way, if every person who boarded a train without a ticket had been prosecuted the courts surely would be paralysed by millions of fare evasion cases.

 

[najaB]

Or to look at it another way, if every person who boarded a train without a ticket had been prosecuted the courts surely would be paralysed by millions of fare evasion cases.

Which proves that the regulations aren't unworkable. Can we move on now, please?

 

[Clip]

I love a good queuing discussion.. Its what, one a month now isn't it?

And its all very subjective too.

 

[Antman]

Which proves that the regulations aren't unworkable. Can we move on now, please?

Funny but I thought it proved the exact opposite................but anyway, yes lets move on

 

[najaB]

And its all very subjective too.

People's opinions on what should happen when there is a queue are subjective People's opinions on what should happen when there is a queue at the ticket office/TVM are subjective, the law is not. And some people can't tell the difference.

 

[Clip]

Wow I wasn't aware there was a law about queuing!!

 

[najaB]

Wow I wasn't aware there was a law about queuing!!

What, you mean tutting at someone who doesn't join the queue isn't law?!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

I think the longest I have had to wait was 35 minutes at Castle Cary. Mainly due to delays causing havoc with the arrival patterns, the poor guy who has to man the ticket office and dispatch the HST's and deal with passenger questions was way too busy to actually sell tickets to many people (I think he managed to serve 3 customers plus myself in that time).

Also had to wait 20 minutes at Bristol Temple Meads once, but that was because I was travelling from Keynsham (no ticket purchasing facilities) and so couldn't just use the ticket machines as most other people would have been able to do.

I agree it isn't a likely situation that someone turning up in plenty of time would face, but to discount the situation totally is a little naive I think. Especially at stations like Castle Cary where there isn't a ticket machine and one member of staff has to do everything.

 

[najaB]

I agree it isn't a likely situation that someone turning up in plenty of time would face, but to discount the situation totally is a little naive I think. Especially at stations like Castle Cary where there isn't a ticket machine and one member of staff has to do everything.

In situations like the one you've described where people are frequently having to wait, what the TOC should do is put up signs giving people permission to buy on board if the queue is too long to wait. It would be worth writing to the TOC concerned and raising it as an issue.

However, if they don't put up a sign then passengers have to either wait or put themselves at risk of a Byelaw 18 prosecution.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In situations like the one you've described where people are frequently having to wait, what the TOC should do is put up signs giving people permission to buy on board if the queue is too long to wait. It would be worth writing to the TOC concerned and raising it as an issue.

However, if they don't put up a sign then passengers have to either wait or put themselves at risk of a Byelaw 18 prosecution.

To be fair, I've just done a google and it does look like there is now a ticket machine at Castle Cary. So at least something has been done.

 

[Clip]

In situations like the one you've described where people are frequently having to wait, what the TOC should do is put up signs giving people permission to buy on board if the queue is too long to wait. It would be worth writing to the TOC concerned and raising it as an issue.

However, if they don't put up a sign then passengers have to either wait or put themselves at risk of a Byelaw 18 prosecution.

Sorry I disagree with this as as soon as you start this then that's when people start abusing it and theres enough of that going on anyway

 

[dviner]

Sorry I disagree with this as as soon as you start this then that's when people start abusing it and theres enough of that going on anyway

Make it an electronic sign whose usage results in an SMS/email to Guards/RPI's etc - "HML Buy On Board Activated 10:15 21/01/2015". Not beyond the realms of impossibility...

 

[MikeWh]

Back in the real world for a minute, how many people on here have ever had to queue for fifteen or twenty minutes to buy a ticket and under what circumstances?

Please, no second-hand tales about my mate down the pub's wifes Aunty, but personal tales of sorrow and woe, but put the context - for example, if there was a TVM free but it wouldn't sell your three-stop split and rover with railcard, don't forget to mention that as well, or if it was the Bank Holiday weekend at 5pm on a Friday...

(I will make the reasonable assumption that any poster on the thread to date not giving at least one example has never actually had such a delay, but is just jumping on the outrage bus.)

OK, a few years back at Barnehurst station on the evening of the annual free fireworks display on Blackheath. One TVM, ticket office closed, no other staff around. Queue halfway down the approach road, probably 50 deep. The choice was either wait to pay and miss the display or travel free. You do have to wonder what decisions had been made by SET about staffing that night. There were no ticket purchasing facilites at Blackheath either. At least these days most people use Oyster PAYG so it's not so much of a problem.