Cambrian hourly service consultation

[GarethJohn]

Minutes of line liaison committee from earlier this month not shedding much light.

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/?page_id=672


4. Update on Cambrian Lines Enhancement of Services

4.1 The meeting received an update on progress with the improved rail
service due in May 2015. The Vice Chair confirmed all was on track
and that final details over timetabling was being considered. There
was to be a meeting with Network Rail over final details due soon.

4.2 The meeting also considered the station improvements needed along
the main line from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth.
The attached schedule sets out the aspirations of the meeting.

4.3 The following works are either under way or planned:

i) Improvements to access to platform 3 at Shrewsbury Station.

ii) Improvements to access including new lifts at Machynlleth Station.
Works to be completed by March 2015.


iii) Powys County Council have been asked by Network Rail to take
forward the extra car parking to the east of Welshpool Station.

They've drawn where it's going with Chalk so it maybe ready in 2024.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They've drawn where it's going with Chalk so it maybe ready in 2024.

May 2015.

 

[berneyarms]

It would appear from a quick observation on Train Times that the connecting coast line trains will continue to operate to/from Machynlleth rather than starting/finishing at Dovey Junction.

Perhaps one of our more technically minded contributors could explain how the ERTMS signalling system allows one train to follow another train within four minutes of the first on a single track railway, as the trains are at times between Machynlleth and Dovey Junction. I'm used to looking at sections and split signals when examining potential paths and am intrigued by this.

However, it also appears that at least one northbound train is not scheduled to take a connection out of the service from Aberystwyth at Dovey Junction, based on the public timetable times:

06:43 Machynlleth-Pwllheli departs Dovey at 06:49; 06:30 Aberystwyth-Pwllheli arrives at Dovey at 06:51.

Surely those two trains should connect? Potential business may not be huge, but missing a connection like this by 2 minutes is unforgivable.

Also, the 15:37 Pwllheli-Machynlleth then goes empty to Aberystwyth at 18:05. Surely it could operate in service and provide a connection?

Also, why oh why is it impossible for ATW schedulers to deliver a clockface coastal line timetable? It should be perfectly possible crossing at Twywn, Barmouth and Harlech. Instead we get a hotch-potch of timings.

And a final question - why does the last northbound coastal train from Machynlleth leave there at 21:30, 44 minutes after the "connecting" service from Birmingham has continued on its way to Aberystwyth? Why cannot it leave directly after it, like all the other trains during the day?

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps one of our more technically minded contributors could explain how the ERTMS signalling system allows one train to follow another train within four minutes of the first on a single track railway, as the trains are at times between Machynlleth and Dovey Junction. I'm used to looking at sections and split signals when examining potential paths and am intrigued by this.

Mach to Dovey isnt a single section if I recall, there is more than one marker board in the section. Under RETB the headway was 4 minutes between the two so it would have had to have been replicated under ERTMS.

 

[323235]

It would appear from a quick observation on Train Times that the connecting coast line trains will continue to operate to/from Machynlleth rather than starting/finishing at Dovey Junction.

Perhaps one of our more technically minded contributors could explain how the ERTMS signalling system allows one train to follow another train within four minutes of the first on a single track railway, as the trains are at times between Machynlleth and Dovey Junction. I'm used to looking at sections and split signals when examining potential paths and am intrigued by this.

The whole principle of ERTMS is that you can have trains operating more closely together behind each other than traditional signalling headways is it not? All they need to maintain is a safe braking distance, which is monitored by on board and track side monitoring equipment.

 

[berneyarms]

Mach to Dovey isnt a single section if I recall, there is more than one marker board in the section. Under RETB the headway was 4 minutes between the two so it would have had to have been replicated under ERTMS.

Thanks for that - I guessed that there had to be a split section.

 

[Rhydgaled]

And a final question - why does the last northbound coastal train from Machynlleth leave there at 21:30, 44 minutes after the "connecting" service from Birmingham has continued on its way to Aberystwyth? Why cannot it leave directly after it, like all the other trains during the day?

Could it be because the last X28 bus from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth arrives there (specifically the bus depot, not the station) at 21:22?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The whole principle of ERTMS is that you can have trains operating more closely together behind each other than traditional signalling headways is it not? All they need to maintain is a safe braking distance, which is monitored by on board and track side monitoring equipment.

That, I think, would be ETCS level 3 (moving block signalling) which somebody once thought they could implement on the WCML... The Cambrian is only ETCS level 2. I'm not sure if ETCS level 3 has actually been implemented anywhere, is it just still theoretical?

No signal sighting issues with ETCS though, so that might help you put block sections closer together. I think the lineside equipment is supposed to be cheaper than convential signalling too, but I'm not too sure on that one.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks for that - I guessed that there had to be a split section.

Use to be back to back colour signals the Machynlleth side of Derwenlas, as Planner said was there from RETB days.

 

[Starmill]

And a final question - why does the last northbound coastal train from Machynlleth leave there at 21:30, 44 minutes after the "connecting" service from Birmingham has continued on its way to Aberystwyth? Why cannot it leave directly after it, like all the other trains during the day?

You're arguing for a last train to be made 45 minutes earlier...? I appreciate that connectional issues may arise, but surely this is the opposite of what you want!?

 

[berneyarms]

You're arguing for a last train to be made 45 minutes earlier...? I appreciate that connectional issues may arise, but surely this is the opposite of what you want!?

It's just completely out of place when you look at the rest of the timetable service pattern - that's why I'm asking the question of why that is?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Use to be back to back colour signals the Machynlleth side of Derwenlas, as Planner said was there from RETB days.

Thanks for that - confirms my suspicions!

 

[D1009]

It's just completely out of place when you look at the rest of the timetable service pattern - that's why I'm asking the question of why that is?

Could it be that the needs of long distance passengers aren't the only consideration in timetable planning?

 

[Gareth Marston]

FYI proposed departures from Newtown are

UP
0632,0736,0839,0939,1043,1241,1341,1445,1641,1838,1941,2041.
DOWN
0703,0804,1007,1114,1205,1410,1607,1804,1908,2007,2110,2219.

 

[Llanigraham]

Gareth,
Have you got the times off Caersws?
It looks like the UP are mostly earlier than now? (11 minutes?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

FYI proposed departures from Newtown are

UP
0632,0736,0839,0939,1043,1241,1341,1445,1641,1838,1941,2041.
DOWN
0703,0804,1007,1114,1205,1410,1607,1804,1908,2007,2110,2219.

Those are *so* close to being pure clockface (give or take the gaps) I can't understand why they aren't just xx40 and xx10 with some missing.

Neil

 

[trawscymru27]

I've already posted this in the May 2015 timetable thread, but I have searched Open Train Times for the new Cambrian services and put them into an Excel spreadsheet so they can be seen more clearly. Hope this is of use/interest.

 

[PHILIPE]

I've already posted this in the May 2015 timetable thread, but I have searched Open Train Times for the new Cambrian services and put them into an Excel spreadsheet so they can be seen more clearly. Hope this is of use/interest.

Very good and thanks. Easier than tediously working through Open Train Times.

 

[Llanigraham]

I've already posted this in the May 2015 timetable thread, but I have searched Open Train Times for the new Cambrian services and put them into an Excel spreadsheet so they can be seen more clearly. Hope this is of use/interest.

Thanks.
So the UP will be earlier off Caersws.
I will have to remind a few people!

 

[impster]

What are the implications of this on a journey from eg Borth to Aberdyfi and vice versa? I guess that providing the Aber/Borth end of the leg is using one of the new trains the journey times will be far better?

 

[berneyarms]

What are the implications of this on a journey from eg Borth to Aberdyfi and vice versa? I guess that providing the Aber/Borth end of the leg is using one of the new trains the journey times will be far better?

There are no new trains on the route - the trains will be exactly the same as at present.

The timetable is now finally reflecting the improved running times associated with ERTMS signalling and the elimination of temporary speed restrictions.

The revised timetable is posted in post #945 above.

 

[impster]

When I said 'new' trains, I meant 'additional services' 8 on the main line (AYW-SHR) and additional Friday night train through to Pwllheli.

Looks like 3 good connections one way and 4 good ones the other on journeys from Borth to Aberdyfi and vice versa, cutting out roughly an hour's wait for connection at DVY or MCN.

This all depends though on the size of the pinch of salt needed with OpenTrainTimes details which are not 100% accurate by any means.

 

[berneyarms]

When I said 'new' trains, I meant 'additional services' 8 on the main line (AYW-SHR) and additional Friday night train through to Pwllheli.

Looks like 3 good connections one way and 4 good ones the other on journeys from Borth to Aberdyfi and vice versa, cutting out roughly an hour's wait for connection at DVY or MCN.

This all depends though on the size of the pinch of salt needed with OpenTrainTimes details which are not 100% accurate by any means.

Apologies - yes connections between Aberystwyth and the Coast will be much better.

I'm not sure why you're doubting the times?

They look right to me.

 

[impster]

I'm doubting them because they're not even out for consultation yet.

But, having said that they are a positive indication of developments on the line.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Line Liaison Committee and the newly appointed Cambrian Rail Development Officer met with the Minister in Cardiff earlier this week. The feedback I've heard was it was all smiles and were just waiting on May arriving.....

 

[Llanigraham]

And the final, official timetable!

 

[Gareth Marston]

And the final, official timetable!

The line liaison Commitee minutes from Friday are online already. Including short note on meeting with Minister.

http://shrewsburyaberystwythrailway.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/RAILMINUTESFEB2015.pdf

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks Gareth.

 

[brianthegiant]

I don't understand the notion of a portable ERTMS unit which someone is obviously trying to push in the liason committee, would need to have a wired connection to a coil under the train for communication with Balises, ok thats doable. But wouldn't it also need control of the trains braking system? ERTMS on 158s take up a whole rack cabinet & required a hotel power upgrade. Is 'portable ERTMS equipment' a bit of an oxymoron?

reading the endless ERTMS steam debate on here & elsewhere and some of the negative responses regarding the Machynlleth footbridge give me the impression that some stakeholder representatives are more concerned with steam trains for enthusiasts than they are in the needs of the general travelling public.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I don't understand the notion of a portable ERTMS unit which someone is obviously trying to push in the liason committee, would need to have a wired connection to a coil under the train for communication with Balises, ok thats doable. But wouldn't it also need control of the trains braking system?

My guess is that the idea was a coach with the brake controls etc. with a portable screen for the cab which would show movement authority and permitted linespeed. This could therefore be used with just about any locomotive, without having to go through expensive and very difficult fittment work for each loco you want to use. From reading the 6023 website recently, it sounds like installing TPWS, OTMR etc. required for mainline steam at present causes issues with raising money and finding space on the loco for the kit.

Is 'portable ERTMS equipment' a bit of an oxymoron?

A note in the minutes posted by Gareth Marston suggests the answer to that question is yes. Here's what it says: "A mobile ERTMS system is not possible technically". If true, it sounds like ETCS could almost spell the end of mainline steam. I say almost because Tornado (and possibly therefore other new-build steam locos, if any succeed) is supposedly capable of having ETRMS installed.

reading the endless ERTMS steam debate on here & elsewhere and some of the negative responses regarding the Machynlleth footbridge give me the impression that some stakeholder representatives are more concerned with steam trains for enthusiasts than they are in the needs of the general travelling public.

I think the argument is an ecconomic one, steam trains attract more tourists than class 158 units. As for the footbridge, the general travelling public, not just enthusiasts, can appreciate ascetics. I can't recall seeing any lift-equipped station footbridge which is not a retrograde step cosmetically, and in the case of Machynlleth there is the question of whether the money could be better spent elsewhere given that there is already step-free access (albeit via fairly steep ramps to the road) to both platforms (as far as I can tell from the train anyway). At least there is some point in a lift-equipped footbridge though, unlike the new canopy stuck on the side of Aberystwyth station which vandalises the setting of the listed station building for no passenger benifit.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don't understand the notion of a portable ERTMS unit which someone is obviously trying to push in the liason committee, would need to have a wired connection to a coil under the train for communication with Balises, ok thats doable. But wouldn't it also need control of the trains braking system? ERTMS on 158s take up a whole rack cabinet & required a hotel power upgrade. Is 'portable ERTMS equipment' a bit of an oxymoron?

reading the endless ERTMS steam debate on here & elsewhere and some of the negative responses regarding the Machynlleth footbridge give me the impression that some stakeholder representatives are more concerned with steam trains for enthusiasts than they are in the needs of the general travelling public.

DDA mega structure - no trains cross at Machynleth so were spending £ million plus when all we needed to do was run everything ion to the DOWN platform which you can do withe etcs.

Area is very reliant on tourism hengst concern on steam.

 

[Llanigraham]

Whilst I fully understand the tourism requirements of running steam excursions especially on the coastal Cambrian I also understand the "problem" that ERTMS has brought. My understanding was that somewhere in Europe a portable ERTMS unit was in use.

I do wonder whether one of the "specialist" companies couldn't invest in a couple of Heritage DMU's, modify them for ERTMS, and use those on the Cambrian. I'm sure they would be popular, especially if the driver's blinds were kept up.