TfL chief Sir Peter Hendy: Southeastern trains into capital are 'sh*t'

[ChiefPlanner]

The article is total political dross of the highest degree, designed into drumming up support for LO taking over more rail services (which for the record I am very strongly against)

Exactly - as a lifetime bus man - the 38 Bendibus on his watch was far , far worse than any SE Metro train. (needed about 30 Police and Inspectors to do a very rare revenue check) - the free bus of choice for miscreants.

Political posturing of the highest order.

 

[matt_world2004]

More consolidation in the rail network can only be a good thing. It means simpler fares for passengers and the ability to change services more easily due to passenger demand.I can't wait until tfl take over fgw paddington to reading services as they are currently ****, quite frankly.

 

[jon0844]

The article is total political dross of the highest degree, designed into drumming up support for LO taking over more rail services (which for the record I am very strongly against)

But it will work for sure. Who is going to side with the TOCs compared to TfL, the same organisation putting up posters throughout London pointing out that TfL is a not-for-profit organisation and reinvests all the money it makes..

I suspect that if LO took over some routes, and imposed an all-stations policy (with, perhaps, some express trains like the Met line) then a lot of people might not be so happy and seek to take faster services, IF they still exist.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You can do anything with money - as I said before - Silverlink Metro when I ran it had 52 station staff for the whole line - we tried very hard in a challenging area and social background. I would have loved a fleet of 378 /170 and fully staffed stations instead of "ok" 313's (a total of 19 , and 10 class 117 units)

Still I got the fleet scrubbed up , a zero graffiti train policy and 96% on the Watford DC line .....

 

[Taunton]

Well said Sir Peter - someone who both tells it like it is and also has a better understanding of transport economics and operation than just about anybody.

 

[Antman]

Well said Sir Peter - someone who both tells it like it is and also has a better understanding of transport economics and operation than just about anybody.

But the same criticisms can be levelled at his own TfL services

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well said Sir Peter - someone who both tells it like it is and also has a better understanding of transport economics and operation than just about anybody.

Disagree

 

[matt_world2004]

You can do anything with money - as I said before - Silverlink Metro when I ran it had 52 station staff for the whole line - we tried very hard in a challenging area and social background. I would have loved a fleet of 378 /170 and fully staffed stations instead of "ok" 313's (a total of 19 , and 10 class 117 units)

Still I got the fleet scrubbed up , a zero graffiti train policy and 96% on the Watford DC line .....

But isn't that caused by lack of investment by the TOC?

 

[Hophead]

I've used South Eastern services the last two Saturdays and found the trains and service excellent. (St.Pancras to Gravesend and St.Pancras to Ashford and back)

Which suggests that heavy investment can lead to higher passenger satisfaction (not unlike the London Overground network)

 

[Wolfie]

I'm just waiting for the WA and Crossrail take over so I can grab my popcorn and watch it all go horribly wrong and for TFL to get some stick from the punters for a change

Frankly the resources and planning devoted to this means your scenario is just unlikely to happen.. almost anyone wouldn't have to try too hard to be better than the current WA incumbent...

 

[infobleep]

I have to say that South West Trains and their staff are very good and do very well with the resources that they have. Yes I have to stand in the morning but there will never be a realistic solution to this.

Cross Rail 2 is a solution to this I think or at least I really hope it is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TfL run a fairly simple rail system which while usually very good is not perfect and has certainly had problems in the past with major engineering work going seriously over time - remember the Jubilee line upgrades a few years ago.

The national rail network is heavily impacted by influential voices that prevent simplification of services in south and south east London which would increase frequency but also journey times and the need to change. It is no secret that TfL prefers greater standardisation of stopping patterns and would want services on each line to serve one central London terminal to reduce conflicts and increase frequencies. The SRA did a major consultation on the issue and commuters said they preferred present system. However, growing passenger demand may mean in future that the only way to increase capacity is to move towards the TfL model.

Well the last government gave residents in Manchester and other places a referendum on whether they would have an elected Mayor, many said no. A couple years later they decided Manchester should have any elected Mayor despite the referendum response being no.

So what people vote or say they want can simply be ignored if they consider it worth doing.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Cross Rail 2 is a solution to this I think or at least I really hope it is.

Yes but when? I'm 48, retired once but started working again because I was bored. However I do not intend to work past the age of 60 and alas I cannot see Cross Rail 2 being on stream in 12 years time. Would love to be proved wrong though

 

[Mojo]

Well the last government gave residents in Manchester and other places a referendum on whether they would have an elected Mayor, many said no. A couple years later they decided Manchester should have any elected Mayor despite the referendum response being no.

So what people vote or say they want can simply be ignored if they consider it worth doing.

This is not exactly true.

The 2012 referendum asked residents of the City of Manchester if they wanted a directly elected Mayor [supported by a cabinet of appointed Councillors] to run Manchester City Council.

The 2014 proposals are for an elected Mayor for the whole of Greater Manchester (not just the City of Manchester) who would not involve himself with the running of the councils, but would have involvement with the services and strategy that comes from the Greater Manchester Combined Authority.

 

[Abpj17]

It makes good sense for TfL to run the Overground services - certainly worth giving them a go. If they are bad, go to TOCs in a future tender etc. It ought to make for a more integrated and efficient service with the rest of TfL.

 

[bb21]

I have huge respect for the guy, but this episode sits very uneasily with me. With vested interests and a number of other issues involved, he is not in a position to be making impartial public statements. It only makes him appear sneaky and full of agenda.

As some people have already pointed out, TfL are not perfect themselves. There are certainly some very good parts, such as the LU division operationally, but there are also less than desirable aspects, for example, revenue enforcement contractors on LOROL, who in my opinion are worse than those of SouthEastern if some of my experiences are to go by.

SouthEastern as a company are, let's just say, rubbish in many ways and their passengers know that. We don't need to be told that. Thank you, Sir Peter.

Edited to say:

Only this week I got charged two maximum fares for journeys within the maximum journey time as stated on their own website, on two separate occasions. So now I have to go through the faff of ringing the helpline to resolve something which is completely avoidable. Such a call last time took 27 minutes to resolve a simple issue. Yes, the advisors were helpful everytime I had to ring, but I would rather TfL (and their staff) concentrating their effort on their own operations and sorting out their own technical issues rather than launching attacks into another transport operator.

 

[ComUtoR]

..' that they don't actually catch the real criminals!

Who are the "real criminals" ? How many people in this (http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152) forum section have deliberately and knowingly avoided paying their fare ?

Should we not have RPI/REO's ? The fact is that people do not want to pay and are happy for others to subsidize their travel.

They camp around the excess windows of London terminals in the morning, then sit out in Dartford, Greenhithe, Swanley, and Sevenoaks for the rest of the day writing penalty fares for people who get there and try to touch out their Oyster cards.

One of the reasons why they "camp out" are certain locations is because they are where high fare evasion is taking place. Would you prefer they camped out where they were not required and have no impact and would be totally wasted ?

Weirdly this very evening (Thursday) A drunk at Sevenoaks tried to tap out with his oyster. His reaction was that he will simply bin his oyster and get a new one if it charges him. I assume that is somehow Southeasterns fault.

We can't win. If we actively protect our revenue we are over zealous and intimidating and always blatantly wrong. If we leave the gates open and remove RPIs, Guards, CSA's, REO's from the trains then its a free for all.

Last year I attended a meeting where it was discussed that there will be a change towards revenue protection rather revenue support and a reliance on government subsidy this is due to various agreements set out in the Direct Award. Part of that was to employ more gateline staff and ensure the barriers are manned at more locations and SE take a more active role in reducing fare evasion.

If Southeastern are truly **** then pull the franchise.

 

[yorkie]

Who are the "real criminals" ?

People like those referred to by Bishopstone (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=99253) rather than the peple referred to by MikeWh.

How many people in this (http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152) forum section have deliberately and knowingly avoided paying their fare ?

You can try to work it out if you want to know.

Should we not have RPI/REO's ? The fact is that people do not want to pay and are happy for others to subsidise their travel.

Yes, some people do not want to pay and they are the awkward people to deal with. It's more lucrative to go for the easy targets!

One of the reasons why they "camp out" are certain locations is because they are where high fare evasion is taking place.

No, you've not read previous posts have you? Places like Dartford have a high number of mistakes occurring, but fare evasion can be happening anywhere.

Would you prefer they camped out where they were not required and have no impact and would be totally wasted ?

I'd rather they caught people referred to by Bishopstone (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=99253) rather than the peple referred to by MikeWh.

Weirdly this very evening (Thursday) A drunk at Sevenoaks tried to tap out with his oyster. His reaction was that he will simply bin his oyster and get a new one if it charges him. I assume that is somehow Southeasterns fault.

Interesting assumption!

We can't win. If we actively protect our revenue we are over zealous and intimidating and always blatantly wrong. If we leave the gates open and remove RPIs, Guards, CSA's, REO's from the trains then its a free for all.

No middle ground? Really?

Last year I attended a meeting where it was discussed that there will be a change towards revenue protection rather revenue support and a reliance on government subsidy this is due to various agreements set out in the Direct Award. Part of that was to employ more gateline staff and ensure the barriers are manned at more locations and SE take a more active role in reducing fare evasion.

But the reality is as described earlier in this thread.

If Southeastern are truly **** then pull the franchise.

The DfT are unlikely to do that, as that costs them a lot of money. The DfT aren't particularly bothered if people who make mistakes (or some people whose tickets are valid but Southeastern don't like the tickets) are treated in the way described in this thread.

I know many people will naturally want to defend their employer (especially if happy with your salary), but you can't defend the indefensible.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, some people do not want to pay and they are the awkward people to deal with. It's more lucrative to go for the easy targets!

They aren't "easy targets" They try to catch ALL fare evaders.

No, you've not read previous posts have you? Places like Dartford have a high number of mistakes occurring, but fare evasion can be happening anywhere.

Yes but first hand knowledge is that they have targeted blocks because of fare evasion. It is very much a chicken and egg situation.

Who is making the mistake ? Really always SE making these errors ? If your on the wrong ticket then it is your fault and often very very deliberate.

I'd rather they caught people referred to by Bishopstone (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=99253) rather than the peple referred to by MikeWh.

I'd rather take each case on its own merits than constantly blame the TOC. I'd much rather all tickets get checked than none. I'd much rather accept that PEOPLE make mistakes on both sides than have a permanent negative stereotype and prejudice against a TOC

No middle ground? Really?

A worthy discussion indeed. One required for another thread methinks.

But the reality is as described earlier in this thread.

No it isn't. It is a minority of cases that your taking and tarring the TOC with the bog brush. Of the percentage of fare evasion how many cases are like the ones you post. Lets be honest here. It is a tiny percentage because fare evasion is rampant across the railway let alone SE

I know many people will naturally want to defend their employer (especially when in a job that pays a lucrative salary), but you can't defend the indefensible.

Where do you see me defending my employer ? I know how SE treat their customers and I know how its customers treat us.

Indefensible ? Fare evasion is indefensible ? Your having a laugh. Your willing to cast the stone at SE for their mistakes but continually defend fare evasion. I am more than happy to accept PEOPLE make errors. That doesn't mean in any way I am defending my employer.

Oh and what does my salary have to do with it ? Can you clarify that point please.

 

[Taunton]

I have huge respect for the guy, but this episode sits very uneasily with me. With vested interests and a number of other issues involved, he is not in a position to be making impartial public statements. It only makes him appear sneaky and full of agenda.

I think that is wholly incorrect. TfL are responsible for transport across London and Sir Peter is in charge of it. They pay over to SE Trains millions of pounds per month from Oyster and other ticketing, and are doubtless their number one source of revenue. Hendy was appointed by Ken Livingstone and carried on under Boris, and thus has worked under both sides of the political divide, and never has seemed politically one-sided at all.

SE Trains seem to me to be the worst of the suburban train providers within London, and what Sir Peter has said about them needed saying for a long time. I would guess this public statement comes after long and frustrating attempts to do something about them by their normal direct contacts.

 

[ComUtoR]

SE Trains seem to me to be the worst of the suburban train providers within London, and what Sir Peter has said about them needed saying for a long time. I would guess this public statement comes after long and frustrating attempts to do something about them by their normal direct contacts.

A Public statement was already made by Claire Perry.

Personally I think the government took the easy route with the Direct Awards. Once the franchise system got its little shakeup I'm not sure what choice they had.

The government sets what is required in the Direct Award and SE have been taking steps to meet that criteria. From what I understand we are being closely monitored and are in no way safe from losing the franchise.

A point you made about Oyster and millions paid out. How does that sit with smart ticketing ?

 

[NSEFAN]

Which suggests that heavy investment can lead to higher passenger satisfaction (not unlike the London Overground network)

So, it turns out when you invest in a service and make it more reliable and convenient, more people will choose to use it. Who'd have guessed?

If for political reasons the routes have to be merged into TfL's empire before they'll see investment, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That said, this outburst from the head of TfL is childish and unprofessional. The same thing could have been said in a much more diplomatic manner!

 

[yorkie]

If your on the wrong ticket then it is your fault and often very very deliberate.

Gotta love the spin on some of these posts

Your willing to cast the stone at SE for their mistakes but continually defend fare evasion.....

There is no point in continuing this discussion, because that is not what I've said at all, and is not what Sir Peter Hendry has said, and is not what MikeWh has said, and if you're just going to ignore the facts and make things up, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

People can look at the evidence and make their own minds up.

 

[Antman]

Who are the "real criminals" ? How many people in this (http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152) forum section have deliberately and knowingly avoided paying their fare ?

Should we not have RPI/REO's ? The fact is that people do not want to pay and are happy for others to subsidize their travel.



One of the reasons why they "camp out" are certain locations is because they are where high fare evasion is taking place. Would you prefer they camped out where they were not required and have no impact and would be totally wasted ?

Weirdly this very evening (Thursday) A drunk at Sevenoaks tried to tap out with his oyster. His reaction was that he will simply bin his oyster and get a new one if it charges him. I assume that is somehow Southeasterns fault.

We can't win. If we actively protect our revenue we are over zealous and intimidating and always blatantly wrong. If we leave the gates open and remove RPIs, Guards, CSA's, REO's from the trains then its a free for all.

Last year I attended a meeting where it was discussed that there will be a change towards revenue protection rather revenue support and a reliance on government subsidy this is due to various agreements set out in the Direct Award. Part of that was to employ more gateline staff and ensure the barriers are manned at more locations and SE take a more active role in reducing fare evasion.

If Southeastern are truly **** then pull the franchise.

I think we all know the reason they 'camp out' at Dartford is because there are lots of easy targets there. I assume the "drunk at Sevenoaks" had made an innocent mistake? Obviously it is his fault and not Southeasterns but it hardly makes him a criminal.

I will actually defend Southeastern a bit, it seems that nobody else is going too, they're certainly not perfect but generally the services are reasonably reliable and certainly things have improved vastly since the dark days of Connex (wash my mouth out with soap and water) and there are indeed far more gateline staff now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, it turns out when you invest in a service and make it more reliable and convenient, more people will choose to use it. Who'd have guessed?

If for political reasons the routes have to be merged into TfL's empire before they'll see investment, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That said, this outburst from the head of TfL is childish and unprofessional. The same thing could have been said in a much more diplomatic manner!

I couldn't agree more, "childish and unprofessional" sums up Mr Hendy's outburst and he really should be embarrased
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They aren't "easy targets" They try to catch ALL fare evaders.

I have seen it so many times, somebody who is meek mild and placid gets the book thrown at them whilst somebody who is loud lairy and obnoxious gets way with it time and time again:cry:

 

[Aictos]

So, it turns out when you invest in a service and make it more reliable and convenient, more people will choose to use it. Who'd have guessed?

If for political reasons the routes have to be merged into TfL's empire before they'll see investment, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That said, this outburst from the head of TfL is childish and unprofessional. The same thing could have been said in a much more diplomatic manner!

Indeed, there are ways in which you express your views and expressing them in a unprofessional manner considering your position is childish.

He ought look closer at home as his own services at time can be classed as crap.

 

[LLivery]

I to think that when LO takes over more routes, which they will, the novelty of LO will wear off. There are many people who aren't very happy with it as it is and once they take over less contained routes like West Anglia and my bet is that they will get SE in the next government, people will realise that no matter who operates it, the delays will be the same. Furthermore, the idea of higher frequencies is just all well and good in theory but wont happen like they expect.

People have complaints about frequencies on routes with 4tph, for some reason thinking LO would do better. Its just nonsense on such a packed railway. There are London MPs who are seriously saying they want TfL to run suburban services because its not for profit - completely ignoring the fact LO is concession run.

 

[physics34]

ah diddums... people being fined for making a mistake with their tickets......
WELL DONT MAKE MISTAKES WITH YOUR TICKETS THEN!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I to think that when LO takes over more routes, which they will, the novelty of LO will wear off. There are many people who aren't very happy with it as it is and once they take over less contained routes like West Anglia and my bet is that they will get SE in the next government, people will realise that no matter who operates it, the delays will be the same. Furthermore, the idea of higher frequencies is just all well and good in theory but wont happen like they expect.

People have complaints about frequencies on routes with 4tph, for some reason thinking LO would do better. Its just nonsense on such a packed railway. There are London MPs who are seriously saying they want TfL to run suburban services because its not for profit - completely ignoring the fact LO is concession run.

Exactly,

People keep comparing LO to SOuthern/SouthEastern/South West Trains.....

LO network is a simple as they come and the others are as complex as they come!

Chalk and cheese

 

[ComUtoR]

I think we all know the reason they 'camp out' at Dartford is because there are lots of easy targets there. I assume the "drunk at Sevenoaks" had made an innocent mistake? Obviously it is his fault and not Southeasterns but it hardly makes him a criminal.

Nope it doesn't and it appeared (to me) it was genuine. At some point people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

I have seen it so many times, somebody who is meek mild and placid gets the book thrown at them whilst somebody who is loud lairy and obnoxious gets way with it time and time again:cry:

Totally and utterly correct. The police do this all the time too :/ Not exclusive to them either.

 

[Antman]

ah diddums... people being fined for making a mistake with their tickets......
WELL DONT MAKE MISTAKES WITH YOUR TICKETS THEN!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Exactly,

People keep comparing LO to SOuthern/SouthEastern/South West Trains.....

LO network is a simple as they come and the others are as complex as they come!

Chalk and cheese

A somewhat childish posting

So presumably you never make mistakes? Perhaps you could let us lesser mortals in on the secret?

 

[ComUtoR]

There is no point in continuing this discussion, because that is not what I've said at all

And neither am I making the same assumption that all passengers are deliberate avoiding their fare. The FACTS are that people do and oft deliberate. I can accept that some people get caught up in that and are totally genuine. Are you prepared to accept that not all SE are out to get you and also make genuine mistakes.

 

[Greenback]

Totally and utterly correct. The police do this all the time too :/ Not exclusive to them either.

I've seen the reverse as well. I suppose it depends on the situation, the individuals involved, and external factors probably come into play as well.

On the topic in hand, I'm not very impressed with the outburst, and I'm broadly in agreement with what bb21 said earlier