Metrolink to go regional?

[Greybeard33]

Please bear in mind that besides the normal train services that use the Styal line, plus those that you also refer to in the part of your posting that I have emboldened above, there are paths that are also used by the existing container freight trains that use the Styal line to save them having to pass through Stockport station. Can someone say what the daily service pattern are for these and the time period when such container trains will continue to be scheduled alongst this line?

The Northern Hub proposals envisaged a second hourly path through Piccadilly for Trafford Park container trains.

I'm having trouble working out what those trains are, but there are only 26 trains - 7 are listed as cancelled and another seven are 'unactivated'.
So 12 trains, I have to assume this is a typical working day.
Several of the others are not actually required to route over the WCML if they take alternate routes - for instance one appears to be going from Guide Bridge to Runcorn, could that not be routed via Manchester Victoria for example? Although that would require several reversals its not as if freight is massively time concious.
So it seems like you would only have to cancel a handful of freight trains a day to be able to turn the entire route over to Metrolink operation and drastically reduce its operating costs.

As it connects to nothing else if you just accept this you can also close the Stockport-Altrincham section and convert that to an orbital Metrolink section if you want.

I think it is one of those things about the 'modern' railway that we have become so obsesed with the idea that we should have freight running on all lines that it strangles any attempt to improve what the railway does best - moving large numbers of passengers cheaply.

The most frequent freight services on the Mid-Cheshire, in reality rather than booked paths, are the "binliners" to the Runcorn incinerator from the Greater Manchester Waste terminals at Northenden, Bredbury and Brindle Heath. Arguably what this particular railway line does best is keeping these bulk freight flows of the congested roads - if the line were closed to freight the only realistic alternative would be to replace each train by 20+ heavy container lorries. Would this be a good trade for enhancing the passenger service on a line where the demand is currently insufficient to fill an hourly two-car DMU except in the peaks?

Although the paths are less frequently used, the Mid-Cheshire is also very useful in enabling long-distance freight to avoid central Manchester and/or avoid the double track sections of WCML between Stockport and Sandbach and between Winsford and Hartford. This enables more passenger paths on lines that do move large numbers of passengers.

 

[507 001]

It's not a lower top speed - the T68s were also 50mph. The problem is the M5000s aren't cleared to run at T68 speeds on parts of the Altrincham and Bury lines so have their own lower speed limits. That caused problems with interworking Bury-Altrincham and Bury/Altrincham-Piccadilly services when a mix of M5000s and T68s were used - they finished up with a M5000 running an Altrincham-Bury service departing Market Street 2-3 minutes ahead of a T68 running a Piccadilly-Bury service instead of 6 minutes ahead.

It's actually a bit more involved than that.

Yes there was one long stretch of speed restricted track for M5000s which was a pain but this has now gone.

The problem is more that the M5000s actually accelerate slower than T68s and have much slower door cycle times.

They also have fewer seats which hasn't gone down well with passengers.

 

[Emyr]

Arguably what this particular railway line does best is keeping these bulk freight flows of the congested roads - if the line were closed to freight the only realistic alternative would be to replace each train by 20+ heavy container lorries. Would this be a good trade for enhancing the passenger service on a line where the demand is currently insufficient to fill an hourly two-car DMU except in the peaks?

There's a perfectly good alignment between Timperley and somewhere near Chat Moss which could be resurrected if freight is that important. I don't think much of the trackbed has been lost but we'd need a new bridge over the ship canal.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a perfectly good alignment between Timperley and somewhere near Chat Moss which could be resurrected if freight is that important. I don't think much of the trackbed has been lost but we'd need a new bridge over the ship canal.

The route from Skelton to Glazebrook is indeed largely intact, but it leads to the CLC route which has no connection to the WCML where they cross in Warrington. So the only major place accessible by this route is Liverpool, and virtually all rail freight at Liverpool is to and from the south or north rather than east. The CLC is also at capacity with a mixture of fast and slow passenger trains.

In contrast freight on the mid-Cheshire can access the WCML southwards via Northwich and Sandbach, or the WCML northwards via the connection near Hartford, or various Welsh routes via Chester. The Chat Moss route also has WCML connections via Parkside or Earlestown.

 

[snowball]

I thought TfGM was committed to extension of the East Didsbury line to Stockport?

There are big problems with East Didsbury to Stockport which aren't obvious from just looking at it on a map. Much of the former rail alignment no longer exists.

A route was selected about ten years ago but it's quite expensive, involving a major bridge over the M60 and River Mersey where the one crosses the other, two other bridges over the Mersey, a cut-and-cover tunnel where a former rail cutting has been infilled, and one other bridge under a road where the original bridge has been rebuilt as a pedestrian tunnel. Stockport Council has never seemed very keen on it. It seems alternatives are now being looked at.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's a perfectly good alignment between Timperley and somewhere near Chat Moss which could be resurrected if freight is that important. I don't think much of the trackbed has been lost but we'd need a new bridge over the ship canal.

I wonder if there has been any recent costings done on the financial cost of a suitable bridge replacement that will meet the latest regulatory requirements.

 

[HSTEd]

The most frequent freight services on the Mid-Cheshire, in reality rather than booked paths, are the "binliners" to the Runcorn incinerator from the Greater Manchester Waste terminals at Northenden, Bredbury and Brindle Heath.

Arguably what this particular railway line does best is keeping these bulk freight flows of the congested roads - if the line were closed to freight the only realistic alternative would be to replace each train by 20+ heavy container lorries. Would this be a good trade for enhancing the passenger service on a line where the demand is currently insufficient to fill an hourly two-car DMU except in the peaks?

The problem is that this route has effectively had the heavily used part of it lopped off to form part of Metrolink - this leaves trains running around for miles just to reach Altrincham in a time that barely manages to beat the tram.
Having multiple trams per hour on that corridor would likely lead to explosive passenger growth.

Some of those binliner routes are awfully convoluted as it is - for instance the Bredburys depot (the only rail attached facility I could find on Google Earth, appears to have lots of open topped containers so I think its the right one) appears to require a route via Hyde Stalybridge and Stockport. Which involves crossing the WCML on the flat - which can't be good for paths.
The northenden facility appears to be more reasonable as it corrects directly to the Stockport-Altrincham section of the route - however it would be possible to convert the branch leading into Stockport station into a Metrolink routing and retain a rail connection via Hazel Grove - which would lead to the freight requiring reversals to get to runcorn but nothing much more tortuous than the Bredburys one.

Also I can't work out where exactly the rail connection for the Bindle Heath depot is - but since that is in northern manchester would it not be possible to run via Wigan or similar to reach Runcorn?

Although the paths are less frequently used, the Mid-Cheshire is also very useful in enabling long-distance freight to avoid central Manchester and/or avoid the double track sections of WCML between Stockport and Sandbach and between Winsford and Hartford. This enables more passenger paths on lines that do move large numbers of passengers.

Only a handful of freight trains - the question is whether this handful of trains is really worth making the Mid Cheshire line into a backwater that will never fulfill its passenger carrying possibilities.
Hell, you could make a decent Metrolink route just out of the Altrincham-Stockport section as it can get you very close to Stockport station (and at the right height) before forcing you off onto the roads for the last few hundred metres. And large parts of the built up areas around it are residential.
With a chord or section of suitable line where the Airport line crosses the alignment you coudl get you the much desired Stockport connection as well.

But there we go.

EDIT: I think I found the place where the Airport link crosses the Stockport-Altrincham line [Adjacent to Roundthorn Industrial estate]. There is certainly room for a City Centre to Stockport Curve, I believe there would be also room between the buildings for a minimum curve radius chord between Stockport and the Airport - which has important uses for supporting HS2 in future.

 

[Altnabreac]

I can't see that happening. You can take a journey on the 07:17 Manchester-Chester on a weekday if you want to see how well used Altrincham-Northwich is as a commuter train.

As I said if there is sufficient demand then you can extend the Stockport - Altrincham Metrolink to Knutsford.

A cheaper alternative would be to build a new interchange station just to the north east of the existing Mobberley station on the new joint Metrolink / heavy rail alignment.

Altrincham - Knutsford / Northwich passengers could interchange here with a very small time penalty that would be insignificant compared to the general uplift in frequency and other journey opportunities.

 

[mwmbwls]

This question is being discussed simultaneously on SSC.

The only satisfactory long term solution is the opening of the Manchester Airport Western Access Rail Link whereby trains would leave Piccadilly travel to the Airport via Heald Green and to the airport and onwards to Chester and North Wales - similar to the sometime soon to be built WRATH (Western Rail Access to Heathrow) project at Heathrow. The conflicting ideas being kicked about over the internal configuration of tram-trains being operated in an urban environment and those operated as a light rail cross country system are hard to reconcile. The Chester tram trains with journey times over an hour need a toilet - on the rest of urban tram train and tram networks that's a waste of space. Passengers from Chester who particularly want to continue to go to Stockport would able to have cross platform interchange at the Airport (assuming we are still not messing about with revenue protection anomalies and the Stockport Airport link gets built).

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=120970147&postcount=7647

The context in which this problem is seen is important. Western Rail Access to Manchester Airport (WRATMA) would ameliorate not only the problems of mid-Cheshire passengers but also those of passengers from Chester, the Borders and North Wales. In principle it is almost always better to treat root causes than tinker with symptoms.

 

[Emyr]

Can we call it Westward Rail Extension to Cheshire (WRETCH) please?

 

[pemma]

A cheaper alternative would be to build a new interchange station just to the north east of the existing Mobberley station on the new joint Metrolink / heavy rail alignment.

I don't think an Interchange station in Mobberley would work. It's better to have one just off a main road then in the middle of nowhere.

There is a proposal to build a new station in Knutsford at the north eastern end of Parkgate Industrial Estate. The developer who proposed it was presuming the tram-train proposal between Knutsford and Altrincham would go ahead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also I can't work out where exactly the rail connection for the Bindle Heath depot is - but since that is in northern Manchester would it not be possible to run via Wigan or similar to reach Runcorn?

Brindle Heath, to give it its correct area name, is in the Pendleton area of Salford, not at all in northern Manchester. If you travel by train from Manchester to Bolton, after passing through Salford Crescent station, the line bifurcates and the tracks taking the right fork are those going to Bolton, You will then enter a sight of elderly industrial buildings such as the J.Mandleberg proofing works which is in an area where the former 2-platform Pendleton Bridge station (not to be confused with the former 4-platform Pendleton Broad Street station on the Atherton line) once was and shortly on the left hand side, you will come across the Brindle Heath rail-served waste facility.

The words "heath" and "northern Manchester" that seem to have confused you and would suggest that you are making reference to the similar rail-served waste facility that was on the Oldham loop line (now the Oldham/Rochdale line of the Manchester Metrolink system). After taking the line bifurcation at Thorpes Bridge Junction, the line passed to the side of the Newton Heath railway depot, then passes the site of the former Dean Lane station and shortly afterwards, on the left hand side heading in the Oldham direction, you will see the Newton Heath rail-served facility. An interesting observation is that the heavy-rail link to that waste depot needed to be retained to provide heavy-rail access, so effectively instead of the former two running lines for rail traffic, there are two parallel single line, one for heavy rail access into the waste depot and one for the use of the Manchester Metrolink system. This, of course means that the former Dean Lane station (now the Manchester Metrolink Newton Heath and Moston stop) is only one platform and the other platform where the heavy-rail passes was totally removed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think an Interchange station in Mobberley would work. It's better to have one just off a main road then in the middle of nowhere.

Like you, being well-versed in this area, I was amazed to see Mobberley station suggested as an interchange facility. A visit to the site of the railway station and the Cheshire village-type lanes in that area would be well worth Altnabreac making to see for himself what it is like in real life.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some of those binliner routes are awfully convoluted as it is - for instance the Bredburys depot (the only rail attached facility I could find on Google Earth, appears to have lots of open topped containers so I think its the right one).

The "open-topped" rail units to which you allude are not that used by the Manchester waste-compaction depot traffic, as I think that all those units are dedicated totally-enclosed containers.

I do remember seeing some open-topped units on the rail system transporting large consignments of other types of rail served traffic. I will, if times have moved on, stand to be corrected on this matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it perhaps make sense just to deal with Ashley and Mobberley either with a connecting bus service, or a Pacer running a service back and forth about once every 2 hours between Chester and Altrincham (with times arranged based on current peaks for that specific journey), with the main service going the other way?

The vast majority are almost certainly going to Manchester.

Neil

 

[Jonny]

The route from Skelton to Glazebrook is indeed largely intact, but it leads to the CLC route which has no connection to the WCML where they cross in Warrington. So the only major place accessible by this route is Liverpool, and virtually all rail freight at Liverpool is to and from the south or north rather than east. The CLC is also at capacity with a mixture of fast and slow passenger trains.

After that, there is then the issue of catch-up maintenance on the bridge over the ship canal.

 

[Emyr]

The vast majority are almost certainly going to Manchester.

Neil

Are you assuming this or have you observed it? The peak morning services southbound are dominated by flows from Stockport and from Altrincham.

 

[Altnabreac]

Like you, being well-versed in this area, I was amazed to see Mobberley station suggested as an interchange facility. A visit to the site of the railway station and the Cheshire village-type lanes in that area would be well worth Altnabreac making to see for himself what it is like in real life.

It really doesn't matter whether there is anything there except a field Paul (and I am well aware it is only a field).

Indeed I wasn't suggesting the current Mobberly station site but somewhere to the north east which would be even more of an empty field.

The point would be to provide an interchange between the Heavy Rail and Metrolink lines to ensure optimum connections from Altrincham to Knutsford and Northwich.

For me the ideal solution would be a Metrolink line from Altrincham to Knutsford but should this be adjudged a large expense with a poor business case an alternative option to provide a convenient interchange might be required.

We could look at examples such as Dovey Junction or Manulla Junction to see how such a system might work. Or perhaps closer to home Cornbrook would be a relevant example although it's less leafy but equally desolated...

 

[Emyr]

Changing trains at apocalyptic wasteland is not generally considered a pleasant experience.

 

[pemma]

Would it perhaps make sense just to deal with Ashley and Mobberley either with a connecting bus service, or a Pacer running a service back and forth about once every 2 hours between Chester and Altrincham (with times arranged based on current peaks for that specific journey), with the main service going the other way?

The vast majority are almost certainly going to Manchester.

Mobberley is a large village, larger than a number of market towns. The difference is it's a lot less densely populated. Mobberley is served by the 88 bus as well but the main road is around 2 miles from the station so it's almost like the bus serves one village and the train serves another.

I don't really see Mobberley and Ashley being an issue. The business case for closing the line between Knutsford and Hale would be very poor even if the Airport line was built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We could look at examples such as Dovey Junction

Few people change there and rarely does it make sense to do so (I think one train per day or something where the timing works best?)

The staff will suggest you double back to Mach where assistance can be provided if there are problems.

Neil

 

[Altnabreac]

Changing trains at apocalyptic wasteland is not generally considered a pleasant experience.

Yes but we're not discussing Birmingham New Street

 

[mwmbwls]

Would it perhaps make sense just to deal with Ashley and Mobberley either with a connecting bus service, or a Pacer running a service back and forth about once every 2 hours between Chester and Altrincham (with times arranged based on current peaks for that specific journey), with the main service going the other way?

The vast majority are almost certainly going to Manchester.

Neil

I have friends in the Cheshire Local Enterprise Partnership that would beat you to death with their tongues for that kind of heresy. The mid-Cheshire line is already well used for long and short distance commuting and easy access to employment opportunities at the Airport and the associated Airport City Complex are seen as integral to the LEP's plans, dreams and schemes. Having softened you up with that rebuff - I leave it now to Paul, (a household name in his household in that part of Cheshire before he moved to the more civilised part) to drag you to the tumbrils to await your fate.

 

[pemma]

Are you assuming this or have you observed it? The peak morning services southbound are dominated by flows from Stockport and from Altrincham.

Indeed. Which is why the problem with the 07:17 Manchester-Chester keeps failing to be addressed. It isn't classed as overcrowded between Manchester and Navigation Road (so TfGM think it's OK) but has a passenger total which comes to more than double the number of seats arriving at Knutsford and passenger counts at Knutsford aren't high on Northern's or DfT's list of priorities, while MCRUA and Cheshire East council aren't seen as major influential forces.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Mobberley is a large village, larger than a number of market towns. The difference is it's a lot less densely populated. Mobberley is served by the 88 bus as well but the main road is around 2 miles from the station so it's almost like the bus serves one village and the train serves another.

I don't really see Mobberley and Ashley being an issue. The business case for closing the line between Knutsford and Hale would be very poor even if the Airport line was built.

Now then, I am fully aware of the fact that Mobberley does have its natural centre with shops, etc and the former Ilford photographic works facility was once a notable landmark in the area, but is now gone and the site used for housing. If you recall, I actually used the 88 bus from Wilmslow to Knutsford via Mobberley on the first day that the new Gold buses with the narrow table areas at the rear of the bus ran.

The problem is that Mobberley station, unlike that of Chelford station, is that it is not situated on the line of the main road that passes through the village but is actually situated a fair distance away to the north of the village in the rural environs up Smith Lane. How far do you make the distance from the railway station to the B5085 Knutsford Road which is the main road passing through Mobberley?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have friends in the Cheshire Local Enterprise Partnership that would beat you to death with their tongues for that kind of heresy. The mid-Cheshire line is already well used for long and short distance commuting and easy access to employment opportunities at the Airport and the associated Airport City Complex are seen as integral to the LEP's plans, dreams and schemes. Having softened you up with that rebuff - I leave it now to Paul, (a household name in his household in that part of Cheshire before he moved to the more civilised part) to drag you to the tumbrils to await your fate.

I thank you for that accolade..

With regard to a bus service linking Ashley and Mobberley, I think that a typical "market-day" service did indeed run along the narrow country road that connects these two settlements as the middle part of a route between two other settlements very many years ago. I am not too sure, but feel it may have been the E88 service, but at almost 70 years of age, your memory can sometimes play you false...

 

[Greybeard33]

The problem is that this route has effectively had the heavily used part of it lopped off to form part of Metrolink - this leaves trains running around for miles just to reach Altrincham in a time that barely manages to beat the tram.
Having multiple trams per hour on that corridor would likely lead to explosive passenger growth.

The TfGM Tram-train Strategy (Oct 2013) concluded that:

The capital and operating costs of an extension to Knutsford appear too
high for a worthwhile business case to be made in the foreseeable future.
It is recommended that the appraisal of the route be reviewed to confirm
that its conclusions are robust, but subject to that, it is recommended that
no further tram-train development work be carried out for the Mid-
Cheshire line south of Altrincham. Heavy rail based options may need to
be investigated to make better use of the Mid-Cheshire line.

http://www.transportforgreatermanchestercommittee.gov.uk/tfgmc/download/downloads/id/4702/item_08_tram-train_strategy

Some of those binliner routes are awfully convoluted as it is - for instance the Bredburys depot (the only rail attached facility I could find on Google Earth, appears to have lots of open topped containers so I think its the right one) appears to require a route via Hyde Stalybridge and Stockport. Which involves crossing the WCML on the flat - which can't be good for paths.
The northenden facility appears to be more reasonable as it corrects directly to the Stockport-Altrincham section of the route - however it would be possible to convert the branch leading into Stockport station into a Metrolink routing and retain a rail connection via Hazel Grove - which would lead to the freight requiring reversals to get to runcorn but nothing much more tortuous than the Bredburys one.

The binliner routes are not particularly convoluted - none of them involve a reversal. They only use short sections of the WCML, between Hartford Jn and Weaver Jn and (for the Bredbury and Brindle Heath trains) between Heaton Norris Jn and Edgeley No.2 Jn. I have often observed these trains passing through Stockport. The signallers usually manage to find them a slot that causes minimal delay to passenger services. HSTEd's proposed alternative route for the Northenden train would involve three reversals, at Northenden, Hazel Grove and Crewe, and occupy the WCML all the way from Heaton Norris Jn to Crewe and from Crewe to Weaver Jn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it perhaps make sense just to deal with Ashley and Mobberley either with a connecting bus service, or a Pacer running a service back and forth about once every 2 hours between Chester and Altrincham (with times arranged based on current peaks for that specific journey), with the main service going the other way?

The vast majority are almost certainly going to Manchester.

Neil

Are you assuming this or have you observed it? The peak morning services southbound are dominated by flows from Stockport and from Altrincham.

I frequently travel on this line at various times of day. Northbound, a substantial proportion of the passengers get off at Stockport. Many of these change to southbound WCML or eastbound Hope Valley services. Admittedly some people change to the Metrolink at Altrincham for Manchester, but substantial numbers board at Altrincham and Navigation Road, so loadings between Nav. Rd. and Stockport are typically similar to those between Hale and Altrincham. Similar in the opposite direction.

Schoolkid flows extend west to Greenbank and north to Levenshulme, but I think they are densest between Hale and Knutsford (in both directions both morning and afternoon).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed I wasn't suggesting the current Mobberley station site but somewhere to the north east which would be even more of an empty field.

I have a horrible feeling that this area to the north east of the Mobberley station site is the famous Lindow Moss area when Lindow Man was found. If that is the case, there will be numerous bodies both national and local that will rise up in anger. If you see what the existing road connections are to that area, you will see what exactly exists as such. Proposals to start road widening in the area of Lindow Moss will have the Countryside Alliance up in arms.

 

[Altnabreac]

I have a horrible feeling that this area to the north east of the Mobberley station site is the famous Lindow Moss area when Lindow Man was found. If that is the case, there will be numerous bodies both national and local that will rise up in anger. If you see what the existing road connections are to that area, you will see what exactly exists as such. Proposals to start road widening in the area of Lindow Moss will have the Countryside Alliance up in arms.

The main designated site to avoid in the area between Mobberley and the airport seems to be Cotterill Clough SSSI.

There is also a small amount of Priority Grassland Habitat near Yarwood House, an Ancient Replanted Woodland near Higherhouse Farm and a couple of listed buildings.

Overall though it doesn't look an impossible site to design a route through with some careful alignment choice.

 

[snowball]

I have a horrible feeling that this area to the north east of the Mobberley station site is the famous Lindow Moss area when Lindow Man was found.

I think Lindow Moss is further east, on the edge of Wilmslow. That's where it's shown on the OS map.

 

[pemma]

Schoolkid flows extend west to Greenbank and north to Levenshulme, but I think they are densest between Hale and Knutsford (in both directions both morning and afternoon).

Cheshire East council withdrew funding for 2 x buses between Knutsford and St Nicholas High School (near Greenbank station) a few years back. GHA Coaches have attempted to run a commercial service using one bus but a large number of pupils switched to rail because using scholar season tickets it's cheaper. The switch to rail resulted in the bus being routed via Kingsmead to fill up the empty seats on it.

 

[HSTEd]

The binliner routes are not particularly convoluted - none of them involve a reversal. They only use short sections of the WCML, between Hartford Jn and Weaver Jn and (for the Bredbury and Brindle Heath trains) between Heaton Norris Jn and Edgeley No.2 Jn. I have often observed these trains passing through Stockport. The signallers usually manage to find them a slot that causes minimal delay to passenger services. HSTEd's proposed alternative route for the Northenden train would involve three reversals, at Northenden, Hazel Grove and Crewe, and occupy the WCML all the way from Heaton Norris Jn to Crewe and from Crewe to Weaver Jn.

It wouldn't really be a reversal from Northenden to Hazel Grove - you would likely make a propelling move as you would be the only thing using the track.
Also I don't think you would have to reverse at Crewe as well (how would you reverse at Hazel Grove and Crewe? The former would surely leave you facing the wrong direction?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really see Mobberley and Ashley being an issue. The business case for closing the line between Knutsford and Hale would be very poor even if the Airport line was built.

Logic might be to deliver a 2tph service by operating one Chester-Altrincham service (change there for Stockport and Manchester if Metrolink takes over Stockport-Altrincham), and one Chester-Manchester via the Airport service.

Neil