the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[DaveNewcastle]

This made me smile:

I don't think that post Thameslink Disrupted EC trains can be given priority. I think EC customers will have to see a lot of their trains terminating at London Stevenage or London Peterborough.

There's a disapointing fragility in any network which seeks to accommodate both local and long-distance services without conflict, and how those conflicts are mitigated.

 

[FlippyFF]

Must have been very late - assume you mean 0820!

Nope. 06:20 departure which arrived approx. 06:23 - I'd been on the 05:43 Ashford International to St Pancras and saw via RTT that it was few minutes late which gave me time to catch it.

 

[LBSCR Times]

My only worry is that past experience shows that the Thameslink control have a worrying tendency to panic when things go wrong. I sincerely hope they've learned the lessons from Kentish Town but, judging by recent issues, I don't think they have.

They are under a lot of pressure from NR to get things moving quickly, especially if it is a problem northbound. London Bridge gets blocked out and then South Eastern complain, so services have to be diverted via Tulse Hill. However, then the TL are under further pressure not to have trains trapped outside of stations for more than 90', unlike other TOC's for fear of the ORR taking action.
It might only be a small TOC but with a busy two track railway through the core and one major train crew depot, it isn't an easy service to manage. Don't forget the Control has to work with the resources it is given, any contingenciy resources have to be provided outside this framework.

 

[21C101]

387 - FAIL

16.18 Elephant to Bedford fast has been a 387 the last two days.

Yesterday (as told to me by a pax). Train turned up as 4 car 387 (not 8 car as it should be). Left St Pan a Sardine Can. Got to West Hampstead area and broke down with said sardines stuck standing. Arrival about 40 late.

Today (I was on it), they had found an extra 4 cars so it was the right length. Got to Luton and parked itself on the down fast for 20 minutes or so. Reason, we were eventually told by driver, was that the relief driver wasn't passed to drive a 387. Eventually everyone told to get off and get a slow on platform 3. Slow departed and then got held up for 5 minutes at Leagrave while the "cancelled" 387 (with a handful of pax still on it) overtook us and crossed to slow line and delayed us all further. Lot of not happy pax.

As to the train. Sorry but UGH. Seems "louder" inside than a 377 and very few seats with tables. Plus the seats are no longer the relatively comfortable 377 seats but high back seats like an FGW125 with "cushions" that are so hard its like sitting on a park bench. You apparently can't raise the arm next to the window either on the 2+2 seats.

And why the dividing frosted glass half way along the carriage between standard class and, er standard class, especially as there is no divder door between standard and first in the same carriage. Meanwhile the first class compartment has only 10 seats as the luggage rack is in first class and seats are, as with 377, identical to standard. And the piece de resistance, the frosted powered sliding door immediately next to the cab door continually opened and shut throughout the journey, presumably so that we could see the myriad signs plastered all over the cab door.

On the positive side, the non disabled toilet had the toilet roll higher than six inches above the ground (unlike the 377s) so you have a half chance of toilet paper that hasn't been peed on, and there are buttons to operate the tap so you can wash your hands more easily. Its still sized to fit an underweight garden gnome though.

Why is it that every time I buy a new car, roughly at decadal intervals, it gets more luxurious and comfortable with more features and costs little more than the old one did. Every time I sit on a new train it gets more uncomfortable and cramped.

And lastly. At present the 16,18 elephant and castle (16.22 blackfriars) to Bedford is the fast (St A, HARP, LUT, FLT BED, only) that runs fast line to Bedford. The 16.26 off Blackfriars which crosses over at Radlett/Harpenden and runs all stns north of St Albans is the one that comes from Brighton. Guess what, from Jan the 5th this reverses, so it is the train that runs fast line all the way to Bedford that will import all the Brighton line delays.

 

[The Box Photter]

I was still on 1G91 as it sailed through Leagrave. Sorry. It still wasn't late enough at Flitwick to claim delay repay though.

Wasn't quick enough to get over the bridge at Luton. The train was almost terminated again at Luton, for a spurious "technical fault" but then reinstated.

I agree, the interior layout is bizarre and I'd be very miffed if I'd paid for a 1st class season ticket only to discover that the extra £ was for a tiny antimacassar.

 

[Aictos]

Personally, I'd have preferred to spend money on:
7) Slow lines uplifted to 100 mph where possible to give faster journey times.

Why? Do any of the Inner Suburban services get to that speed before slowing down for the next station? IF they don't then there's little economic sense to raising the line speed of the slow lines to 100mph, far better off raising speed limits from 30mph and 40mph to 60mph+ and up to 80mph at the maximum.

The other options they need to do is to put a crossover at plat 1 northbound to allow trains to use it then crossover to the Down Hertford immediately after, be good to pass trains there and to reinstate/convert the Gordon Hill bays to though loops to present a halfway point on the loop to pass services.

 

[asylumxl]

Why? Do any of the Inner Suburban services get to that speed before slowing down for the next station? IF they don't then there's little economic sense to raising the line speed of the slow lines to 100mph, far better off raising speed limits from 30mph and 40mph to 60mph+ and up to 80mph at the maximum.

I assumed he meant for Peterborough trains and the like, which may use the slow lines but not stop at all stations.

 

[SPADTrap]

387 - FAIL

16.18 Elephant to Bedford fast has been a 387 the last two days.

Yesterday (as told to me by a pax). Train turned up as 4 car 387 (not 8 car as it should be). Left St Pan a Sardine Can. Got to West Hampstead area and broke down with said sardines stuck standing. Arrival about 40 late.

Today (I was on it), they had found an extra 4 cars so it was the right length. Got to Luton and parked itself on the down fast for 20 minutes or so. Reason, we were eventually told by driver, was that the relief driver wasn't passed to drive a 387. Eventually everyone told to get off and get a slow on platform 3. Slow departed and then got held up for 5 minutes at Leagrave while the "cancelled" 387 (with a handful of pax still on it) overtook us and crossed to slow line and delayed us all further. Lot of not happy pax.

As to the train. Sorry but UGH. Seems "louder" inside than a 377 and very few seats with tables. Plus the seats are no longer the relatively comfortable 377 seats but high back seats like an FGW125 with "cushions" that are so hard its like sitting on a park bench. You apparently can't raise the arm next to the window either on the 2+2 seats.

And why the dividing frosted glass half way along the carriage between standard class and, er standard class, especially as there is no divder door between standard and first in the same carriage. Meanwhile the first class compartment has only 10 seats as the luggage rack is in first class and seats are, as with 377, identical to standard. And the piece de resistance, the frosted powered sliding door immediately next to the cab door continually opened and shut throughout the journey, presumably so that we could see the myriad signs plastered all over the cab door.

On the positive side, the non disabled toilet had the toilet roll higher than six inches above the ground (unlike the 377s) so you have a half chance of toilet paper that hasn't been peed on, and there are buttons to operate the tap so you can wash your hands more easily. Its still sized to fit an underweight garden gnome though.

Why is it that every time I buy a new car, roughly at decadal intervals, it gets more luxurious and comfortable with more features and costs little more than the old one did. Every time I sit on a new train it gets more uncomfortable and cramped.

And lastly. At present the 16,18 elephant and castle (16.22 blackfriars) to Bedford is the fast (St A, HARP, LUT, FLT BED, only) that runs fast line to Bedford. The 16.26 off Blackfriars which crosses over at Radlett/Harpenden and runs all stns north of St Albans is the one that comes from Brighton. Guess what, from Jan the 5th this reverses, so it is the train that runs fast line all the way to Bedford that will import all the Brighton line delays.

You're welcome to have your 319s back! Or maybe Northern commuters who will appreciate the new trains would be better off with it than your spoilt behind, swap for a pacer perhaps? Really give you something to whine about

Jokes aside you can't compare buying a car to buying a train! for a start a train has to please ALL the people who use it. Louder inside? Third world problems? :P

 

[AM9]

You're welcome to have your 319s back! Or maybe Northern commuters who will appreciate the new trains would be better off with it than your spoilt behind, swap for a pacer perhaps? Really give you something to whine about

Jokes aside you can't compare buying a car to buying a train! for a start a train has to please ALL the people who use it. Louder inside? Third world problems? :P

I was surprised that there wasn't the perennial whine abouut the windows lining up with the seats.
The seats on the /2s and /5s might be a little softer, but look at the state of them when they begin to wear-in. I find the new seats fine, just like the 377/7s. The glass dividers are to reduce that other whinge, - the shame of travelling in stock without end vestibule access when travelling further than 3 stops on a metro service. 1/3 2/3 doors are the reality for outer suburban trains in the future. At least they tried to mitigate the possibility of a whole 2 degree drop when the doors open.
Roll on the 700s.

 

[DelayRepay]

Can someone explain to me why these 387 trains are being used? I know they're only a stopgap until the 700s arrive, but where did they come from and who was supposed to be using them before they were given to Thameslink?

 

[westcoaster]

Can someone explain to me why these 387 trains are being used? I know they're only a stopgap until the 700s arrive, but where did they come from and who was supposed to be using them before they were given to Thameslink?

They were ordered as a stop gap, so the 319's could be cascaded away on time, as there was the delay in ordering the 700's.

 

[The Box Photter]

The biggest disappointment is that trains that carry large numbers of longer distance passengers are being designed to tube train specifications in order to deal with passenger loadings over such a short part of the route.

It remains galling that a passenger wishing to travel from London to St Albans/Luton/Bedford can be delayed by problems over 50 miles away in third rail land (otherwise known as the 1950s).

Passengers wanting to travel south from London have other alternatives (such as Victoria - Brighton) but erstwhile "BedPan" passengers are screwed.

Its even more of a joke that those "crucial" Core passengers are likely to be travelling on Oyster cards and are thus paying nowhere near as much for their season tickets as me.

I'm just fed up of paying more and more each year only to find my travel requirements steadily sidelined in pursuit of the 24tph Holy Grail.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone been caught up in tonight's rather significant problems during a DC - AC changeover at City TL?

Didn't think so.

 

[AM9]

The biggest disappointment is that trains that carry large numbers of longer distance passengers are being designed to tube train specifications in order to deal with passenger loadings over such a short part of the route.

It remains galling that a passenger wishing to travel from London to St Albans/Luton/Bedford can be delayed by problems over 50 miles away in third rail land (otherwise known as the 1950s).

Passengers wanting to travel south from London have other alternatives (such as Victoria - Brighton) but erstwhile "BedPan" passengers are screwed.

Its even more of a joke that those "crucial" Core passengers are likely to be travelling on Oyster cards and are thus paying nowhere near as much for their season tickets as me.

I'm just fed up of paying more and more each year only to find my travel requirements steadily sidelined in pursuit of the 24tph Holy Grail.

Peak-hour travellers, usually with their season tickets are the reason why the intensive service is required in the core. If there was a more steady flow of passengers all day, the trains could be designed more for comfortable seating and less for peak capacity. It's always been that way where much of the infrastructure and stock investment is for 2 hours into and 2 hours out of the centre each day. The rest of the time, the assets are serving nobody and just costing lease and maintenance charges. Those whose travel creates such a lop-sided demand on the service also have subsidised fares through their season tickets, so they shouldn't really complain.

 

[Bald Rick]

The biggest disappointment is that trains that carry large numbers of longer distance passengers are being designed to tube train specifications in order to deal with passenger loadings over such a short part of the route.

Anyone who has used a GTR / FCC train between Bedford and London in the morning peak in the last 5 years will confirm that the part of the journey with the heaviest loadings is, without question, St. Albans to St Pancras.

Perhaps the trains are designed with this in mind as much as the need for short dwell times in the core?

 

[bramling]

Why? Do any of the Inner Suburban services get to that speed before slowing down for the next station? IF they don't then there's little economic sense to raising the line speed of the slow lines to 100mph, far better off raising speed limits from 30mph and 40mph to 60mph+ and up to 80mph at the maximum.

The answer is, yes. There are non-stop trains which run along the slows between Finsbury Park and Potters Bar (mix of 60 mph and 75 mph), whilst north of Welwyn North it's possible to exceed 75 mph between each pair of stations currently if routed on the fast lines, plus there are numerous limited-stop trains on the slows north of Woolmer Green especially during the peaks.

For a journey from King's Cross to Peterborough on the slow lines, once past Alexandra Palace there is nothing less than 70 mph, except 55 mph through Brookmans Park platforms, and the turnouts at Huntingdon. Brookmans Park is another location which would benefit from uplift.

Enhancing the slow lines would definitely claw back a few of the minutes lost since the 1990s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The segragation of the inner-suburban slows has already pretty much taken place, which is why the extra platforms at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park were built. As for the rest of your wishlist bramling, most of that will be happening with Thameslink.

In day-to-day running the Thameslink core will be fine, the ATO will see to that, so long as there are sufficient dwell times at each station. London Underground manage to operate a more intensive service using the same technology.

When something happens on the core there will be an emergency plan put in place and this will involve short-notice cancellations and diversions. It will involve turning stuff around at St Pancras or Kings Cross. It will only be chaos if they try and operate through the core regardless.

My only worry is that past experience shows that the Thameslink control have a worrying tendency to panic when things go wrong. I sincerely hope they've learned the lessons from Kentish Town but, judging by recent issues, I don't think they have.

I'm not convinced the inner-suburban segregation has happened. It would have done had extra platforms been built at Hornsey and Harringay. Had this happened the Hertford-Moorgate service wouldn't have to touch the 4-track main line at all, and the Welwyn service could turn off at Alexandra Palace. Unfortunately the extra platforms at these two stations didn't happen, so we're stuck with extra tracks which can't really be used to their full potential. The Welwyn all-stations services, of course, still share the slow lines north of Alexandra Palace, and more so north of Potters Bar where many of the semi-fast services cross from fast to slow for the remainder of their journey.

Unless they start tinkering with stopping patterns for the Hertford service (all trains missing out Hornsey and Harringay) then this situation will continue. It's frustrating, as it's so common to have a decent journey up to Alexandra Palace, then get stuck behind an all-stations train from there to Finsbury Park. Strangely, there seems to be a resistance to using the new US2 for King's Cross services, I have twice been this way, but it's only happened when there's been a line blockage of some sort, at other times they stubbonly continue to use the US1 even if this means being stuck behind something, or wait to cross to the UF also adding delay.

 

[Abpj17]

Anyone been caught up in tonight's rather significant problems during a DC - AC changeover at City TL?

Didn't think so.

Of course, I'm jinxed...

Or at least the aftermath. Had dinner tonight in Chinatown - checked emails and in no rush to leave. Had torrent of emails about delays and three in five minutes about one train which couldn't decide whether it was calling at my station or not. Checked app too - story seemed to change all the time from 20 min delay or cancellations.

Would usually aim for the last city thameslink train North (22.53) as easy to get bus there. Given scale of problems I headed to Blackfriars but pity the passengers at City who must have got booted out the station closed (with last two trains cancelled). Blackfriars was heaving. First train out was the four coach (with tables!) 23:08. Previous two cancelled. Train was completely full by Farringdon. We left hundreds at St Pancras, would guess 50 at Kentish town (who had another 30 min wait ahead); 100+ at West Hampstead etc. breathing room was first at elstree (rather than sardines). Full standing but not so tight until St albans (where we are now).

Worst I've seen this late for ages. Think the fast train behind us has probably changed to all stations though.

 

[asylumxl]

The biggest disappointment is that trains that carry large numbers of longer distance passengers are being designed to tube train specifications in order to deal with passenger loadings over such a short part of the route.


It remains galling that a passenger wishing to travel from London to St Albans/Luton/Bedford can be delayed by problems over 50 miles away in third rail land (otherwise known as the 1950s).


Passengers wanting to travel south from London have other alternatives (such as Victoria - Brighton) but erstwhile "BedPan" passengers are screwed.

As I'm sure you're aware from previous threads I agree whole heartedly.

Unfortunately, logic doesn't come in to decisions made on the railway.
I can't help but feel that the BedPan section of the route is basically viewed as a 50 mile turn back siding. If there was capacity at the London terminals for more trains on the BML I doubt it'd have ever been done.

 

[Abpj17]

While it may be wishful thinking, it felt better with the Moorgate branch because trains could turn there as part of business as usual. (Of course it would mean no 12 car trains...but given they are still rare beasts, we're not seeing the benefit of them yet; and 12 car trains with no drivers is a bit pointless)

 

[DelayRepay]

Would usually aim for the last city thameslink train North (22.53) as easy to get bus there. Given scale of problems I headed to Blackfriars but pity the passengers at City who must have got booted out the station closed (with last two trains cancelled). Blackfriars was heaving. First train out was the four coach (with tables!) 23:08. Previous two cancelled. Train was completely full by Farringdon. We left hundreds at St Pancras, would guess 50 at Kentish town (who had another 30 min wait ahead); 100+ at West Hampstead etc. breathing room was first at elstree (rather than sardines). Full standing but not so tight until St albans (where we are now).

Is this the third failure at City in a couple of weeks?

I have only been travelling into London 3 days a week since TL took over, and have already collected £60 of delay repay vouchers.

I've also noticed that at St Albans, the queues for the TVMs and ticket office seem much longer than they used to be. I can't blame TL for this as they have the same number of machines as FCC had and usually have all the ticket windows open. I wondered if anyone else had noticed this or if it was just my imagination?

 

[21C101]

You're welcome to have your 319s back! Or maybe Northern commuters who will appreciate the new trains would be better off with it than your spoilt behind, swap for a pacer perhaps? Really give you something to whine about

Jokes aside you can't compare buying a car to buying a train! for a start a train has to please ALL the people who use it. Louder inside? Third world problems? :P

Some pax are deliberately planning their journeys to make sure they are on a 319 not a 377/387!

Relatively comfortable facing seats, windows that open etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyone who has used a GTR / FCC train between Bedford and London in the morning peak in the last 5 years will confirm that the part of the journey with the heaviest loadings is, without question, St. Albans to St Pancras.

Perhaps the trains are designed with this in mind as much as the need for short dwell times in the core?

The simple solution is therefore to close it and make people travel from Abbey into Watford Junction and Euston. Its a duplicate station and isn't needed, without it the rest of the infrastructure is not overloaded.

Note to self: I must stop thinking in 1960s terms

Re City. One reason I get up at the crack of dawn so I can finish in time to get 1G91 is that I miss most of the operational delights that can be experienced an hour later....

 

[DelayRepay]

Twitter suggests there were actually 2 broken down trains at City yesterday - one at lunch time and one at night.

 

[21C101]

Looks like GTR have upset the drivers now. Departure board reporting multiple cancellations due to lack of drivers.

 

[AM9]

The simple solution is therefore to close it and make people travel from Abbey into Watford Junction and Euston. Its a duplicate station and isn't needed, without it the rest of the infrastructure is not overloaded.

Note to self: I must stop thinking in 1960s terms

Humour noted, but one solution may be to run a few of the 8 car SAC starters fast to the core, switching accross to the fasts at Radlett. An 08:00 ish fast starting empty would attract a lot of the passengers away from the platform 3 stops (no stairs to climb) reducing their dwells and allowing them to create a path at Radlett for the crossover. It may even manage a WHP stop to clear those passengers as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, I'm jinxed....

You were unlucky there. The power problems were much earlier, around 8pm, and only a couple of trains were affected. If you look carefully at Smithfield sidings, you might still see the remains of a pantograph and the dent in the girder near the roof.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've also noticed that at St Albans, the queues for the TVMs and ticket office seem much longer than they used to be. I can't blame TL for this as they have the same number of machines as FCC had and usually have all the ticket windows open. I wondered if anyone else had noticed this or if it was just my imagination?

Quite correct, but it happens every year. Anyone with a monthly season ticket that runs out anytime from early December will start buying weeklies or dailies due to the forthcoming hols.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Humour noted, but one solution may be to run a few of the 8 car SAC starters fast to the core, switching accross to the fasts at Radlett. An 08:00 ish fast starting empty would attract a lot of the passengers away from the platform 3 stops (no stairs to climb) reducing their dwells and allowing them to create a path at Radlett for the crossover. It may even manage a WHP stop to clear those passengers as well.

Nice though it would be for us Albanistas, all that does is reshuffle the pack. Every train arriving West Hampstead / St Pancras in the morning peak is wedged. So to avoid other trains absorbing more passengers, a St Albans fast starter would have to be wedged too.

 

[Mike395]

Bedford's departure board was a mess at 8am today - not helped admittedly with unrelated EMT signalling probs further north. It seems like TL is currently effectively only running 2tph southbound on the semi fasts due to the driver issues... St Albans must be a nightmare this morning!

 

[muddythefish]

Too few drivers because of cutbacks/lack of recruitment, drivers going sick because of work issues, or just good old-fashioned cock-ups ?

Either way, sounds like management failure to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Too few drivers because of cutbacks/lack of recruitment, drivers going sick because of work issues, or just good old-fashioned cock-ups ?

Either way, sounds like management failure to me.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109293. Post 15.

 

[user15681]

Less drivers transferred over from FCC to GTR than was expected, there's been a much higher than normal rate of sickness and drivers are doing less than expected (I should add, that's in no way blaming drivers). Recruitment of drivers is something already happening.

So no cutbacks, no lack of recruitment, no cock ups.

 

[AM9]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Nice though it would be for us Albanistas, all that does is reshuffle the pack. Every train arriving West Hampstead / St Pancras in the morning peak is wedged. So to avoid other trains absorbing more passengers, a St Albans fast starter would have to be wedged too.

That was what I imagined would happen. I think that an empty train at platform 1 for 2-3 minutes would clear the platform (except for those wanting local stations to London) including drawing in those arriving whilst it was waiting. It would be the same squeeze for Albanistas but the fast on platform 3 wouldn't need such a long dwell either there, or WHP or STP which also reduces capacity. If the turnback siding could accommodate 12 cars it would be even more effective.
(Most) St Albans commuters know that they are part of the line's problem and just want to get to London, even if a 20 minute stand is the only way. At least the 700s will have plenty of room for that. The issue for them is not so much comfort but reliability.