the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[transmanche]

Perhaps just an easy way identify the key routes would be a start. It would be somewhat less of a problem for passenger and TOC to end up on a faster train that skipped a stop on the same line, than one that ventured over and up another line requiring an adventurous ride back to square one to get onto the right train.

The route number system used by Thames Trains was a good example.

The first digit showed the destination; e.g. 8=Slough, 5=Reading, 3=Oxford. And the second digit showed the calling pattern; e.g. 7= all stations, 6= all stations except Acton Main Line and so on.

So an 86 was Paddington-Slough calling at all station except Acton Main Line (and reverse). Regular services were 55 (Paddington-Reading, skip-stop to Slough then all stations) and 33 (Paddington-Oxford semi-fast).

 

[The Box Photter]

Let's have a look shall we..



It's funny (not directly aimed at you), as staff sometimes I feel it's a "them and us" attitude from enthusiasts (some staff do the same granted), and when we post something with fact, knowledge (often insider) and experience we get shot down for all sorts. After I joined the railway, i learnt more about its operation that I thought. After all, we could all leave if you wish




See above, it isn't always what it seems. Whilst I completely don't agree with you, the railway can quite easily make a mountain out of a molehill, sometimes by the rules and procedures laid out. As a signaller, I once requested if we could get a limit of shunt board moved backwards about 2 carriage lengths which would help ALOT with reversing and turn back moves. Good idea everyone thought, management looked into it. The sum that came back was eye watering, as it (obviously) isnt a case of picking it up, and moving it and being done with it!





Being completely honest, that is a massive exaggeration (I would say it's 1 who doesn't care to 10 that do!!) I am yet to find someone like that. There are plenty of people that get wound up and annoyed with general public stupidity. But 99% of people I have encountered do it for the love of the job, and when the going gets tough they knuckle down, get the job done quickly and reduce delays where possible. A lot of people take pride in what they do



Almost resisted to not feed the troll, but I couldn't resist. I could train you, or anyone to work my panel in about 45-60 mins, and you could near enough run it alone. Same with a driver, they could teach you how to go forwards and stop in no time, and dispatchers the same. What is difficult though, is when it all goes wrong. Failures/delays/incidents, and that's something you couldn't deal with. You or I could go to my nearest platform now and dispatch trains, but if someone asked me a question or something went wrong I would be screwed.







See point 2.





Completely agree, with the satisfaction results for the South East at a low something does need to be done. I do feel for passengers when I'm at work and trains are at a stand, even more so when it's half 5 and all you want to do is get home (end of the day, we have all been there!!) whilst I don't want to get into particulars, some things do need to be sorted. That requires change, look at London Bridge for example. But that change, can and does result in delays elsewhere. It's a never ending circle!

Honestly, I'm not trolling, and as the satisfaction survey shows, I'm not alone in my criticism of the railways in the South East.

I'm not a railway expert (as 377/5 will attest). I'm a customer, passenger, live freight if you will who is really pro-rail at heart.

 

[Abpj17]

Yet they manage just fine with route numbers on buses and trams...

lol, no, they don't - if you travel on London buses in the summer, it's common for tourists to be standing on the wrong side of the road for buses and/or to have to ask the driver questions about the route

Totally agree with need for information screen changes. The scrolling list of stations is too long/slow and showing only 3 or 4 trains is nothing like enough (again, Leagrave is one of the stations subject to some very erratic calling patterns, especially in the peak) with the variety of services on Thameslink.

 

[mrmatt]

The route number system used by Thames Trains was a good example.

The first digit showed the destination; e.g. 8=Slough, 5=Reading, 3=Oxford. And the second digit showed the calling pattern; e.g. 7= all stations, 6= all stations except Acton Main Line and so on.

So an 86 was Paddington-Slough calling at all station except Acton Main Line (and reverse). Regular services were 55 (Paddington-Reading, skip-stop to Slough then all stations) and 33 (Paddington-Oxford semi-fast).

During disruption where they either skip stops or add stops etc did they just drop the route numbers or just announce the changes. I think route numbers make a lot of sense but in times of disruption that is when they are surely most likely to be incorrect?

 

[transmanche]

lol, no, they don't - if you travel on London buses in the summer, it's common for tourists to be standing on the wrong side of the road for buses and/or to have to ask the driver questions about the route

Well, no system is going to be completely idiot-proof - but the level of info supplied by TfL at bus stops is second-to-none.

The scrolling list of stations is too long/slow and showing only 3 or 4 trains is nothing like enough (again, Leagrave is one of the stations subject to some very erratic calling patterns, especially in the peak) with the variety of services on Thameslink.

Isn't the current variety of peak time calling patterns just a method of demand management? Something that might not be needed when the 700s are in service, so a standard calling pattern can be introduced.

 

[21C101]

Isn't the current variety of peak time calling patterns just a method of demand management? Something that might not be needed when the 700s are in service, so a standard calling pattern can be introduced.

Leagrave gets a standard service like all the other stations north of Radlett of 4 an hour all stations from Bedford to St Albans then fast to London all day, seven days a week other than late evening (up).

Additional trains in the peaks Call at Bedford, Luton Harpenden & St Albans only before London. Most of them also stop at Flitwick but a couple stop at Leagrave.

(theres also a rather daft one that leaves St Pancras at about 5.20pm that stops at Luton Airport instead of Harpenden but still slows to 40 at Harpenden as it crosses over there to the slow).

I doubt that that peak calling pattern will change as the idea is to give Flitwick and Bedford fast trains and relieve the other ones (they might move the remaining Leagrave stops to Flitwick as has already been done with most of the fasts). Although the new trains are all 12 car some of the existing trains are 12 car 377s and full, and the 700s will only have approx as many seats as an 8 car 319/377. Any slowing down of these "fast" services would also result in extreme overcrowding of EMT trains to from Bedford in the peaks.

 

[Abpj17]

Leagrave gets a standard service like all the other stations north of Radlett of 4 an hour all stations from Bedford to St Albans then fast to London all day, seven days a week other than late evening (up).

Additional trains in the peaks Call at Bedford, Luton Harpenden & St Albans only before London. Most of them also stop at Flitwick but a couple stop at Leagrave.

(theres also a rather daft one that leaves St Pancras at about 5.20pm that stops at Luton Airport instead of Harpenden but still slows to 40 at Harpenden as it crosses over there to the slow).

I doubt that that peak calling pattern will change as the idea is to give Flitwick and Bedford fast trains and relieve the other ones (they might move the remaining Leagrave stops to Flitwick as has already been done with most of the fasts). Although the new trains are all 12 car some of the existing trains are 12 car 377s and full, and since the 700s will only have approx as many seats as an 8 car 319/377. Any slowing down of these "fast" services would also result in extreme overcrowding of EMT trains to from Bedford in the peaks.

Yup - you need your wits about you in the peak to get on a train that will actually call at Leagrave. If the service is running smoothly it's not too bad and they are reasonably space. But when there are cancellations, delays, and trains all out of order depending on their origin it's a bit of a nightmare. (Whereas e.g. Luton or St Albans just need to pick fast from slow)

 

[FlippyFF]

Thirteeen minutes to do Blackfriars to Farringdon (16:51 - 17:04) this afternoon, inclusive of a seven minute planned pause at Blackfriars (16:51 - 16:58) and no DC/AC changeover at City Thameslink. Can someone explain why the timetable was arranged such please?

 

[Abpj17]

Thirteeen minutes to do Blackfriars to Farringdon (16:51 - 17:04) this afternoon, inclusive of a seven minute planned pause at Blackfriars (16:51 - 16:58) and no DC/AC changeover at City Thameslink. Can someone explain why the timetable was arranged such please?

I've noted trains arriving early at Blackfriars recently - I assumed it's a timetable quirk because trains aren't going via London Bridge and will sort itself out at the next timetable change.

 

[21C101]

Thirteeen minutes to do Blackfriars to Farringdon (16:51 - 17:04) this afternoon, inclusive of a seven minute planned pause at Blackfriars (16:51 - 16:58) and no DC/AC changeover at City Thameslink. Can someone explain why the timetable was arranged such please?

Thats quite an achievement given that there was a full possession of the line yesterday! Ddi you mean Friday?

The 7 mins at blackfriars is because you turned up early. There is a lot of recovery time because of all the flat junctions at Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace etc which along with out of course stoppers often cause delays.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thats quite an achievement given that there was a full possession of the line yesterday! Ddi you mean Friday?

The 7 mins at blackfriars is because you turned up early. There is a lot of recovery time because of all the flat junctions at Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace etc which along with out of course stoppers often cause delays.

The recovery time is a bit more simple than that.

It's an extra 7-8 mins between Blackfriars and East Croydon via Herne Hill than via London Bridge.

There is a service every 15 mins.

Therefore, to avoid shifting either the whole MML timetable, or the whole Brighton Main Line timetable, by 7-8 minutes, each train simply drops into the next path. This needs an extra 7-8 minutes to be added to the path (to make the 15). This comes in the form of longer dwells or pathing time.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Yet they manage just fine with route numbers on buses and trams...

And route numbers and destinations are about as much use as chocolate teapot unless you happen to know the route number you want, the route it takes and where the destination is.

Take for example my local station it is served by 2 bus routes one goes anti clockwise to the town centre, one clockwise and when in the town centre they sit their for 20 minutes so its not a full cirle. They both say Crowborough on them, one is the 228 and the other the 229. I need to get off half round the anti-clockwise one. I have no idea which one goes which way round and only know by asking the driver. Also being in the sticks I have no idea whether the bus has been, gone, late, cancelled etc.

Its not much better in London. The signs will say Bus xxx Acton - Where on earth is Acton? What route does it take to get to Acton? Does it go where I want to go? How do I know when I have arrived at my destination if it is not the terminus?

Buses are fine if you are a regular traveller and know where you want to go, otherwise they are not easy. When travelling for work by public transport I often get a taxi from the station to my destination and the bus back, as its easier to work out where you need to go to get back. However if you have to change buses it is particularly difficult to know where to change, which side of the road to be on etc.

Its the same with trains. At any London terminus if you are on an arrive and go ticket finding your train can be a nightmare unless you know where it terminates, and with many stations that doesnt work as they are served by trains that terminate at different stations.

The answer is of course that there is no easy solution, other than smartphones and a simple travel app if there was one!

 

[DelayRepay]

Thameslink have announced a small change to how they calculate Delay Repay compensation. As far as I can see this will only benefit annual season ticket holders.

The BBC news report is claiming this is a victory for commuters who set up a petition - in fact it is not a victory because the petition was calling for compensation to be available for delays of over 15 minutes instead of the current 30 minute threshold. What has actually changed is the way weekends are dealt with when calculating the cost of an individual journey on an annual season ticket. FCC used to calculate compensation based on 520 journeys a year but GoVia decided to use 546 journeys a year. This has now changed back to 520 which will mean an increase of around 5% (I calculate that for a St Albans ticket holder claiming for a 30 minute delay this increase is worth about 35p).

I suppose this is good news for those people who will benefit but it is disappointing that local MPs are claiming this is a huge improvement, when in fact it is only restoring the terms that were in place when many commuters purchased their tickets under FCC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its not much better in London. The signs will say Bus xxx Acton - Where on earth is Acton? What route does it take to get to Acton? Does it go where I want to go? How do I know when I have arrived at my destination if it is not the terminus?

We're going off topic here but it is better in London due to the clear maps on the bus stops. And the on board announcements of each stop.

In fact maybe this is not off topic as I think this is the answer to to the the Thameslink problem. A clear map/diagram combined with route numbers and clear signs/announcements would help solve the problem of people getting on the wrong train.

However - I think some of those who get on the wrong train are just those who live in a world of their own. I think some people would get on the wrong train even if Thameslink employed an army of Town Criers to stand in each doorway shouting out the stops!

 

[anme]

If the trains were colour-coded in an obvious way (perhaps using different coloured doors) and prominent information on the platform showing which colour door to look for, the risk of mistakes could be reduced. It also has the benefit of being very low tech and reliable, so long as the fleet is deployed correctly.

Is this really a problem? In several decades of regular rail travel, including a couple of daily commuting, I got on the wrong train once. On that occasion, I got a northbound Bakerloo line train instead of a southbound.

Although thinking about it, maybe you're right. They could paint the trains different colours, e.g. red for northbound and blue for southbound. That should solve the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notably LUL train interiors were colour coded by line, but they seem to be moving away from that and going for a standard blue. Perhaps it was too subtle to be useful.

 

[DelayRepay]

Notably LUL train interiors were colour coded by line, but they seem to be moving away from that and going for a standard blue. Perhaps it was too subtle to be useful.

The problem with physically colouring the stock is, what happens if they have to use stock on a different route e.g. due to disruption or a shortage of units? It would cause untold confusion if an all stations train (e.g. painted red) changed to a fast train at St Pancras. Much easier to use electronic displays I think.

Anyway, it will take a lot to persuade Thameslink passengers to look at the colour/livery of the stock since pretty much every train seems to have its own unique livery at the moment!

 

[21C101]

Is this really a problem? In several decades of regular rail travel, including a couple of daily commuting, I got on the wrong train once. On that occasion, I got a northbound Bakerloo line train instead of a southbound.

Although thinking about it, maybe you're right. They could paint the trains different colours, e.g. red for northbound and blue for southbound. That should solve the problem.

It is a real problem if you want to go to Bedford in the evening peaks, when there are about 5 different stopping patterns with closely spaced trains and all the trains just have "Bedford" on the front, with the CIS struggling to cope with out of course working.

If I had a pound for every suitcase laden person who alighted at Luton (or even Flitwick) asking how to get back to Luton Airport Parkway (after our train salied through it at 90) and now risked missing their plane, I would be rich by now.

 

[DelayRepay]

Removed...

 

[FlippyFF]

Thats quite an achievement given that there was a full possession of the line yesterday! Ddi you mean Friday?

There was a full possession of the line from Brighton to Bedford? Or was there a possession from Farringdon to West Hampstead......? So, no, I did mean Saturday.

The 7 mins at blackfriars is because you turned up early. There is a lot of recovery time because of all the flat junctions at Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace etc which along with out of course stoppers often cause delays.

I think 'turned up early' is the wrong choice of words in this scenario, I don't think 'arrived on time' is suitable either given the potential seven minute arrival window - maybe "failed to be late"? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L02536/2015/01/31/advanced. From a semi-enthusiast point of view I understand the reasoning behind it but from a passenger point of view it's just plain annoying.

I can understand the recovery time in normal service with trains coming from multiple origins but surely with yesterdays engineering timetable all the Brighton - Farringdon trains would have been routed the same way and incur the same (knock-on) delays (I know I probably haven't worded this well)

There was an evening M-F peak train from Blackfriars to St Pancras that used to do the same although I think it's been amended in the new timetable. It used to be scheduled to arrive at BFR at 19:12 and depart at 19:18 which caused problems for the often late 19:10 departure which had come via London Bridge. This was always a cause of frustration when I was trying to reach St Pancras to get my train home.

 

[Hadders]

It is unfortunate that the Thameslink closure is the same weekend as the Jubilee Line closure.

The Jubilee line is closed between Finchley Road and Waterloo which shouldn't impact journeys between St Pancras and West Hampstead.

Best way from Kings Cross St Pancras to West Hampstead is to take the Metropolitan Line to Finchley Road then Jubilee Line the one stop to West Hampstead.

 

[Abpj17]

anme - the Thameslink calling patterns are complicated. I’ve been a commuter for twelve years on the route and it’s still possible for me to get on the wrong train. Particularly in the peak, there are pairs of trains around 4 mins apart that both go to Bedford - one calls at my stop, one doesn’t. When trains are a little out of sequence it’s impossible to tell which is the next arriving at the platform - they can be switching positions on the information screens regularly. If lucky, the overhead will say number of carriages, and if they don’t have the same number of carriages you can work it out. But that’s not always the case. (as 21C101 says too).

Being Thameslink, it's not unusual for trains to be delayed/out of sequence as there are multiple start points that converge in London. E.g. the Brighton trains have a problem, but the Sutton ones are fine. It's less common than it was, but changes to calling patterns aren't a complete rarity still further confusing the situation e.g. you don't get on a train, but then it's decided it will call where you wanted anyway...or you do get on a train, and then it's decided it's not going to call where you want...

The colour-coding doesn’t help with Thameslink as the stock is switched around the different routes. The maps once you get on the train are pretty good - it’s common for tourists to be peering at them. And it’s common for people to miss their stop (overshoot / train that doesn’t call at). I can’t recall seeing the colour coded maps at the station… (and they don’t help with the smaller variations in stopping patterns).

It's quite different to most other major commuting lines in the SE because they terminate/start in London.

 

[DelayRepay]

The Jubilee line is closed between Finchley Road and Waterloo which shouldn't impact journeys between St Pancras and West Hampstead.

Best way from Kings Cross St Pancras to West Hampstead is to take the Metropolitan Line to Finchley Road then Jubilee Line the one stop to West Hampstead.

Yes, I mis-understood so I removed the comment.

 

[anme]

anme - the Thameslink calling patterns are complicated.

Not everyone understood that my post was intended to be satirical. There is a joke hidden in there somewhere.

 

[gottago]

One thing that I find particularly annoying with Thameslink (and FCC before it) is that it's rare to get annoucements on board older trains where there's no dot matrix. Couple that with some very sparse and dimly lit signs on the platform it can often be difficult to tell which station you've arrived at when it's dark.

 

[westcoaster]

One thing that I find particularly annoying with Thameslink (and FCC before it) is that it's rare to get annoucements on board older trains where there's no dot matrix. Couple that with some very sparse and dimly lit signs on the platform it can often be difficult to tell which station you've arrived at when it's dark.

This is in the process of being sorted 319's are now being retro fitted with dot matrix and auto announcements, will be a while till its up and running.

 

[jon0844]

One thing that I find particularly annoying with Thameslink (and FCC before it) is that it's rare to get annoucements on board older trains where there's no dot matrix. Couple that with some very sparse and dimly lit signs on the platform it can often be difficult to tell which station you've arrived at when it's dark.

Same problem on GN with the 313s. And over the years, it was a case of FCC saying they wanted drivers to announce stations, and drivers (at least as mentioned on here) saying it wasn't part of their job and low down on the list of priorities with all the other more important tasks.

313s haven't and presumably never will get displays or auto announcers. Drivers nearly always do the initial safety briefing before departure and announce the approach to Finsbury Park, but otherwise it's rare to hear stations announced manually. When they are, I usually recognise the voices.

It's in the winter that it's worst, as it can be dark and hard to see what station you're at when the train is actually very busy - although it usually only requires asking someone. I've been asked many times, so it's worth keeping track of where you are even if you're on the train until almost the end.

 

[Abpj17]

On some of the TL stock, the quality of the announcements is pretty poor anyway so it's very difficult to hear. At least Luton Airport Parkway usually gets announced and a reminder about luggage.

Other passengers will often know where the train is, and apps on phones can be increasingly helpful to indicate where the train is.

 

[DelayRepay]

It's in the winter that it's worst, as it can be dark and hard to see what station you're at when the train is actually very busy - although it usually only requires asking someone. I've been asked many times, so it's worth keeping track of where you are even if you're on the train until almost the end.

On TL this can be a problem; most of the drivers announce the calling pattern at St Pancras (as do the platform staff - sometimes at the same time so you cannot hear the driver's announcement!). The drivers are pretty good at announcing if it's a fast service to St Albans or an all stations. They don't normally announce the intermediate stations on arrival. Regular passengers can tell where they are but for infrequent passengers it can be difficult, even counting the stops isn't reliable due to some trains having odd calling patterns. It is not unknown to see passengers get off at St Albans, look confused then go to Platform 1 to get a train back towards London. But the vast majority cope fine.

Hopefully this will resolve its self as the remaining 319s are fitted with display screens though.

 

[A-driver]

Announcements on 313s are still an issue according to Twitter. Issue is from drivers that most of the 313 driver diagrams are very intense and quite simply we can't announce the approach to every station when stopping at 100+ in a day. If nothing else the thought of drivers regularly using the PA whilst braking for stations brings driver managers, ops standards managers and ORR inspectors out in a cold sweat! That kind of 'distraction' is exactly what leads to overruns, stop shorts and wrong side releases. In fact one of our drivers had a ride out with someone from the ORR who specifically told him to stop using the PA on the move.

But all that aside, as I say being asked to announce every station we stop at on some of the more intensive jobs is unrealistic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And route numbers and destinations are about as much use as chocolate teapot unless you happen to know the route number you want, the route it takes and where the destination is.

Most people using the Thameslink Core will know where they are wanting to go. The problem is that they won't know if the train is going to where they wanted to go. The station monitors and the small destination screens on the side of the 700s are not going to be sufficient.

It's OK at the moment because most commuters are going to St Albans, Luton or Bedford and all the trains go at least St Albans. But when the trains will go to more varied destinations it's going to be a nightmare.

As for announcements on the 313s and 319s, the calling pattern and main stations tend to be announced by the driver. The problem is is that the PA equipment is so old and knackered that you can't hear them unless the train is stopped dead. I think calling pattern is more than sufficient and demanding the driver do more than that is unrealistic.