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Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

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Altnabreac

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Heavy rail to Edinburgh airport, as cancelled by the SNP, would have resulted in a number of Dunblane/Stirling services being routed via the airport on a new curve.

Had the curve/airport station been in place, there would be no need for a reversal for this work.

(Not that many Dunblane/Stirling people would vote for nationalists anyway).

I think the point most were making above was that Dalmeny Chord would have provided the same benefits to through passengers during the Winchburgh tunnel as EARL.

I personally was in favour of EARL but I'm afraid it's a ship that has long since sailed never to return. Politically it's presence or absence is fairly irrelevant as few people outside the rail world were ever aware of it's existence or upset by it's cancellation.

Unlike GARL it never really became a political issue.

The reason for the cancellation of EARL and GARL while Borders rail was folllowed through despite a lower BCR is that Airports do not have any voters. People want to be able to get to airports but for most it isn's a daily journey but an occasional one, and a solution like Edinburgh Gateway + Tram will be sufficient for most.

Ultimately people are very unlikely to base their voting patterns on the diversion plans for a six week period as part of a major overall upgrade of the route.
 
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jopsuk

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Pretty sure at one point a proposal for EARL would have had a large station under the airport with a four track railway to Haymarket, with all Fife and Falkirk services routed through it
 

QueensCurve

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The SNP have a lot to answer for with the cancellation of the heavy rail link to Edinburgh Airport and the anticipation of the inconvenience will be reflected in the votes in the general election.

The original EARL plan was "needed but not doable" and involved diverting both the Falkirk High and Fife routes via a station under the airport.

While I understand the reasons for cancellation, a single track siding airport branch off the Fife line could have been built quickly and cheaply and would have been open long before the trams but would have done nothing to help with Winchburgh closure.
 

najaB

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Purely out of interest, do the "high girders" of the Tay Bridge give enough clearance for electrification? I suspect they do, but if not it could be very expensive to provide it.
See if you can judge from this picture I took, it could be a little tight:
 

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fgwrich

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a la Thameslink/Crossrail - yes maybe IMHO

The very same solution I was thinking of for the Forth Bridge as well. Although I'll admit, I wouldn't want to be an OHLE Engineer having to install the OHLE systems at those heights! :o
 

Rick1984

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I think cancelling the Glasgow Airport Link makes sense. Also better solution would be a people mover (same as Stansted or Gatwick) from ethier St. James station or a new station further north. It could use elevated track and follow the M8.

Unfortunately the Ayr line from St. James has been partially built over as this would allow Ayr trains to use the new interchange station. Maybe a short tunnel could be built.

The advantage would be all through games would be able to serve the Airport and a people mover system would be step-free linking direct to terminal so no inconvenience for passengers.

Nothing to say this scheme would cost less than the original though.
 

me123

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I think cancelling the Glasgow Airport Link makes sense. Also better solution would be a people mover (same as Stansted or Gatwick) from ethier St. James station or a new station further north. It could use elevated track and follow the M8.

Unfortunately the Ayr line from St. James has been partially built over as this would allow Ayr trains to use the new interchange station. Maybe a short tunnel could be built.

The advantage would be all through games would be able to serve the Airport and a people mover system would be step-free linking direct to terminal so no inconvenience for passengers.

Nothing to say this scheme would cost less than the original though.

I completely agree.

I agree that the principle of GARL is a good idea. Linking a major international airport to the rail network has all sorts of economic benefits. However, in practice GARL as it was proposed was foolish at best. It saw the recently created capacity on the Glasgow-Paisley corridor squandered on what would be half-empty trains running every 15 minutes non-stop to Paisley then onto Glasgow Airport. Meanwhile, the existing lines would have continued to become more and more crowded. With GARL cancelled, there has been significant improvements in the frequencies to Ayrshire which I would argue are a much better use of the capacity on the line.

A light rail link connecting at Paisley Gilmour Street would be an attractive option IMO. Whilst it may not be as good as a dedicated heavy rail station, it would allow good interchange opportunities from Ayrshire, Inverclyde, and Glasgow itself. This option has proven effective at other major international airports, including Birmingham International, New York JFK, Newark Liberty, Paris CDG, Düsseldorf, and Seoul ICN to name just some.

Unlike yourself, I've pushed the boat out and decided to extend the line to Gilmour Street. Whilst it is admittedly a longer journey than to St James, it has the benefit of linking to more services without disrupting a system that already works. Although it is longer, it is not prohibitively long, and much longer journeys are possible on similar systems in other countries.
 

Altnabreac

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Network Rail has tweeted that double tracking of the Busby to East Kilbride line is on the cards, though not for 5-10 years:

(http://twitter.com/NetworkRailSCOT/status/579929431461990400?s=17)

Presumably electrification will happen at the same time.

Hmm, interesting. A worthwhile project. Could we see 4tph to EK then? I think it could be justified!

As a thought experiment I have taken the ORR Station Usage figures for 2013-14 for Strathclyde stations with at least 1tph service and put them in a table with the tph to each station (excluding Central and Queen Street).

I then divide the total usage by the trains per hour to give a usage / tph ranking.

The top stations are:
tph, usage / tph, station
2 539,766 East Kilbride
1 449,060 Largs
9 439,391 Paisley Gilmour Street
2 413,203 Helensburgh Central
2 391,324 Lenzie
2 377,152 Bishopbriggs
4 369,104 Ayr
2 346,046 Hairmyres
4 309,766 Croy
4 308,108 Johnstone
2 277,354 Kilmarnock
4 267,922 Mount Florida
2 259,236 Clarkston
2 258,225 Balloch
3 256,551 Uddingston
4 236,727 Milngavie
8 236,093 Charing Cross (Glasgow)
6 229,249 Exhibition Centre Glasgow
6 228,321 Argyle Street
4 227,723 Irvine
5 227,067 Motherwell
4 226,196 Hamilton West
3 218,505 Barrhead
1 213,034 Wemyss Bay
2 208,356 Neilston
4 206,090 Bellshill
4 203,831 Hamilton Central
2 203,037 Larkhall
2 198,771 Patterton
2 198,642 Wishaw
14 191,022 Partick
1 186,920 West Kilbride
2 184,791 Carluke
6 179,949 Airdrie
4 176,907 Dumbarton Central
2 173,924 Saltcoats
2 173,528 Alexandria
6 171,715 Rutherglen
2 170,287 Paisley Canal
2 169,174 Muirend
4 168,408 Shettleston
2 166,273 Pollokshaws East
4 163,328 Troon
2 162,999 Stewarton
4 161,744 Bridgeton
6 159,979 Kilwinning
4 159,605 Singer
2 157,665 Giffnock
2 152,320 Lanark
4 151,198 Queen's Park (Glasgow)
4 150,636 Blantyre

This quick analysis certainly seems to support the case for East Kilbride going to 4tph with 4 of the 20 busiest 2tph stations located on this line.

Also suggests to me the next lines in need of a frequency increase would be:
  • 2tph for Largs - 2 of the 3 busiest 1tph and 1 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Neilston - 3 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Kilmarnock - 2 of the busiest 20 2tph stations, and the 2nd busiest 3tph station.
  • 4tph Lenzie, Bishopbriggs, 6tph Croy - more calls only really possible if High Speed Rail takes over direct E-G services.

All of these frequency increases would need infrastructure works such as redoubling, electrification, new lines.

The key to all of them looks to be capacity constraints into Glasgow Central High Level. If that can be fixed then all the other schemes flow from there.
 
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jopsuk

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For a GARL replacement, if you had a tram-type system, then something running Braehead-Renfrew-Airport-Paisley-Barrhead?
 

me123

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For a GARL replacement, if you had a tram-type system, then something running Braehead-Renfrew-Airport-Paisley-Barrhead?

Then onto South Glasgow University Hospital and over (under?) the river to Partick.

There must be a reason I keep coming back to this idea. It just seems to make sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also suggests to me the next lines in need of a frequency increase would be:
  • 2tph for Largs - 2 of the 3 busiest 1tph and 1 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Neilston - 3 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Kilmarnock - 2 of the busiest 20 2tph stations, and the 2nd busiest 3tph station.
  • 4tph Lenzie, Bishopbriggs, 6tph Croy - more calls only really possible if High Speed Rail takes over direct E-G services.

All of these frequency increases would need infrastructure works such as redoubling, electrification, new lines.

The key to all of them looks to be capacity constraints into Glasgow Central High Level. If that can be fixed then all the other schemes flow from there.

I'm not at all surprised to see that EK's 4tph is well justified in terms of numbers. A little more surprised at Neilston and Largs being suggested for growth, but I could get onboard with those plans.

There are a few problems for Largs, though. The train route is very convoluted compared to the road alternative (either over the Haylie Brae to Lochwinnoch or via the coast), which may limit future growth on end-to-end journeys. McGills provide 4bph directly at present, which will appeal to the older population of Largs with their free bus passes. With a higher cost and longer journey time, it'll be harder to attract these passengers away from the bus. It may be that, although Largs looks promising, there could be limited scope for growth with the route (although I'll happily be proven wrong!).

However, there's a suggestion for at least 5tph over and above the existing service - could we finally have some justification for funding Crossrail? That said, the increased journey time, likely astronomical cost for redeveloping High Street and congestion at GLQ LL would still concern me to a degree.

Lenzie and Bishopbriggs are crying out for more service, but as you've said the capacity simply is not there. I've used the stations, and it is infuriating looking at the number of trains flying through at speed whilst you wait for one of just 2tph to call (a low number considering their proximity to Glasgow).
 
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clc

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As a thought experiment I have taken the ORR Station Usage figures for 2013-14 for Strathclyde stations with at least 1tph service and put them in a table with the tph to each station (excluding Central and Queen Street).

I then divide the total usage by the trains per hour to give a usage / tph ranking.

The top stations are:
tph, usage / tph, station
2 539,766 East Kilbride
1 449,060 Largs
9 439,391 Paisley Gilmour Street
2 413,203 Helensburgh Central
2 391,324 Lenzie
2 377,152 Bishopbriggs
4 369,104 Ayr
2 346,046 Hairmyres
4 309,766 Croy
4 308,108 Johnstone
2 277,354 Kilmarnock
4 267,922 Mount Florida
2 259,236 Clarkston
2 258,225 Balloch
3 256,551 Uddingston
4 236,727 Milngavie
8 236,093 Charing Cross (Glasgow)
6 229,249 Exhibition Centre Glasgow
6 228,321 Argyle Street
4 227,723 Irvine
5 227,067 Motherwell
4 226,196 Hamilton West
3 218,505 Barrhead
1 213,034 Wemyss Bay
2 208,356 Neilston
4 206,090 Bellshill
4 203,831 Hamilton Central
2 203,037 Larkhall
2 198,771 Patterton
2 198,642 Wishaw
14 191,022 Partick
1 186,920 West Kilbride
2 184,791 Carluke
6 179,949 Airdrie
4 176,907 Dumbarton Central
2 173,924 Saltcoats
2 173,528 Alexandria
6 171,715 Rutherglen
2 170,287 Paisley Canal
2 169,174 Muirend
4 168,408 Shettleston
2 166,273 Pollokshaws East
4 163,328 Troon
2 162,999 Stewarton
4 161,744 Bridgeton
6 159,979 Kilwinning
4 159,605 Singer
2 157,665 Giffnock
2 152,320 Lanark
4 151,198 Queen's Park (Glasgow)
4 150,636 Blantyre

This quick analysis certainly seems to support the case for East Kilbride going to 4tph with 4 of the 20 busiest 2tph stations located on this line.

Also suggests to me the next lines in need of a frequency increase would be:
  • 2tph for Largs - 2 of the 3 busiest 1tph and 1 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Neilston - 3 of the busiest 20 2tph stations
  • 4tph for Kilmarnock - 2 of the busiest 20 2tph stations, and the 2nd busiest 3tph station.
  • 4tph Lenzie, Bishopbriggs, 6tph Croy - more calls only really possible if High Speed Rail takes over direct E-G services.

All of these frequency increases would need infrastructure works such as redoubling, electrification, new lines.

The key to all of them looks to be capacity constraints into Glasgow Central High Level. If that can be fixed then all the other schemes flow from there.

Some interesting stats in there, thanks for pulling it together.

I hadn't realised Milngavie gets nearly 1 million passengers. Perhaps Milngavie is an example of what could happen with East Kilbride. Milngavie's 4tph don't all go to the same city centre station: half go via Central, half via Queen Street, so it doesn't really have turn up and go frequency. The same could happen with East Kilbride if the City Union line was restored: run 2tph to Central and 2tph to Queen St low level/Charing Cross. You could run the Charing Cross services skip stop to reduce the journey time. For example, you could skip Thontonhall, Pollokshaws West, Crossmyloof and Gorbals. The EK-Queen Street journey time would then only be around 6 mins longer than EK-Central. And of course going to QS and Charing X would reduce walking time for many passengers so overall journey time would be similar.

You'd continue to run additional peak services to Central (ie. 4tph to Central plus 2tph to Charing X) so there'd be no disbenefits for existing passengers.

The Scottish Govt is spending £104 million expanding Queen St and we know it wants to make use of the spare capacity on the low level line so this seems like a good option.

Neilston doesn't surprise me as being a contender for higher frequency. It's a line I've used many times and it's always overcrowded at peak times, which is one of the reasons I prefer to take the bus these days. It's set to become busier when the new Barrhead South station opens in a few years time. As it'll be the second last station on the line virtually all existing passengers will find it harder to find a seat.
 

me123

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Some interesting stats in there, thanks for pulling it together.

I hadn't realised Milngavie gets nearly 1 million passengers. Perhaps Milngavie is an example of what could happen with East Kilbride. Milngavie's 4tph don't all go to the same city centre station: half go via Central, half via Queen Street, so it doesn't really have turn up and go frequency. The same could happen with East Kilbride if the City Union line was restored: run 2tph to Central and 2tph to Queen St low level/Charing Cross. You could run the Charing Cross services skip stop to reduce the journey time. For example, you could skip Thontonhall, Pollokshaws West, Crossmyloof and Gorbals. The EK-Queen Street journey time would then only be around 6 mins longer than EK-Central. And of course going to QS and Charing X would reduce walking time for many passengers so overall journey time would be similar.

Milngavie has the benefit of an interchange at Patrick. Whilst it is 2tph direct to GLQ and 2tph direct to GLC, in reality it provides 4tph to/from both via an interchange at Partick/Hyndland.

If this option was to be viable from EK, you should be looking at a similar interchange being available at Crossmyloof station. If we tried to make this an interchange station and had most/all services calling here, we could see 8tph at this station (4tph to EK, 2tph to Barrhead, 2tph to Kilmarnock). Run the GLQ service a few minutes ahead of a Kilmarnock-Central train to allow a connection to Central. In the return direction, have it run just behind a Kilmarnock train to provide a similar connection for the return journey. On the other hand, have the Barrhead train run just before the EK train to offer passengers a connection to get to Glasgow Queen Street, and again just behind it in the other direction to pick up passengers from GLQ. So, let's look at a hypothetical northbound timetable at Crossmyloof (times are completely random, but the idea of the service pattern is what matters).

xx:00 BRR-GLC (allowing connections to)
xx:06 EKB-GLQ(-CHC and possibly beyond) (allowing connections to)
xx:15 KMK-GLC
xx:23 EKB-GLC

I keep reading talk about Edinburgh-Airdrie-Ayrshire services via Crossrail. I cannot imagine these ever getting off the ground. The existing traffic flows to the City Centre are being completely ignored in these proposals, and I can't imagine that the journey times are that much better than transferring across the City Centre to the fast services via Falkirk.
 

Altnabreac

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Then onto South Glasgow University Hospital and over (under?) the river to Partick.

There must be a reason I keep coming back to this idea. It just seems to make sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not at all surprised to see that EK's 4tph is well justified in terms of numbers. A little more surprised at Neilston and Largs being suggested for growth, but I could get onboard with those plans.

There are a few problems for Largs, though. The train route is very convoluted compared to the road alternative (either over the Haylie Brae to Lochwinnoch or via the coast), which may limit future growth on end-to-end journeys. McGills provide 4bph directly at present, which will appeal to the older population of Largs with their free bus passes. With a higher cost and longer journey time, it'll be harder to attract these passengers away from the bus. It may be that, although Largs looks promising, there could be limited scope for growth with the route (although I'll happily be proven wrong!).

However, there's a suggestion for at least 5tph over and above the existing service - could we finally have some justification for funding Crossrail? That said, the increased journey time, likely astronomical cost for redeveloping High Street and congestion at GLQ LL would still concern me to a degree.

Lenzie and Bishopbriggs are crying out for more service, but as you've said the capacity simply is not there. I've used the stations, and it is infuriating looking at the number of trains flying through at speed whilst you wait for one of just 2tph to call (a low number considering their proximity to Glasgow).

I have to say the one that surprised me was Kilmarnock, Stewarton and Barrhead, but there is strong housing growth in those areas and again a busy bus service provided by Stagecoach X77 shows evidence of potential unmet demand by rail.

Largs is a surprisingly busy station for 1tph but I picked it out over others like Helensburgh or Balloch because the demand looks to be there at West Kilbride and Saltcoats as well for more services. at 2tph it starts to be more competitive with McGills as well.

Imagine it would need the two single lines from Ardrossan to Hunterston to be changed back to normal double track.

If you speculatively throw in Bridge of Weir, Renfrew, GARL, 2tph for Wemyss Bay and both Edinburgh and England High Speed Rail coming to Glasgow Central then you can quickly get to a near doubling of required paths into Central High Level from 30tph or so to more like 55.

You can't deal with that simply by putting a few services into a new Finnieston turnback, it requires a proper long term solution.

For me though, while Crossrail has some of those answers if the capacity issue is really to be dealt with properly, a full Cross city tunnel solution is required. Here's hoping TS agree and start looking at it in detail.
 

170401

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Lenzie and Bishopbriggs are crying out for more service, but as you've said the capacity simply is not there. I've used the stations, and it is infuriating looking at the number of trains flying through at speed whilst you wait for one of just 2tph to call (a low number considering their proximity to Glasgow).

It doesn't help that many services serving these stations have been reduced from 3 car to 2 car in recent years, often loading well past capacity in the off peak (even with a 3 car full and standing is not uncommon). Although this problem will be fixed with full EGIP implementation, their is no chance of any increase in service until high speed rail is introduced in the long term future.

Personally I would have liked to have seen 4 tracking between Cadder/lenzie and Gartshore/Croy but I suspect the political will is never going to be there for a project like this given the aspirations for HSR.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
This is why I've mentioned previously that the Glasgow High Speed station should be built on the site of the former College Goods Yard next to Bellgrove station, so as to provide an integrated interchange with local services and Glasgow Crossrail.

Likewise at the Edinburgh end, the I believe the HS station should be built somewhere in the Newbridge area, so as to be close to the airport and provide an integrated interchange with the trams. Then continue the HS line to Newcastle.

In peace

Adam
 

me123

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If you speculatively throw in Bridge of Weir, Renfrew, GARL, 2tph for Wemyss Bay and both Edinburgh and England High Speed Rail coming to Glasgow Central then you can quickly get to a near doubling of required paths into Central High Level from 30tph or so to more like 55.

Quite a lot of speculation to justify a major infrastructure project, such as a new Glasgow terminal station or an expensive tunnel through the City Centre. I think you'd need a more certainty with regard to the other rail projects before you can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds (if not billions of pounds) building this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is why I've mentioned previously that the Glasgow High Speed station should be built on the site of the former College Goods Yard next to Bellgrove station, so as to provide an integrated interchange with local services and Glasgow Crossrail.

Likewise at the Edinburgh end, the I believe the HS station should be built somewhere in the Newbridge area, so as to be close to the airport and provide an integrated interchange with the trams. Then continue the HS line to Newcastle.

In peace

Adam

Wouldn't the benefits of High Speed Rail be significantly reduced if you're requiring passengers to transfer onto local trains at both ends? The journey time with EGIP will be 42 minutes, with 37 minutes a possibility in the medium term.

Assuming HSR will be faster than this (and TBH 37 minutes is pretty darn good), the benefits are reduced somewhat by a 5 minute extra journey at the Glasgow end to get to GLQ (+ a minimum 5 minute connection at Bellgrove). There's no tram stop at Newbridge, so you'd have to extend the tram line to get there. But let's hypothetically use Ingleston as an alternative (which is closer to Edinburgh), with a journey time of 30 minutes by tram at present to get to Princes Street. Again, allow 5 minutes for connecting. Even with these low connection times, you're looking at a journey of 50 minutes by this route before you even factor in the main body of the journey between Glasgow and Edinburgh!

This is a complete non-starter. You've got an expensive rail line that links two places no-one wants to go, needs better transport links at either end to get them to where they want to go, and by the time it's up and running, the existing rail link is going to be quicker than even getting to these out-of-town stations.
 

Altnabreac

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Quite a lot of speculation to justify a major infrastructure project, such as a new Glasgow terminal station or an expensive tunnel through the City Centre. I think you'd need a more certainty with regard to the other rail projects before you can justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds (if not billions of pounds) building this.

Oh yes you'd be talking several billion pounds but there we are.

The alternative is a few services diverted via Crossrail, Tram Train running to Cathcart Circle services and the Finnieston turnback.

I just feel you could spend a billion pounds on those three and still find you had a shortage of capacity. Better to go for something game changing.

The Scottish Government Infrastructure plan has this in it:

Glasgow Terminal Stations (West of Scotland Strategic Rail Enhancements).
Capacity improvements to allow continued growth in rail travel into Glasgow as well as protect the longer term delivery of High Speed Rail
STPR estimate in range £1.3-£3 billion
Beyond 2019
To be determined once scheme developed

So spending in that sort of magnitude is being envisaged. £3bn buys you more than just Crossrail and Finnieston turnback.

Lets assume a very rough £150m per mile for tunneling and £500m per simple station, £1bn for a station underneath Central which would be more complex to build.

A minimal scheme could run with just a single city centre station at Glasgow Central and something like 3 miles of tunnel from Cowlairs to Shields Road. That would probably come in at the bottom of that £1.3 - £3bn sort of range.

If it were me though I'd go for a more ambitious scheme with 7 miles of tunnel from Hillington - Springburn and 5 intermediate stations:
South Glasgow University Hospital
Govan (change for Subway)
Clydeside (for SECC & Digital Media Quarter)
Glasgow Central
High Street or Cathedral

That would be more like £4bn on my very rough cost estimates but given some of the proposed station sites are fairly open locations you could probably save a fair bit of money to get it down towards £3bn.

It's a big scheme but something of this nature is probably needed to address Glasgow's transport needs long term. Better to spend £3bn on that than £1bn on patch and mend.
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
The Shinkansen station at Kobe is on the edge of the city, but is integrated into the local public transport system.

Bristol Parkway station is not in Somerset/Avon, nor within the city of Bristol. it is actually in Stoke Gifford, which is in Gloucestershire. It provides an interchange between the Midland Railway and Great Western Railway destinations.

The reason why the Glasgow and Edinburgh HS stations in my view should be constructed in the vicinity of Bellgrove and with your suggestion of Ingliston which I take on board, is to provide integration with local public transport systems. By having a dedicated HS station, it would allow an increase in capacity for regional and local services owing to the geological conditions of both cities.

On a final point regarding the phrase "nobody wants to go", I've never bought into that at all, as we all start and finish our journeys on public transport by being a pedestrian. Also, every year in the centre of Glasgow, I most certainly do not want to be there in the centre on the Saturday before the 12th July due to the various troublemakers that crawl out of the woodwork.

In peace

Adam
 

Altnabreac

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The Shinkansen station at Kobe is on the edge of the city, but is integrated into the local public transport system.

Bristol Parkway station is not in Somerset/Avon, nor within the city of Bristol. it is actually in Stoke Gifford, which is in Gloucestershire. It provides an interchange between the Midland Railway and Great Western Railway destinations.

The reason why the Glasgow and Edinburgh HS stations in my view should be constructed in the vicinity of Bellgrove and with your suggestion of Ingliston which I take on board, is to provide integration with local public transport systems. By having a dedicated HS station, it would allow an increase in capacity for regional and local services owing to the geological conditions of both cities.

On a final point regarding the phrase "nobody wants to go", I've never bought into that at all, as we all start and finish our journeys on public transport by being a pedestrian. Also, every year in the centre of Glasgow, I most certainly do not want to be there in the centre on the Saturday before the 12th July due to the various troublemakers that crawl out of the woodwork.

In peace

Adam

There may be a place for interchange stations on the outskirts of Edinburgh and/or Glasgow but you would be completely counterproductive not to run the long high capacity high speed trains into existing city centre stations. It would destroy the business case.

In the first phase high speed rail will use the existing stations at Glasgow Central, Haymarket and Waverley.

In a future phase dedicated lines to new city centre stations could be built and High Street is the option preferred by Glasgow City Council. My view is that of the 3 options (High Street, Bellgrove, Central) Glasgow Central will still prevail because of it's superior onward connections to the rest of the West of Scotland.

Why would you prioritise low capacity shorter local services to run into city centres over high capacity longer high speed services?

How would all the passengers from high speed rail fit onto the already full local services?

Wouldn't that actually reduce capacity on local public transport systems as they'd be full of interchanging HS passengers?
 

me123

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The Shinkansen station at Kobe is on the edge of the city, but is integrated into the local public transport system.

Shin-Kobe station is a different thing altogether. It's not a terminal station, so there are benefits in having the train avoid the city centre, allowing it to run at high speed for a longer period of time and maintaining a good end-end journey time whilst still serving Kobe. By contrast, a high speed Glasgow-Edinburgh railway is going to be using a terminal station at both ends regardless of where that terminal is.

Shin-Kobe is not a station I'm overly familiar with, but it seems to be a good idea for what its trying to achieve. However, a telling quote on the wikipedia page demonstrates that it's not a perfect solution. "Many Shinkansen passengers from central Kobe, however, use Shin-Ōsaka Station to the east instead of the closer Shin-Kobe Station, because Shin-Ōsaka Station is easily accessible by JR Kobe Line and more trains leave at Shin-Ōsaka for Tokyo, the capital of the country."

Bristol Parkway station is not in Somerset/Avon, nor within the city of Bristol. it is actually in Stoke Gifford, which is in Gloucestershire. It provides an interchange between the Midland Railway and Great Western Railway destinations.

True. But it runs to London Paddington, Reading and Cardiff Central, to name but three major stations served. It doesn't run to "somewhere near London", "somewhere near Reading" and "somewhere near Cardiff". Of course, there will be lots of onward journeys via public transport at these stations, but it's taking people to the city centre in all cases. And besides, Bristol Parkway hasn't replaced the Temple Meads, which is the station that you'd most likely choose for travelling London to Bristol.

Parkway stations have their role. Serving a city centre is not their role. Your plan links two parkway stations, probably with no intermediate stops. I cannot see that being viable.

The reason why the Glasgow and Edinburgh HS stations in my view should be constructed in the vicinity of Bellgrove and with your suggestion of Ingliston which I take on board, is to provide integration with local public transport systems. By having a dedicated HS station, it would allow an increase in capacity for regional and local services owing to the geological conditions of both cities.

...But a City Centre station would still be integrated into local transport. In fact, it'd be better integrated into local transport than would a station out in Bellgrove. In both Edinburgh and Glasgow, you'd have significantly better public transport links to the city centre stations. This is particularly true for Bellgrove, where users of the North Clyde Line are already benefitting from a direct link to Edinburgh.

On a final point regarding the phrase "nobody wants to go", I've never bought into that at all, as we all start and finish our journeys on public transport by being a pedestrian. Also, every year in the centre of Glasgow, I most certainly do not want to be there in the centre on the Saturday before the 12th July due to the various troublemakers that crawl out of the woodwork.

I don't like going to Glasgow on those days either. Indeed, I usually exile myself at that time. But I'm not sure what this has to do with high speed rail linking Bellgrove to a car park near Edinburgh Airport - and yes, it sounds insane but that's what you're proposing!

Parkway stations work by attracting people to an out-of-town station which then takes them to where they want to go. Neither Bellgrove nor Newbridge/Ingleston is where people want to go. The rail option is much less attractive when you've got a significant local journey at both ends, which the vast majority of people would have.

The reality is that, with this proposal, the trains are not going to be attractive to anyone. Your journey time city centre-city centre is quicker via Queen Street and Falkirk to Waverley. It's probably even quicker to go via Shotts or Carstairs. These routes also offer better transport connections to just about everywhere in Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The local transport at each end of your proposed route is so slow that even people boarding at Edinburgh Park would probably be just as well off catching a train via Airdrie and Bathgate. Please remember that Glasgow and Edinburgh are just 50 miles apart; it is not a huge distance. To be honest, if the 37 minutes promised by EGIP are delivered, I think that's an acceptable end-end journey time.

I cannot see who this would appeal to. There are already much better transport options for just about every journey I can think of that would use this service. This would be a criminal waste of money if it went ahead. It is a poorly thought out plan.
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OA minimal scheme could run with just a single city centre station at Glasgow Central and something like 3 miles of tunnel from Cowlairs to Shields Road. That would probably come in at the bottom of that £1.3 - £3bn sort of range.

If it were me though I'd go for a more ambitious scheme with 7 miles of tunnel from Hillington - Springburn and 5 intermediate stations:
South Glasgow University Hospital
Govan (change for Subway)
Clydeside (for SECC & Digital Media Quarter)
Glasgow Central
High Street or Cathedral

That would be more like £4bn on my very rough cost estimates but given some of the proposed station sites are fairly open locations you could probably save a fair bit of money to get it down towards £3bn.

It's a big scheme but something of this nature is probably needed to address Glasgow's transport needs long term. Better to spend £3bn on that than £1bn on patch and mend.

THIS is the kind of Crossrail I can get onboard with. It's expensive, but it works. It delivers everything Glasgow Crossrail hopes to do, whilst also being sensitive to existing travel demands and providing little to no inconvenience to existing journeys. North Clyde services could potentially be diverted to this new line, with the pre-proposed Crossrail also happening to divert some south side services into Queen Street Low Level.

I think you could argue for having a City Centre station at Buchanan Street with an underground travelator link between the three stations (Central, Buchanan Street, including Subway, Queen Street). This may sound like fantasy, but they are close together, and much longer links exist elsewhere in the world (I'm thinking Times Square 42nd Street in New York, and even at Heathrow Terminal 123 stations). I'd also suggest free travel on the Fastlink bus as an option for those less able to walk this distance.

So, you'd have interchanges at Crossmyloof/other South Side station (as described above, to maintain links to Central), ? at Glasgow Cross to the Argyle Line, High Street (North Clyde-Existing Crossrail Proposal), Buchanan Street (to City Centre Stations and Buchanan Street Subway), Govan (to Subway) and Paisley (to the West Coast).

Maybe we're getting just a bit carried away here, but I think these plans have legs. Now, we just all need to win Euromillions. :lol:
 
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clc

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Lets assume a very rough £150m per mile for tunneling and £500m per simple station, £1bn for a station underneath Central which would be more complex to build.

A minimal scheme could run with just a single city centre station at Glasgow Central and something like 3 miles of tunnel from Cowlairs to Shields Road. That would probably come in at the bottom of that £1.3 - £3bn sort of range.

If it were me though I'd go for a more ambitious scheme with 7 miles of tunnel from Hillington - Springburn and 5 intermediate stations:
South Glasgow University Hospital
Govan (change for Subway)
Clydeside (for SECC & Digital Media Quarter)
Glasgow Central
High Street or Cathedral

That would be more like £4bn on my very rough cost estimates but given some of the proposed station sites are fairly open locations you could probably save a fair bit of money to get it down towards £3bn.

It's a big scheme but something of this nature is probably needed to address Glasgow's transport needs long term. Better to spend £3bn on that than £1bn on patch and mend.

I wonder if there might be a better way to serve the new hospital while still achieving the required capacity benefits.

How about a combination of 2 schemes mentioned in the STPR, augmented by your suggestions:

- a tunnel from Shields to Springburn with stations at Central and High St/Cathedral; and

- a separate tunnel from Cardonald to Jordanhill with a station at the hospital.

As stated in the STPR the Cardonald-Jordanhill section would form part of a circular suburban route along with the Maryhill Branch to Cowlairs and the City Union line. You could throw in a station at Ibrox too. I think that scheme might be a more effective way to serve the new hospital as it would provide direct links to a large number of areas within the city. With 10,000 people working at the hospital, plus visitors of course, the potential market is significant and should be exploited.
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Milngavie has the benefit of an interchange at Patrick. Whilst it is 2tph direct to GLQ and 2tph direct to GLC, in reality it provides 4tph to/from both via an interchange at Partick/Hyndland.

If this option was to be viable from EK, you should be looking at a similar interchange being available at Crossmyloof station. If we tried to make this an interchange station and had most/all services calling here, we could see 8tph at this station (4tph to EK, 2tph to Barrhead, 2tph to Kilmarnock). Run the GLQ service a few minutes ahead of a Kilmarnock-Central train to allow a connection to Central. In the return direction, have it run just behind a Kilmarnock train to provide a similar connection for the return journey. On the other hand, have the Barrhead train run just before the EK train to offer passengers a connection to get to Glasgow Queen Street, and again just behind it in the other direction to pick up passengers from GLQ. So, let's look at a hypothetical northbound timetable at Crossmyloof (times are completely random, but the idea of the service pattern is what matters).

xx:00 BRR-GLC (allowing connections to)
xx:06 EKB-GLQ(-CHC and possibly beyond) (allowing connections to)
xx:15 KMK-GLC
xx:23 EKB-GLC

.

Sounds like a plan. Maybe the time you'd have to wait for a connection could be cut down to the bare minimum, say 3 minutes?

I'd envisaged an interchange at West Street but that wouldn't be a same platform change like Crossmyloof. A connection to West St would still be desireable though for subway interchange.
 
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ADRboy

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Messages
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I can't understand where a HS rail link at Bellgrove/High Street would go? Proposing to use the city union line?

College Goods Yard has many new buildings on it, with much more to come in the next couple of years.
 

NotATrainspott

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I can't understand where a HS rail link at Bellgrove/High Street would go? Proposing to use the city union line?

College Goods Yard has many new buildings on it, with much more to come in the next couple of years.

There's been various ideas about using the space there for a high speed rail terminus, but I don't think there has been any more public discussion of this at the same time as the land has become full up of new and proposed other developments. It's another nail in the coffin of the non-Central HSR terminal ideas.

adrock1976 suggests this idea every single time the idea of the City Union Crossrail is brought up. However, we actually have the precedent of Manchester to look at here, whereby the option of putting the HS2 terminus in a relatively central but not traditional location was specifically rejected because of the very poor onward connectivity possible. Even Salford Council supported putting HS2 at Piccadilly rather than within its own boundaries since it knew the Salford options were so suboptimal.
 

clc

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I can't understand where a HS rail link at Bellgrove/High Street would go? Proposing to use the city union line?

College Goods Yard has many new buildings on it, with much more to come in the next couple of years.

The council's development plan talks about safeguarding 'High Street East' as the location for the HSR terminus, with a new line running alongside the existing Airdrie-Bathgate line as it's favoured route into the City.
 

me123

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With journey times of 37 minutes supposedly achievable on the main route via Falkirk, do we really need High Speed Rail between Glasgow and Edinburgh? 37 minutes is a fantastic journey time. Would it not be more cost-effective to upgrade the existing route (e.g., 4 track from Glasgow to the junction just past Croy whose name I can't remember) rather than creating a 5th route between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

And with the money we save, we could invest in improving local transport at either end.
 

Class83

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Messages
529
With journey times of 37 minutes supposedly achievable on the main route via Falkirk, do we really need High Speed Rail between Glasgow and Edinburgh? 37 minutes is a fantastic journey time. Would it not be more cost-effective to upgrade the existing route (e.g., 4 track from Glasgow to the junction just past Croy whose name I can't remember) rather than creating a 5th route between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

And with the money we save, we could invest in improving local transport at either end.

Isn't a High Speed Line from Edinburgh to Glasgow just a side effect of the need for the lines from each to Carlisle to meet somewhere, much like the only electrified route used to be.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
With journey times of 37 minutes supposedly achievable on the main route via Falkirk, do we really need High Speed Rail between Glasgow and Edinburgh? 37 minutes is a fantastic journey time. Would it not be more cost-effective to upgrade the existing route (e.g., 4 track from Glasgow to the junction just past Croy whose name I can't remember) rather than creating a 5th route between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

And with the money we save, we could invest in improving local transport at either end.

I agree that 37 minutes is fantastic. Also, using England's two largest cities for comparison, the Intercity services between London and Birmingham via the London & Birmingham Railway takes around 80 minutes to traverse the route, a distance of around 110 miles.

Edinburgh to Glasgow via the E&G Railway today takes around 50 minutes to traverse the route, a distance of approximately 47 miles - less than half the distance between London and Birmingham.

I think the junction you are referring to is Greenhill Junction, Bonnybridge, where the connecting chord diverges on to the Caledonian Railway main line northbound towards Stirling.

In peace

Adam
 
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