Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[clc]

I'd be confident it means what it says. Aberdeen journey time improvements are a key aim of the transport plan and while the new HSTs will help, electrification is really the medium term solution.

Just stopping at Dundee would reduce the journey time by 20 mins according to the STPR.

 

[Altnabreac]

One has to wonder if this is more for the Glasgow - Aberdeen route? Since I doubt the Forth bridge can be converted?

Forth Bridge can be wired. Fife Circle and Dundee is Phase 3 of Scottish Electrification and comes ahead of Dunblane to Aberdeen (phase 4).

Some technical fixes needed as I believe the diagonal cross braces are slightly tricky but I don't imagine it will be insurmountable.
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Just stopping at Dundee would reduce the journey time by 20 mins according to the STPR.

Yeah but that requires running a Dundee - Aberdeen stopper and losing direct Edinburgh / Glasgow services from Arbroath / Montrose / Stonehaven etc.

Politically unacceptable. Would need more capacity to be found south of Dundee allowing increases in frequency so intermediate stops retain direct trains.

 

[clc]

Yeah but that requires running a Dundee - Aberdeen stopper and losing direct Edinburgh / Glasgow services from Arbroath / Montrose / Stonehaven etc.

Politically unacceptable. Would need more capacity to be found south of Dundee allowing increases in frequency so intermediate stops retain direct trains.

Yes the STPR does say you'd need separate stopping services for intermediate stations. It mentions phase 1 requiring additional loops, linespeed improvements, more powerful rolling stock and upgraded signalling so I assume that's how the additional capacity will be created. It doesn't mention electrification as being part of the Aberdeen to Central Belt project so presumably the 20 minute time saving will be improved further once the line is wired.

 

[edwin_m]

Bi-modes might be a sensible option for the stage where electrification ends at Dundee. I suppose it depends when that happens and how well the refurbished HSTs are holding up.

 

[PHILIPE]

There is already a General Scottish Electrification thread, rather lengthy agreed. There are some points duplicated.

The link:= www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90420

 

[Blindtraveler]

Never seases to amaze me that more dont use XC If it fits with there timings given how cheep it is. Granted your guaranteed a vommiter but doubt Joh Public will mind. I do however wonder if the coach companys will react and throw extra vehicles out on there services? Maybe with a few non stoppers bus station to bus station?

 

[me123]

Never seases to amaze me that more dont use XC If it fits with there timings given how cheep it is. Granted your guaranteed a vommiter but doubt Joh Public will mind. I do however wonder if the coach companys will react and throw extra vehicles out on there services? Maybe with a few non stoppers bus station to bus station?

Same here. In fact, I'm surprised more people don't go from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh if they're changing at Glasgow anyway, preferring to find their way across to Queen Street.

Granted, the Shotts stopper is slow, but the express Shotts services and the ones via Carstairs (particularly the XCs) are reasonably competitive if you're making a change at Central.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was always the need for speed, the Falkirk route typically 20 minutes quicker won. But if it was disrupted all bets were off when heading to Glasgow. I did often use GNER to get to Edinburgh for a better train. But stopped this when they retimed to leave at x50 instead of x00. If XC got closer to the 58 minutes for the journey that used to be possible I would use them more. Voyager / Turbo = don't care much.

 

[Ploughman]

A couple of years back I missed my train from Glasgow Central on GNER so nipped across to Queen st and caught an Edinburgh train from there. Made it to Edinburgh about 20 minutes ahead of the train I missed.
Could not say what route it went as I have slept since and forgotten.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

A couple of years back I missed my train from Glasgow Central on GNER so nipped across to Queen st and caught an Edinburgh train from there. Made it to Edinburgh about 20 minutes ahead of the train I missed.
Could not say what route it went as I have slept since and forgotten.

It was probably Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High and it only takes roughly 40-50 minutes...

 

[Failed Unit]

It was probably Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk High and it only takes roughly 40-50 minutes...

You did well to beat it by 20 mins (unless it picked up a delay on route).

 

[NotATrainspott]

What are ScotRail going to do with the units they won't be able to use on the E&G shuttle during the blockade? I'm sure there would be people happy to take a slower route via Shotts or Carstairs if they had a far greater chance of getting a seat, so putting them on these routes couldn't be a bad idea.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

What are ScotRail going to do with the units they won't be able to use on the E&G shuttle during the blockade? I'm sure there would be people happy to take a slower route via Shotts or Carstairs if they had a far greater chance of getting a seat, so putting them on these routes couldn't be a bad idea.

Do people not realise they can go from Central to Edinburgh via Motherwell on XC? It only stops at Motherwell as well. I have no idea why people would want to go on slower routes that stop at every station possible...

 

[clc]

Do people not realise they can go from Central to Edinburgh via Motherwell on XC? It only stops at Motherwell as well. I have no idea why people would want to go on slower routes that stop at every station possible...

How frequent are XC services?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

How frequent are XC services?

I think they are every hour but don't quote me on that...And most often I've found the fares on XC going to Edinburgh are actually cheaper than Scotrail...

 

[me123]

1tp2h. Although it's not far off hourly that way when you adding the more frequent Scotrail services running via Carstairs.

These days, there is a frequent and competitive service from Central to Edinburgh, with 2tph making the journey in reasonable time (1 via Carstairs and 1 via Shotts, limited stop). The all shacks via Shotts is far from competitive as an end-end journey.

Compared to just a few years ago, Central is a competitive option for Edinburgh. Whilst the Falkirk route remains the fastest for point-to-point journeys, the journeys from Central have their niche for transferring passengers (avoiding the walk through Glasgow for transferring pax) and perhaps for people who would prefer to be dropped off in that part of the city centre.
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Do people not realise they can go from Central to Edinburgh via Motherwell on XC? It only stops at Motherwell as well. I have no idea why people would want to go on slower routes that stop at every station possible...

I'd agree. My preference for end-end journeys during the disruption would be to go from Central. However it looks like Scotrail are pushing the line via Airdrie as the best alternative, and it will work because people will used to travelling primarily from Queen Street. It's going to be a nightmare on that line, and probably a slower journey too if you get the local.

 

[Failed Unit]

For me queen street / central are the same for time. Even if you are heading to St Enoch centre.

I know many people that use the Bathgate route to get to Charing Cross. (I prefer QS and walk)

It will all be about getting a seat for me. XC is fine but the frequency puts many off the XC only fare.

 

[adrock1976]

Same here. In fact, I'm surprised more people don't go from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh if they're changing at Glasgow anyway, preferring to find their way across to Queen Street.

Granted, the Shotts stopper is slow, but the express Shotts services and the ones via Carstairs (particularly the XCs) are reasonably competitive if you're making a change at Central.

I was always the need for speed, the Falkirk route typically 20 minutes quicker won. But if it was disrupted all bets were off when heading to Glasgow. I did often use GNER to get to Edinburgh for a better train. But stopped this when they retimed to leave at x50 instead of x00. If XC got closer to the 58 minutes for the journey that used to be possible I would use them more. Voyager / Turbo = don't care much.

Don't forget when changing between the 2 Glasgow stations that it is a minimum of 30 minutes that is officially recommended.

I have walked from Dundas Street exit to Gordon Street in less than 7 minutes, albeit at 6:30 AM with no traffic on the roads.

Of course, if Glasgow Crossrail was up and running by now, it would eliminate the 30 minutes needed for the interchange. With plans for HS2, the Glasgow station should be built on the site of the former College Goods Yard, providing an interchange at Bellgrove station and with Glasgow Crossrail too. Edinburgh HS station should ideally be built in the vicinity of the Newbridge area so as to provide an interchange with the trams, local rail services, and for the airport too, then continue the HS line to Newcastle.

In peace

Adam

 

[Failed Unit]

Yep. I can easily walk between the 2 in 10 minutes, normally quicker if it is quiet.

I am not sure how many spare 170s will be around during the blockade.

Linlithgow- glasgow will run and Dunblane- Edinburgh will need extra sets because of the detour. I expect some will be released but not as many as you may expect.

 

[me123]

Don't forget when changing between the 2 Glasgow stations that it is a minimum of 30 minutes that is officially recommended.

I have walked from Dundas Street exit to Gordon Street in less than 7 minutes, albeit at 6:30 AM with no traffic on the roads.

It is a really quick and easy interchange across Glasgow by foot, and 10 minutes is usually sufficient (if you're adept at dodging the charity beggars). However, I say that as someone who was born and bred in the city. For someone who has never been to Glasgow, it may be a rather more daunting prospect (particularly if they've been watching too much Taggart). The wee free bus looks more appealing on paper, but takes a long and slow route, with a long stop at Buchanan Bus Station when travelling from Central to Queen Street (bizarrely, it runs a circular route where a point-to-point service would be quicker).

Of course, if Glasgow Crossrail was up and running by now, it would eliminate the 30 minutes needed for the interchange.

If Glasgow Crossrail was up and running, the longer journey time would make any benefits negligible. As I say, someone who knows where they're going can make the interchange in 10 minutes. At GLQ, you're supposed to allow 10 minutes anyway, which when added to the longer journey to the low level makes the time benefits rather negligible (although is a much easier interchange to make).

 

[clc]

The wee free bus looks more appealing on paper, but takes a long and slow route, with a long stop at Buchanan Bus Station when travelling from Central to Queen Street (bizarrely, it runs a circular route where a point-to-point service would be quicker).
.

The new 'Fastlink' bus service will connect Central, QS and Buchanan bus station. It will run in the opposite direction to the free shuttle bus so Central to QS will take just a few minutes. I suspect it won't be free but should be high frequency.

 

[route:oxford]

I was discussing this with some friends who do the Dunblane/Stirling run every day.

The general consensus is that:-

They will be ensuring that they take as much holiday as possible during the period.

P&R and tram is a good option

The SNP have a lot to answer for with the cancellation of the heavy rail link to Edinburgh Airport and the anticipation of the inconvenience will be reflected in the votes in the general election.

 

[me123]

The new 'Fastlink' bus service will connect Central, QS and Buchanan bus station. It will run in the opposite direction to the free shuttle bus so Central to QS will take just a few minutes. I suspect it won't be free but should be high frequency.

You never know, it might be free for rail ticket holders between Central and Queen Street as a replacement for the 398.

Fastlink very much falls into the category of "I'll believe it when I see it". Wasn't it a key part of the Commonwealth Games bid? I'm not aware of them doing any work on it. An official website still boasts that it will be open sometime between 2012-14.
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The SNP have a lot to answer for with the cancellation of the heavy rail link to Edinburgh Airport and the anticipation of the inconvenience will be reflected in the votes in the general election.

I struggle to see how the SNP can be blamed for the disruption. They have supported EGIP (albeit a reduced version thereof) as have many other political parties in Scotland. EGIP in all its forms calls for electrification, which would have included the Winchburgh tunnel. The work is necessary.

I'm not overly convinced about heavy rail to Edinburgh Airport being the best use of public money. Edinburgh Park & the upcoming Edinburgh Gateway stations connecting to the trams provide a rather excellent option for travel to Edinburgh Airport (although I'd argue that through fares would make this option even more attractive).

 

[clc]

You never know, it might be free for rail ticket holders between Central and Queen Street as a replacement for the 398.

Fastlink very much falls into the category of "I'll believe it when I see it". Wasn't it a key part of the Commonwealth Games bid? I'm not aware of them doing any work on it. An official website still boasts that it will be open sometime between 2012-14.

Fastlink services start running in a couple of months. The infrastructure between the Broomielaw and the new hospital in Govan is in place. They haven't yet built the city centre infrastructure that will give Fastlink buses priority at traffic lights etc but that should happen soon.

As far as I know the 398 will continue to run after Fastlink services start. So if transferring from Central to QS the Fastlink will be quicker; and for QS to Central you'd take the 398.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The SNP have a lot to answer for with the cancellation of the heavy rail link to Edinburgh Airport and the anticipation of the inconvenience will be reflected in the votes in the general election.

EARL had some issues, partly due to how it would be served primarily by diesel rolling stock. Electrifying the route that everyone uses everyday is a better use of the limited amount of money available than building a suboptimal scheme which the vast majority of people would only use once in a blue moon anyway. Similar problems existed with GARL, and that's why it was not unreasonable to cancel them.

What could have avoided this trouble would have been the Almond Chord, which was indeed dropped from the EGIP plan. However, the fundamental reasoning behind this was that it would be better to deliver extra capacity in the short term by lengthening the same number of trains per hour, thus not requiring various grade-separation works and not requiring Anniesland services to be evicted from Queen Street HL. The chord would have prevented the Winchburgh problems in the short term but if there aren't enough services to justify its existence the rest of the time, it wouldn't be the best use of money to build it now instead of building some other scheme.

 

[clc]

Network Rail has tweeted that double tracking of the Busby to East Kilbride line is on the cards, though not for 5-10 years:

(http://twitter.com/NetworkRailSCOT/status/579929431461990400?s=17)

Presumably electrification will happen at the same time.

 

[me123]

Network Rail has tweeted that double tracking of the Busby to East Kilbride line is on the cards, though not for 5-10 years:

(http://twitter.com/NetworkRailSCOT/status/579929431461990400?s=17)

Presumably electrification will happen at the same time.

Hmm, interesting. A worthwhile project. Could we see 4tph to EK then? I think it could be justified!

 

[QueensCurve]

Fife Circle – 2024?

Haymarket – Inverkeithing
Inverkeithing – Kirkcaldy via Dunferminline
Inverkeithing – Kirkcaldy via Kinghorn

The Scottish ministers HLOS for CP5 requires that “the following strategic projects to be developed to an appropriate level to inform potential future funding decisions: Phase 3, 4 and 5 electrification in line with the conclusions of the STPR design schemes” We can assume therefore that the phasing of future electrification set out in the STPR is still valid and would form the basis of a continuing rolling electrification plan of circa 100km per year. If this is the case then the Fife Circle Line will be the first Phase 3 project to progress.

Phase 3 completion to Dundee/Perth – 2026?

Kirkcaldy – Ladybank
Ladybank – Dundee
Ladybank - Perth

The STPR Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network describes Phase 3 of electrification as “Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;” (see p74) so these routes would be the next in line for completion.

Purely out of interest, do the "high girders" of the Tay Bridge give enough clearance for electrification? I suspect they do, but if not it could be very expensive to provide it.

 

[dtaylor84]

The SNP have a lot to answer for with the cancellation of the heavy rail link to Edinburgh Airport and the anticipation of the inconvenience will be reflected in the votes in the general election.

...Huh?

 

[route:oxford]

Edinburgh Park & the upcoming Edinburgh Gateway stations connecting to the trams provide a rather excellent option for travel to Edinburgh Airport (although I'd argue that through fares would make this option even more attractive).

The lack of through fares to Edinburgh Airport is a national disgrace. Transport Scotland, TfE and the SNP government should be utterly ashamed - although Nicola Sturgeon allegedly doesn't use trains.
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...Huh?

Heavy rail to Edinburgh airport, as cancelled by the SNP, would have resulted in a number of Dunblane/Stirling services being routed via the airport on a new curve.

Had the curve/airport station been in place, there would be no need for a reversal for this work.

(Not that many Dunblane/Stirling people would vote for nationalists anyway).