W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Flamingo]

I know it's slightly off topic, but how will this affect 'local' service like portsmouth - Cardiff in years to come? The trains due to replace the 158's are already DOO capable.

Good question, well presented...

 

[387star]

Good question, well presented...

It will come I have heard rumours of DOO on all routes out of Bristol including Pompey to Cardiff

 

[pompeyfan]

That is very concerning.

 

[387star]

That is very concerning.

They are fitting door key panels whilst installing exterior cameras to the turbos to appease guards in the short term

To be clear staff will remain on board but attempts at DOO lead to worsening conditions pay and job security

It is [portsmouth to cardiff DOO] some time off yet however (but a rumour) and will be battled over
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There've never been DOO slammers.

But I thought FGE were always DOO? Did the predecessors to the 360s on the great eastern definitely have guards then

 

[313103]

Can a member of FGW traincrew on here, can confirm that the new IEPs will be operated in DOO mode and that catering will be a trolley cart? Also that if any staff take industrial action over this the company will not make available a voluntary redundancy offer? I have seen on a facebook railway group and copied to my computer but cannot post to here as it requires a link from a website to do that. It appears as an email sent to FGW members of staff and at best is very disingenuous.

 

[387star]

Can a member of FGW traincrew on here, can confirm that the new IEPs will be operated in DOO mode and that catering will be a trolley cart? Also that if any staff take industrial action over this the company will not make available a voluntary redundancy offer? I have seen on a facebook railway group and copied to my computer but cannot post to here as it requires a link from a website to do that. It appears as an email sent to FGW members of staff and at best is very disingenuous.

The plan is for Train managers to keep their present pay and conditions and for the job to be unaltered except for removing the opening and closing of the doors part *cough choke* hang on that's a major part of their role! This is further dependant on TM's agreeing to the proposals

DOO is carefully not explicitly mentioned in the letter with the caveat they can run with the driver as the only member of staff on board when a TM is not immediately available


From the letter:


• The Driver will be solely responsible for the operation of the doors on SET trains.
• Although not the normal method of operation, SET services could be operated with the Driver as the only member of staff on board when a Train Manager is not immediately available.


There's the crux
SET means Super Express Trains to avoid confusion
Also see:



http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-declares-dispute-and-prepares-to-ballot-on-fgw/

 

[Rhydgaled]

Can a member of FGW traincrew on here, can confirm that the new IEPs will be operated in DOO mode and that catering will be a trolley cart? Also that if any staff take industrial action over this the company will not make available a voluntary redundancy offer? I have seen on a facebook railway group and copied to my computer but cannot post to here as it requires a link from a website to do that. It appears as an email sent to FGW members of staff and at best is very disingenuous.

Standard class catering on the IEP batch for Great Western is a trolley, kitchens in the first class driving vehicle only unless FirstGW kick up a fuss and I don't think they have. Catering on the First-Group-specified add-on order though is not clear, might be better than the DfT-specified IEP fleet. I am not railway staff though.

Could the 165/6 be re-formed to create 4 carrage units? In the same way 158/9s are? I can't imagine 3 carriages being enough with the current growth of the bristol - portsmouth section.

The one saving grace of the proposal is that the Portsmouth-Cardiffs are apparently planned to go to 5-car (2-car + 3-car in multiple I believe). I still don't like the fact that they are promoting it solely as a good news story (extra carriages) and not appologising at all for the downgrade from regional-express 158s to outer-suburban class 166/165 stock.

 

[LowLevel]

Colchester to Liverpool Street in stages has been DOO since the late 80s/early 90s for power door trains. Beyond Colchester to Ipswich and Norwich all trains are guard operated, as are things like Clacton, Southminster branch for 12 cars etc. Slam door trains were guard operated regardless, though I believe right at the end with the 312s when they only worked 1 or 2 trains per day the guard was actually a second driver acting as guard.

 

[D1009]

• Although not the normal method of operation, SET services could be operated with the Driver as the only member of staff on board when a Train Manager is not immediately available.


There's the crux
SET means Super Express Trains to avoid confusion
Also see:



http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-declares-dispute-and-prepares-to-ballot-on-fgw/

Wouldn't that mean lots of CCTV equipment to enable the driver to check it was safe to close the doors?

 

[jimm]

Didn't feedback from a recent survey find that passengers wanted more staff in customer facing roles to offer information/assistance etc? Can't remember where I saw it but it has been mentioned in the "Greater West" promotions. Considering IEP is going to be DOO compatible - It feels like FGW are going in the wrong direction.

Recently, a 5 car train pulled into a station near to me (usually a bit of a squeeze) but one of the doors wasn't on the platform properly, and as a result this door wasn't used thanks to the guard. - If this was DOO, someone could've easily stepped down not realising and broken their ankle or something. Doesn't bear thinking about really. I'd say a guard should be essential to the majority of services.

FGW's announcement the other week said specifically that 100 extra customer-facing staff would be taken on, though it did not specify exactly what they would be doing.

In cases such as the one you mention, where the train is a tight fit on a platform, then the trains will be programmed, as a matter of course, to only open doors that they can be 100 per cent sure will be on the platform.

Something like a third of UK passenger services are currently operated as DOO but I haven't noticed a catastrophic decline in safety standards over the past couple of decades since it became commonplace. Maybe the drivers are quite good at operating safely too?

And there is a small minority of guards out there who are quite happy to sit in the back cab and just work the doors, rather than venture out to be seen by passengers or check tickets, no matter what their employer's official policies say, so probably no bad thing if they can't use door operation as an excuse for their behaviour any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't that mean lots of CCTV equipment to enable the driver to check it was safe to close the doors?

The cameras were part of the IEP specification. See page 20 of the document. Details of the various modes of door operation that will be available are on page 44

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

 

[313103]

And there is a small minority of guards out there who are quite happy to sit in the back cab and just work the doors, rather than venture out to be seen by passengers or check tickets, no matter what their employer's official policies say, so probably no bad thing if they can't use door operation as an excuse for their behaviour any more.

I knew it wouldn't be long for this very old chestnut to come bombing its way into this thread!

Seems you see GUARDS as BUS conductors!

Even when I was guard and the method of working was inside the train with the public it still didn't prevent them from getting rid of me and my colleagues though did it?

As you know so much about all the employer's official policies perhaps you can enlighten us all as to what they are.

 

[Carlisle]

But I thought FGE were always DOO? Did the predecessors to the 360s on the great eastern definitely have guards then

FGE had a small fleet of 312s which were always operated with guards in the normal way until replaced by the 360s ,then it became pretty much a completely DOO railway apart from the Clacton Walton Harwich and Sudbury branches which were never converted

 

[jimm]

I knew it wouldn't be long for this very old chestnut to come bombing its way into this thread!

Seems you see GUARDS as BUS conductors!

Even when I was guard and the method of working was inside the train with the public it still didn't prevent them from getting rid of me and my colleagues though did it?

As you know so much about all the employer's official policies perhaps you can enlighten us all as to what they are.

So are you saying such a thing as a guard sitting snug in the back cab and just doing the doors never, ever, ever happens and I was just imagining it...? Did you miss the bit where I said "small minority"?

And is DOO an unsafe way of working? Please enlighten us. Because if that is the case, then a lot of people are being transported around in unsafe trains.

 

[embers25]

They are fitting door key panels whilst installing exterior cameras to the turbos to appease guards in the short term

To be clear staff will remain on board but attempts at DOO lead to worsening conditions pay and job security

It is [portsmouth to cardiff DOO] some time off yet however (but a rumour) and will be battled over
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But I thought FGE were always DOO? Did the predecessors to the 360s on the great eastern definitely have guards then

I understand the job security issues and realise potential money savings won't be passed on to passengers but I'm sorry there is very little if any evidence that DOO is less safe in reality, just in theory. I agree having another member of staff on board in an emergency should be better but as experience has shown, an emergency evacuation from a non DOO train is just as chaotic as a DOO one. If DOO is such a risk why don't all staff refuse to work lines where they might come into contact with one of these "deadly" DOO trains?

 

[Flamingo]

So are you saying such a thing as a guard sitting snug in the back cab and just doing the doors never, ever, ever happens and I was just imagining it...? Did you miss the bit where I said "small minority"?

And is DOO an unsafe way of working? Please enlighten us. Because if that is the case, then a lot of people are being transported around in unsafe trains.

Jimm, do you think that is is safer?

 

[The Ham]

Jimm, do you think that is is safer?

Travelling by train with DOO is safer than travelling by road, by quite a long way. With regards to which is safer DOO or travelling on a train with a guard given the very low level of incidents it would be fairly hard to statistically say one way or another, unless you know of research which has looked into this.

However, I would guess that DOO/Guard hiding in the rear cab services are fairly comparable and is probably is marginally less safe than services with guards who are visual within the passenger area (i.e. all in all not a lot of difference between each).

However:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/timetables-and-travel/delays-explained/fatalities/

Of the fatalities on the railway in 2013/14, seven occurred on a level crossing, 18 involved people trespassing on the railway and 280 were suicide or suspected suicide.

Implying that the biggest factors related to fatalities on the railways are (mostly) beyond the control of the railways and no matter how many guards were on trains it would have little difference to these figures. That isn't to say that guards don't have a role to play in keeping passengers safe.

 

[JonathanH]

FGE had a small fleet of 312s which were always operated with guards in the normal way until replaced by the 360s ,then it became pretty much a completely DOO railway apart from the Clacton Walton Harwich and Sudbury branches which were never converted

At one time there was a half-hearted proposal that the guard on the 312-operated trains to London should be someone (member of the public) on their way to work. This would avoid the need for FGE to actually employ guards as the units only did a peak-flow service to London.

I think the idea was soon withdrawn.

 

[455driver]

As for this carefully worded DOO letter, TM's will be done away with in the near future and the drivers will be doing it all.

While DOO is safe, crew working is safer!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for this carefully worded DOO letter, TM's will be done away with in the near future and the drivers will be doing it all.

While DOO is safe, crew working is safer!

Though driver operated doors (or at least driver-released doors as used by VT) have big advantages even if you keep the guard - for one, revenue protection on stopping services is much easier. And much of the safety advantage is retained.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There's less of a delay between stopping and door release too

 

[tsr]

I too am in favour of the driver releasing doors, especially as it is quicker and easier for the driver to see they have stopped short (in any event that they happen to), and also generally a bit faster. However, there's still some stock on the network where SDO requires a guard/conductor to release the doors (eg. 171s) and I can't see that going away in the immediate future. I strongly agree that guards should dispatch trains wherever possible, perhaps barring stations where dispatchers can be provided as needed and the trains operate under ATO, as I understand there are some technologies where adding a guard to this would not necessarily be practical.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It will come I have heard rumours of DOO on all routes out of Bristol including Pompey to Cardiff

So what will happen with travel to and from stations without ticketing facilities (eg: Oldfield Park, Keynsham, Freshford, Avoncliff etc).

 

[thelongestroad]

Apparently an update will be provided on what the plan is for the 'West' services at a later date. Of course, the Turbos already have DOO and some of the 150/1s still have the ability fitted from previous use.

The RMT have declared a dispute, but I don't really know what a possible strike would achieve. The ball is in ASLEF's court, for now...

 

[Domh245]

In the carefully worded letter where they reffered to things continuing as they were (but with driver operating the doors and tms not being necessary to run the train etc) does that mean that the train managers still are deemed safety critical, and will be trained in protection of the line etc? If they are to remain safety critical, one would hope that any new recruits are also trained to a similar level and with the same pay structure, otherwise you may end up with a split workforce.

Also what will be the procedure for the 2x 5 car services, are they due to have a TM in each part, or will there be one for the entire train?

 

[Mojo]

So what will happen with travel to and from stations without ticketing facilities (eg: Oldfield Park, Keynsham, Freshford, Avoncliff etc).

DOO does not necessarily mean that there will be no-one on board selling tickets. See the model used on HS1 domestic services and Strathclyde Electrics.

 

[PermitToTravel]

In the carefully worded letter where they reffered to things continuing as they were (but with driver operating the doors and tms not being necessary to run the train etc) does that mean that the train managers still are deemed safety critical, and will be trained in protection of the line etc? If they are to remain safety critical, one would hope that any new recruits are also trained to a similar level and with the same pay structure, otherwise you may end up with a split workforce.

Surely the whole point is that they won't recruit any more TMs, but won't make any existing ones redundant?

 

[yorkie]

So what will happen with travel to and from stations without ticketing facilities (eg: Oldfield Park, Keynsham, Freshford, Avoncliff etc).

The TM will be more likely to be able to sell you a ticket than at present, as they won't have to worry about the doors.

This is currently the case on the Strathclyde electrics, which are DOO, but have a member of staff who constantly patrols the train checking and selling tickets (Some of them are members of this forum, and they do an excellent job in my opinion; I always feel safe on those trains).

 

[Carlisle]

some of the 150/1s still have the ability fitted from previous use.

.

Although originally designed as being DOO compatible in reality Class 150s have so far never operated anywhere on DOO services other than empty stock workings, same goes for all the other class 142-159 dmu stock

 

[VP185]

DOO will slowly happen everywhere across the UK rail network. Any new train order will see trains fitted with exterior CCTV cameras to enable DOO operation.

The DfT wants to cut railway running costs and this is how they will achieve it.

 

[Carlisle]

The DfT wants to cut railway running costs and this is how they will achieve it.

I would think if First Group are able to achieve these changes without a lengthy period of industrial strife they will be well and truly back in the good books of the DFT