the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[Mutant Lemming]

I thought there was a thread for the Thameslink woes but can't find it so apologies if it is on here somewhere.

I still use the service when not practical to travel by car but have been struck by the number of cancellations and late running services encountered when using the service occasionally. The missus has to commute with them and never thought things could be worse than FCC.

Anyhow to the latest gripe -

We arrived at Luton Airport and proceeded to Luton Airport Parkway to catch a train home only to find none on the departure boards at the entrance to the station and none to our destination on the 'next fast train' (the one and only) board listing stations with next trains.
For some reason the Southbound stoppers are no longer listed on the train departure boards at Luton Airport Parkway. To those unfamiliar with the service (like many arriving from foreign shores by plane for instance) it would appear there are no direct trains to Radlett, Elstree, Mill Hill Broadway, Cricklewood etc from Luton Airport Parkway. Those of us who are familiar with the service may think the absence of trains is down to another spate of cancellations. Only on passing through the ticket gates and finding staff (or checking platform indicator boards) would one know that there is a Southbound stopping service operating.
Can this operator do anything right ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This might just serve to highlight how little changes when a franchise changes hands, because most of the staff just TUPE over. If a franchise is rotten before the change, unless the problem is in the very senior management who do change, it will remain rotten after it.

Neil

 

[Mutant Lemming]

This might just serve to highlight how little changes when a franchise changes hands, because most of the staff just TUPE over. If a franchise is rotten before the change, unless the problem is in the very senior management who do change, it will remain rotten after it.

Neil

Much as I would like to berate FCC on this at least their displays did list ALL services. The lack of information (also noticeable in other areas) is a new phenomenon courtesy of the new operator.

 

[ComUtoR]

Add to the fact that the railway moves at a glacial pace. Change takes time, money, and more importantly... effort.

 

[SPADTrap]

Add to the fact that the railway moves at a glacial pace. Change takes time, money, and more importantly... effort.

And someone to make the decision in the first place! It's no secret is it that on the railways decision making = accountability and everyone is afraid of it!

Or am I too cynical already?

 

[ComUtoR]

Or am I too cynical already?

Depends on how long you have been driving. Is it a harsh realism or just mis-placed cynicism ? One of the major debate on my locals TOC is that new entrants see the railway lifers are never seeing the "real world" and various issues are the unions and staff acting like petulant children. Of course the lifers see the new entrants are needing to adjust to the railway and have an attitude of "it's the railway" and issues are all very serious and have dramatic consequences for all and the boil in the bags don't see the bigger picture and need "educating"

The "railway" is undergoing a culture change as the old guard are making way. Employment has changed and as more people come from "the outside" the railways is having to adjust. Glacial change is frankly shocking but with sort term franchising and ........ privatization. You can clearly see why its never going to happen anytime soon™

I will be interested to see what happens with GTR under a management contract franchise. Whilst it is still profit driven I have already seen differences from the previous franchise.

Its difficult to make sweeping generalizations against a TOC because the realist in me knows 100% that it is the people in place who should take the blame. As a commuter you only ever see the TOC and blame "Thameslink" for everything. Not the bloke who couldn't be arsed today or even the staff who work tirelessly but are lumbered with problems that are just out of their control.

Ask me again in another [x] years and I may think differently.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's the same staff driving the same trains through the same stations. There wasn't going to ever be much in the way of change.

In fairness to Thameslink, one thing that I HAVE noticed is that the 319s are an awful lot cleaner than they used to be. So some things are different.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

None of this addresses the latest gripe of not advertising the services you operate to the people who want to use them. FCC displayed ALL services at Luton Airport Parkway while 'Thameslink' don't. That is a difference and it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind it. With a half hour headway for passengers using the stopping services after 8pm surely there is a greater need to advertise those services which are less frequent than just the next fastest train in to London.

 

[Hadders]

Have new departure screens been installed by any chance?

At Stevenage new departure screens were installed in the last few weeks of FCC. The problem is instead of the screens listing departures in time order they use platform order.

Most of the trains use platforms 1 and 4 with a few using 2 and 3. So you have the ridiculous situation where the xx06 from platform 1 is advertised on the first screen with the second screen showing the next platform 2 departure over an hour away. The problem is there is an xx10 departure from platform 1 but this isn't shown until the xx06 has departed!

I've not seen this type of layout anywhere else. Just imaging the departure screens at Kings Cross in platform order rather than time order - it wouldn't happen yet that is what we now have at Stevenage.

I've queried this with GTR but they don't want to know... Perhaps someone from GTR will read this and do something!

 

[causton]

Have new departure screens been installed by any chance?

At Stevenage new departure screens were installed in the last few weeks of FCC. The problem is instead of the screens listing departures in time order they use platform order.

I have seen this in other places, but more sensibly on approach to each platform. If this is the main display then that is not good! Even Hatfield, with its' old 4 train display at least shows each one in chronological order. (Imagine if one screen permanently displayed the one or two trains a day using Platform 2 at Hatfield!)

There should at least be a second board for all departures!

 

[jon0844]

Much as I would like to berate FCC on this at least their displays did list ALL services. The lack of information (also noticeable in other areas) is a new phenomenon courtesy of the new operator.

Now you get the London transport information tagged on, it can take a minute or more to be able to see where a train will call (on the displays with scrolling text) even when it is displayed. Whoever thought of that deserves a medal!

It's particularly annoying when you get it on every single service, even those going away from London. Whatever happened to putting that information on the 'special notices' part of the displays? I mean, if there was major disruption in London you might actually want to see this immediately and defer travel, rather than actually get the screen at the wrong point where it's showing the stopping pattern, carriage length, first class location before the TfL detail.

 

[Hadders]

This is the newly installed main departure board just inside the gateline in what passes for the concourse.

There is a different style screen underneath that shows 'next departures to' but it's so small you can't see it until you pass through the gateline.

The whole thing really isn't good enough. The new screens are hung from a monstrous frame that takes up a fair chunk of the already congested space just inside the gateline. Why they couldn't be hung on the wall like the previous ones (and the ones before those) I really don't know.

In fact there's so little space in this area the barriers are often left open during the evening rush to relieve congestion. Tonight they were open even though staff were present!

 

[causton]

In fact there's so little space in this area the barriers are often left open during the evening rush to relieve congestion. Tonight they were open even though staff were present!

Just like at Finsbury Park then! The new platforms don't have barriers and the old ones that do, they always open them when a train comes in as there are too many passengers and too little gates! Brilliant isn't it!

 

[jon0844]

Yup, but it's a requirement for safety reasons - just as the gates will be opened at WGC during busy times. Sort of makes a mockery of protecting revenue if you can't use them at the busy times.

Obviously the risk of having people potentially fall off the platform edges outweighs everything else, but it's still stupid!

It's also odd that there are no gates on two of the islands at Finsbury Park, especially the 'new' platforms.

 

[Hadders]

At Stevenage I've noticed the gates are open more often than not when passing through, especially in the evenings.

Some of the problem I believe is that the station is getting close to its capacity at certain times. The stairs are relatively narrow and a train load of commuters coming off an early evening train can cause a large amount of congestion which takes several minutes to clear.

That said I do think FCC were more pro-active at keeping the barriers operating than GTR appear to be.

As for Finsbury Park, it's an intersting one but there aren't even any barriers on the Underground. I know that's not unique but it must be one of the busiest stations to be without barriers.

 

[asylumxl]

I had a thread about Thameslink performance and there was one about an incident at City Thameslink.

As for the changes to the departure boards at LTN, I can somewhat understand why they have done so. Majority of passengers will not want a stopping service, so I imagine this was done to prevent people accidently getting a slower train.

Having said that, a lot of people do travel from Parkway to intermediate stations, something I don't think GTR is aware of.

While people defend Govia, as a commuter I think the evidence quite strongly indicates GTR is in fact worse than First at running Thameslink.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

As for Finsbury Park, it's an intersting one but there aren't even any barriers on the Underground. I know that's not unique but it must be one of the busiest stations to be without barriers.

But surely the biggest 'barrier' on the tube - for those seeking to travel from Finsbury Park without paying - is that it is almost impossible to get off at their (barriered) destination, because a valid ticket, Oyster / Contactless card will be needed to open the closed gates at the other end ?

 

[Abpj17]

Not listed at all? Or were they saying you should take train to St A and change?

What has continued to bug me (GTR/FCC) is the annoying habit of removing trains from the concourse screens (City Thameslink and Blackfriars) 2 or 3 minutes early (when there is plenty of time left to catch the train if you knew about it!). Given the habit of showing a train as on time for the first two minutes of day, this often means you have a good 3 minutes to catch the train - which is easily done at both stations - if only you knew it existed!

 

[NSE]

But surely the biggest 'barrier' on the tube - for those seeking to travel from Finsbury Park without paying - is that it is almost impossible to get off at their (barriered) destination, because a valid ticket, Oyster / Contactless card will be needed to open the closed gates at the other end ?

Actually, you'd be surprised, its quite easy to avoid if you plan your route carefully, particularly if you switch to NR or DLR. It always makes me laugh in a tounge-in-cheek way when you can get the tube to somewhere like Wimbledon, big station, busy etc, but Wimbledon Chase (Next stop down the line) is barrier-less, and the next mainline stop, Raynes Park, is normally left open. I don't know about Haydons Road, but I guess it'd be similar to Wimbledon Chase. And no DLR only stations have ticket gates (do they?), so I'd say its pretty easy.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not aware of any exclusively-DLR station having ticket gates, but unlike the underground, there are periodic ticket/oyster checks carried out on it, and as far as I'm aware the penalty fare on the DLR is far higher than NR to try and discourage such behaviour.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen people on the DLR who are caught without a validated Oyster or ticket. They get off at the next stop and walk off. Staff don't follow them.

So I'd say that DLR is quite an easy system to use without paying if you're confident enough.

After the person walks off, I've not seen any attempt made to make a note of the offender or call anyone.. more a shrug of the shoulders and carrying on to the next person.

The DLR must have quite a lot of fare evasion! But that's now off topic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Removing trains from concourse boards 2-3 minutes early is common, and its to stop people injuring themselves running. I see nothing wrong with it, if you're on the concourse 90 seconds before departure then you've missed the train

 

[tsr]

Removing trains from concourse boards 2-3 minutes early is common, and its to stop people injuring themselves running. I see nothing wrong with it, if you're on the concourse 90 seconds before departure then you've missed the train

Not necessarily. I use several major stations served by Thameslink on a very regular basis, and can make it from concourse to train in less than 90 seconds (probably more like 1 minute) at about 3 or 4 of them, without running. OK, it involves being organised and walking briskly, but there's not much wrong with that!

At stations in the Thameslink core, I would suggest removing trains from the boards a long way from the platforms about 1 minute before the train pulls into the platform (for example, on the concourse at Blackfriars), but no earlier, really. There are stations such as St Pancras where a train displayed on the concourse can be reached by walking down in what is almost a dead straight line (depending on platform) and it doesn't take at all long. For a metro-style service via central London, you would expect a significant number of people to be moving fairly fast and not arriving with 10 minutes to spare, and removing a train from the boards prematurely can lead to too many people just hanging around and always having a significant overlap into those who need to catch the next train. When there is a high variety of destinations from 2018, this could easily stack up.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Removing trains from concourse boards 2-3 minutes early is common, and its to stop people injuring themselves running. I see nothing wrong with it, if you're on the concourse 90 seconds before departure then you've missed the train

Removing them from the concourse boards a few minutes before departure is fine - not putting them on the departure boards at all isn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
..forget to add Saturday's gripe - around mid day half of the stopping services seemed to be cancelled. Am glad I don't use them more than a couple of days a week.

 

[bramling]

I've seen people on the DLR who are caught without a validated Oyster or ticket. They get off at the next stop and walk off. Staff don't follow them.

So I'd say that DLR is quite an easy system to use without paying if you're confident enough.

After the person walks off, I've not seen any attempt made to make a note of the offender or call anyone.. more a shrug of the shoulders and carrying on to the next person.

The DLR must have quite a lot of fare evasion! But that's now off topic.

I can't remember the last time I had a ticket inspected on DLR, although I know they do station blocks from time to time.

Finsbury Park really should be gated, it would keep a lot of trouble out of the system.

 

[The Box Photter]

I can't remember the last time I had a ticket inspected on DLR, although I know they do station blocks from time to time.

Finsbury Park really should be gated, it would keep a lot of trouble out of the system.

South Quay at 09.00 is a favourite at the moment. Just to cause an even bigger crush on the staircase. I foresee a significant risk of injury.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm a long-suffering Thameslink/FCC/Thameslink user.

Based purely on non-scientific but regular observations, FCC was dire with dirty trains and poor timekeeping. Introduction of the 377s brought with it the added bonus of mechanical & electrical unreliability.

Govia Thameslink before it was dire, with dirty trains and poor timekeeping, but at least during the St Pancras blockade, you could normally guarantee a seat at St Pancras in the evenings at regular 15-minute intervals.

Now GTR Thameslink appear to have been able to merge the worst aspects of the previous two incumbents. To get into London on time in the mornings is an unexpected bonus, with arrivals at St Pancras being routinely 5-6 mins late and then have the added delay caused by the crush of passengers exiting and entering the train. A 3-4 minute dwell time at St Pancras is not unusual. In addition the information screens often display the next train before the previous one has closed its doors and departed. Not good for Gatwick passengers who end up on a Sutton Loop train.

Evening northbound trains are almost never on time at Blackfriars and the doomed 1W90 is cancelled or significantly delayed most evenings of late. Mechanical failures are rife, with two recent notable Core blockages as trains have "sat down" at City Thameslink. There is no resilience in the timetable to allow for such failures with seriously delayed trains being allowed to continue their journeys north and south rather than using the bay platforms at Blackfriars and St Pancras' bi-directional signalling to turn severly delayed trains, thus getting the service back to normal more quickly.

I can't wait for the "benefits" of Bombardier's quality workmanship to be felt in the new 387s.

At least FCC had a decent website giving real-time information about delays. GTR Thameslink seems to have used a ZX Spectrum as the platform for its information-free offering, which gives nothing more than a rehash of the National Rail service information.

Suffice to say, if I could drive to and from work, I would.

 

[Abpj17]

Removing trains from concourse boards 2-3 minutes early is common, and its to stop people injuring themselves running. I see nothing wrong with it, if you're on the concourse 90 seconds before departure then you've missed the train

As I said, when trains are regularly on time + 90 - 120 seconds; rather than bang on time, you can have close to 5 minutes which for the core stations is plenty of time. Plus the likelihood of longer than usual loading time due to volume of passengers/train reboot due to power supply switch/random other glitches like the doors particularly at St P giving longer dwell times.

City Thameslink is the most infuriating from concourse to the train is mere seconds because of how the station is tucked in and has the longest dwell times due to power switches.

My commuting is erratic time-wise so I don't aim for a specific train, so the leaving time before departure doesn't apply. But it's useful to know whether to e.g. time to pop in shop or if I go to the platform I'll grab a train and not have to wait for the next. The variety in all calling patterns and high level of delays all support not hiding a train that could be easily caught.

 

[21C101]

South Quay at 09.00 is a favourite at the moment. Just to cause an even bigger crush on the staircase. I foresee a significant risk of injury.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm a long-suffering Thameslink/FCC/Thameslink user.

Based purely on non-scientific but regular observations, FCC was dire with dirty trains and poor timekeeping. Introduction of the 377s brought with it the added bonus of mechanical & electrical unreliability.

Govia Thameslink before it was dire, with dirty trains and poor timekeeping, but at least during the St Pancras blockade, you could normally guarantee a seat at St Pancras in the evenings at regular 15-minute intervals.

Now GTR Thameslink appear to have been able to merge the worst aspects of the previous two incumbents. To get into London on time in the mornings is an unexpected bonus, with arrivals at St Pancras being routinely 5-6 mins late and then have the added delay caused by the crush of passengers exiting and entering the train. A 3-4 minute dwell time at St Pancras is not unusual. In addition the information screens often display the next train before the previous one has closed its doors and departed. Not good for Gatwick passengers who end up on a Sutton Loop train.

Evening northbound trains are almost never on time at Blackfriars and the doomed 1W90 is cancelled or significantly delayed most evenings of late. Mechanical failures are rife, with two recent notable Core blockages as trains have "sat down" at City Thameslink. There is no resilience in the timetable to allow for such failures with seriously delayed trains being allowed to continue their journeys north and south rather than using the bay platforms at Blackfriars and St Pancras' bi-directional signalling to turn severly delayed trains, thus getting the service back to normal more quickly.

I can't wait for the "benefits" of Bombardier's quality workmanship to be felt in the new 387s.

At least FCC had a decent website giving real-time information about delays. GTR Thameslink seems to have used a ZX Spectrum as the platform for its information-free offering, which gives nothing more than a rehash of the National Rail service information.

Suffice to say, if I could drive to and from work, I would.

Just wait till they have to fit another 8 an hour coming off the East Coast Main line in.......

 

[ComUtoR]

City Thameslink is the most infuriating from concourse to the train is mere seconds because of how the station is tucked in and has the longest dwell times due to power switches.

Farringdon is longer. The current changeover used to be at Farringdon and still has the timings for it. I'm always longer at Farringdon and at City I'm in and out.

Not timed it myself but the switchover in a 319 is negligible.

 

[jon0844]

It's funny how modern technology usually makes everything so much faster, but 377s take ages to change over and reboot certain systems. It's quite amazing it takes so long. I have computers with solid state drives that can boot in 7 seconds. And a lot more crap gets loaded on my computer than I'd imagine in a train with a super optimised and stripped down to basics setup.

I wonder how long the 700s will take to swap?