TfL chief Sir Peter Hendy: Southeastern trains into capital are 'sh*t'

[Taunton]

ah diddums... people being fined for making a mistake with their tickets......
WELL DONT MAKE MISTAKES WITH YOUR TICKETS THEN!

I think this attitude is exactly what Sir Peter was referring to in his comments on the approach of the Revenue Inspectors. Is it a quote from the SE Trains staff training guide?

 

[Starmill]

They aren't "easy targets" They try to catch ALL fare evaders.




Yes but first hand knowledge is that they have targeted blocks because of fare evasion. It is very much a chicken and egg situation.

Who is making the mistake ? Really always SE making these errors ? If your on the wrong ticket then it is your fault and often very very deliberate.




I'd rather take each case on its own merits than constantly blame the TOC. I'd much rather all tickets get checked than none. I'd much rather accept that PEOPLE make mistakes on both sides than have a permanent negative stereotype and prejudice against a TOC



A worthy discussion indeed. One required for another thread methinks.




No it isn't. It is a minority of cases that your taking and tarring the TOC with the bog brush. Of the percentage of fare evasion how many cases are like the ones you post. Lets be honest here. It is a tiny percentage because fare evasion is rampant across the railway let alone SE



Where do you see me defending my employer ? I know how SE treat their customers and I know how its customers treat us.

Indefensible ? Fare evasion is indefensible ? Your having a laugh. Your willing to cast the stone at SE for their mistakes but continually defend fare evasion. I am more than happy to accept PEOPLE make errors. That doesn't mean in any way I am defending my employer.

Oh and what does my salary have to do with it ? Can you clarify that point please.

This forum does notendorse fare evasion, I think that's abundatly clear and you should be ashamed of yourself for that acusation.

As to the rest, I think the point is also not too confusing. Southeastern 's revenue policy goes after people who make mistakes, because it requires the least time and effort on their part. In so doing, they lack the resources or focus to challenge those who are systematic thieves of thousands of pounds worth of travel.

I have seen with my own eyes perfectly valid tickets rejected by Southeaster staff purely because they don't like them. We know they will NOT listen to their passengers over this, and there is some evidence to suggest they also do not listen to ATOC or the DfT nor abide by their franchise agreement / the TSA. This is the indefensible. Not forgetting that Dartford is outside the zones.

 

[ComUtoR]

As to the rest, I think the point is also not too confusing. Southeastern 's revenue policy goes after people who make mistakes, because it requires the least time and effort on their part. In so doing, they lack the resources or focus to challenge those who are systematic thieves of thousands of pounds worth of travel.

Were is it policy ? I can personally go and find SE revenue policy and in no way does it state anywhere to go after people who make mistakes. I also have it on good authority about what happens and what the policy is when genuine mistakes happen.

... nor abide by their franchise agreement / the TSA.

They would lose the franchise. That is a very damming statement your making. Feel free to provide that evidence to whomever and I will be behind you 100% If that involves SE losing the franchise.

As previously discussed on this forum. Dartford will be part of the fares zone. I believe the target for that will be 2016

 

[Philip C]

One of the reasons I would feel uncomfortable about TfL taking over parts of South Eastern is that longer distance and suburban services very much share the same tracks on the approaches to both the ex-SER and ex-LCDR termini. This means that every extra suburban train squeezed onto the timetable is likely to be an the expense of timekeeping of, already rather dozy, mainline services. To pass the whole of South Eastern over to TfL would produce a considerable "Democratic Deficit" and there seems no likelihood that either Kent or East Sussex would see benefit in decisions being made on their behalf by TfL.

What has been done by TfL to services on the Metropolitan Line (basically running the off-peak service to all four northern termini as all stations from Wembley Park) gives no comfort whatsoever to those currently "enjoying" limited stop services on outer suburban routes.

Now that South Eastern has finally rid itself of the bane of Thameslink services between Metropolitan Junction and Spa Road, there is hope that its reputation may be on the rise for both suburban and longer distance customers. I cannot see why this cannot be achieved under a single franchise rather than a split franchise of LOROL and "new SE". For the reasons stated above I very much favour this being a non-GLA directed operator.

 

[bramling]

One of the reasons I would feel uncomfortable about TfL taking over parts of South Eastern is that longer distance and suburban services very much share the same tracks on the approaches to both the ex-SER and ex-LCDR termini. This means that every extra suburban train squeezed onto the timetable is likely to be an the expense of timekeeping of, already rather dozy, mainline services. To pass the whole of South Eastern over to TfL would produce a considerable "Democratic Deficit" and there seems no likelihood that either Kent or East Sussex would see benefit in decisions being made on their behalf by TfL.

What has been done by TfL to services on the Metropolitan Line (basically running the off-peak service to all four northern termini as all stations from Wembley Park) gives no comfort whatsoever to those currently "enjoying" limited stop services on outer suburban routes.

Now that South Eastern has finally rid itself of the bane of Thameslink services between Metropolitan Junction and Spa Road, there is hope that its reputation may be on the rise for both suburban and longer distance customers. I cannot see why this cannot be achieved under a single franchise rather than a split franchise of LOROL and "new SE". For the reasons stated above I very much favour this being a non-GLA directed operator.

TfL's project management track record is not perfect either. Modern Railways has carried a number of articles charting the 'progress' of the Sub Surface Lines resignalling, a project which started in the mid-2000s. Ten years on, not a single mile of track has been resignalled and LU is on its third supplier. They have boxed themselves in to a position of only having one supplier, Thales, that will take the job on.

Perhaps Mr Hendy should concentrate more on his existing network than looking to take over new services?

I also think swearing in an interview is unacceptable, it doesn't set a good example from someone who claims to be a leader. The east end of the District Line can feel like the wild west at times too.

 

[Taunton]

One of the reasons I would feel uncomfortable about TfL taking over parts of South Eastern is that longer distance and suburban services very much share the same tracks on the approaches to both the ex-SER and ex-LCDR termini. This means that every extra suburban train squeezed onto the timetable is likely to be an the expense of timekeeping of, already rather dozy, mainline services.

This perception is what TfL have been actually quite good at overcoming. On the North London Line, which I use regularly, they have intensified the service, all on tracks and flat junctions shared with a quantity of freight trains that when I first used it I found frankly surprising, sometimes there's a full sized freight between each passenger service. It could have all gone to maggots operationally, but by not accepting defeat, and getting the right skills, the right people and the right Can-Do attitudes in place all along the way they have managed to interleave a metro-frequency passenger operation with all this heavy freight joining and leaving. They were of course initially told that it was not possible, no more room, etc - in fact I seem to recall that attitude when the half-hourly 2-car diesel service from North Woolwich to Camden Road was started all those years ago.

 

[SF-02]

That's the thing. They are so heavy handed with people who make mistakes (or people who have valid tickets that they don't like) and so desperate to go for easy targets, that they don't actually catch the real criminals!

I refer you to this:

So, of course it took them 4 years to catch that bloke from Stonegate!

Exactly! Target the easy ones making genuine mistakes at Dartford etc as illogically just outside oyster, but do little about the swaths of people without tickets on metro lines, as those people are more likely to be anti-social. Maybe that's what Hendy means when he calls trains the wild west - metro routes with many avoiding fares and treating the trains like dirt. Never seen these 'gestapo' tactics but if they do happen then on metro routes is where they would be needed! It's a tough job there for RPIs with difficult people and hearing BS all the time.

Fare avoidance is so embedded in the culture for many across SE london & Kent routes you would need more station staff to man all stations at all times to prevent it, and only TfL have shown willingness to do that. SE, under the direction of the DfT, have not for many years. It would also require rebuilding stations a la London Overground as a few stations have barriered exits but then side gates rendering them a waste of time. Again the DfT don't seem willing to fund station alterations to fix that.

 

[Via Bank]

ah diddums... people being fined for making a mistake with their tickets......
WELL DONT MAKE MISTAKES WITH YOUR TICKETS THEN!

Perhaps if certain Train Operators did not make it extremely difficult to find out (for instance) the boundary of acceptance for Oyster/Contactless, or actually demonstrated an interest in making sure that Oyster validators and ticket machines were actually working during running hours and accepting all relevant payment methods, or ensuring the relevant staff were properly trained in routing and the range of fares available, a lot of these "mistakes" would be avoided.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Perhaps Mr Hendy should concentrate more on his existing network than looking to take over new services?

TfL publicly criticising a DfT franchise is not good form.
DfT fund a big chunk of TfL services and there are big joint projects on the go (not least Crossrail and GOBLIN electrification).
You don't find the DfT TOCs criticising each other, however deserved.
They know the risks to their business in doing so.
What if Govia or Stagecoach (operators of SE/SR/SW) win the next LO concession?

On fares, it's Oyster versus RSP, and for good or ill Oyster is still winning.
Wherever you draw the boundary there are bound to be cross-border issues - this year Dartford, next year Watford, then Slough and Reading.
Just wait until the PTEs all have their own smart cards and zonal ticketing systems for rail.

I haven't looked, but does TfL publish financial results for LO or any other parts of its network?
We know how Govia is performing on its DfT franchises, but how about LO?
The extra services, new trains and extra staffing come at a cost.
Nobody ever seems to analyse the cost side of the TfL operation, they just say it's "better" than what went before.
Because of Oyster and the zonal system I doubt they can disentangle the LO costs/benefits from London as a whole.

 

[Philip C]

SE metro routes serve many deprived and grim areas. Areas with much of the cheapest housing in London and the home counties. Not many city high flyers there. Mainly admin or retail workers on 15-30k priced out of London by very high house prices so forced to move out to the cheapest areas in London or surrounds then travel in, and not by choice, as employment is centralised.

Finding it amusing you think city high flyers live in Gravesend, or Dartford, Welling, Abbey Wood, Gillingham, Swanley, Lewisham, Sidcup, Catford etc etc. Shows a big ignorance of London and its society & economy. Not many high flyers seen in metro served areas except in some small enclaves which are vastly outnumbered by poor towns and estates.

I'm not sure that this is leading us anywhere, but there are also many most presentable areas served by South Eastern Metro routes. I'd begin my list with all stations between Elmstead Woods and Sevenoaks (incl.), Blackheath, Dulwich, Bromley area, Hayes and there may be more. I'd be very happy to own a property in any of these places, mind you I'd probably also sell it and move somewhere less metropolitan! For what it may be worth I find SE London to be a fairly average mix, probably more affluent on the whole than NE London, not as leafy as SW London and on a par with NW London.

Yes there are "grim and deprived" areas but that is by no means the general case for this area.

 

[455driver]

Well said Sir Peter - someone who both tells it like it is and also has a better understanding of transport economics and operation than just about anybody.

Is it April 1st? :roll:

 

[theageofthetra]

If TFL took over SE metro services would passengers still be able to buy point to point seasons or will they be forced to buy more expensive z1-6 z1-4 etc zonal tickets?

 

[bb21]

I think that is wholly incorrect. TfL are responsible for transport across London and Sir Peter is in charge of it. They pay over to SE Trains millions of pounds per month from Oyster and other ticketing, and are doubtless their number one source of revenue. Hendy was appointed by Ken Livingstone and carried on under Boris, and thus has worked under both sides of the political divide, and never has seemed politically one-sided at all.

SE Trains seem to me to be the worst of the suburban train providers within London, and what Sir Peter has said about them needed saying for a long time. I would guess this public statement comes after long and frustrating attempts to do something about them by their normal direct contacts.

I think you completely misunderstood me.

I was not passing judgement on his past records, but trying to point out that given his role within TfL and the vested interests such a role entails, he is not in a position to comment impartially, or be seen as doing so. Sometimes when you are in a prominent position, you cannot simply blurt out whatever is going through in your head.

If there were past dialogues with SouthEastern and it had not been productive, do you really think going to the gutter press and slagging of the other party is going to be constructive? Perhaps, as someone else has already commented, SouthEastern were merely doing what the DfT instructed them to do. If Sir Peter had a problem with the quality of services provided, he should speak to the DfT. Would he have openly criticise the DfT in this manner because they didn't specify a 5-minute frequency on suburban routes and still refuse to do so?

Unprofessional and hugely disappointing.

I also don't know what fares revenue has to do with all this. SouthEastern provide a service, they get their share of the revenue accordingly. They are not getting more than their own share.

 

[LateThanNever]

I think you completely misunderstood me.

I was not passing judgement on his past records, but trying to point out that given his role within TfL and the vested interests such a role entails, he is not in a position to comment impartially, or be seen as doing so. Sometimes when you are in a prominent position, you cannot simply blurt out whatever is going through in your head.

If there were past dialogues with SouthEastern and it had not been productive, do you really think going to the gutter press and slagging of the other party is going to be constructive? Perhaps, as someone else has already commented, SouthEastern were merely doing what the DfT instructed them to do. If Sir Peter had a problem with the quality of services provided, he should speak to the DfT. Would he have openly criticise the DfT in this manner because they didn't specify a 5-minute frequency on suburban routes and still refuse to do so?

Unprofessional and hugely disappointing.

I also don't know what fares revenue has to do with all this. SouthEastern provide a service, they get their share of the revenue accordingly. They are not getting more than their own share.

I reckon that's the first time Management Today will have been described as the "gutter press"!!

 

[bb21]

I reckon that's the first time Management Today will have been described as the "gutter press"!!

Haha you know what I meant.

 

[JaJaWa]

Boris Johnson "profoundly agrees" https://vimeo.com/125905153

 

[DY444]

In my opinon SE's conduct in issuing PFs at London Bridge to people without the OEP set was one of the most underhand and disgusting tactics I have ever seen employed by any company. That left a very nasty taste indeed.

Yes TFL has a number of problems and its operations are far from perfect, and yes too many of the LO RPIs don't seem to be able to get it into their thick skulls that LOROL is a national rail TOC and not some extension of London Underground but that is ignorance and bad training not company policy like the South Eastern OEP rip off was.

Hendy is right. Some of the London commuter TOCs are dreadful and South Eastern is right down there with the worst.

 

[Via Bank]

Hendy's comments may be crass, but they certainly reflect public opinion. Passengers on mainline services are consistently paying more, for (especially on SE, and other south London TOCs operated by Govia) a significantly poorer level of service, and a consistently poor communication and compensation policy in the event of delay.

 

[infobleep]

This is not exactly true.

The 2012 referendum asked residents of the City of Manchester if they wanted a directly elected Mayor [supported by a cabinet of appointed Councillors] to run Manchester City Council.

The 2014 proposals are for an elected Mayor for the whole of Greater Manchester (not just the City of Manchester) who would not involve himself with the running of the councils, but would have involvement with the services and strategy that comes from the Greater Manchester Combined Authority.

OK. Why weren't the residents of greater Manchester given a referendum then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They aren't "easy targets" They try to catch ALL fare evaders.




Yes but first hand knowledge is that they have targeted blocks because of fare evasion. It is very much a chicken and egg situation.

Who is making the mistake ? Really always SE making these errors ? If your on the wrong ticket then it is your fault and often very very deliberate.




I'd rather take each case on its own merits than constantly blame the TOC. I'd much rather all tickets get checked than none. I'd much rather accept that PEOPLE make mistakes on both sides than have a permanent negative stereotype and prejudice against a TOC



A worthy discussion indeed. One required for another thread methinks.




No it isn't. It is a minority of cases that your taking and tarring the TOC with the bog brush. Of the percentage of fare evasion how many cases are like the ones you post. Lets be honest here. It is a tiny percentage because fare evasion is rampant across the railway let alone SE



Where do you see me defending my employer ? I know how SE treat their customers and I know how its customers treat us.

Indefensible ? Fare evasion is indefensible ? Your having a laugh. Your willing to cast the stone at SE for their mistakes but continually defend fare evasion. I am more than happy to accept PEOPLE make errors. That doesn't mean in any way I am defending my employer.

Oh and what does my salary have to do with it ? Can you clarify that point please.

If staff make a mistake I don't seem them being issued a monetary penalty. I wouldn't want to see it either but they issue then to passengers and if we want to accept all sides make mistakes perhaps we should have a system that affects all sides equally. I actually don't want time. Just exploring the idea publicly.

If fare envision is rampant, then may be more stations need to be gated.

On South West Trains network I think I have an idea of when and where might be the best places to avoid paying fares. I've not tried it though and may be if I did I'd find it wasn't actually the case.

For example at certain times of the day Guildford station back entrance isn't manned. At night even the front entrance isn't always manned. On Sundays it's the case earlier in the evening but not all day.

May be at these times there are more revenue staff on trains. There are stations towards London and within London where no gate lines. Perhaps these stations get manned more or they know fare dodgers don't want to visit these places.


Hinchley Wood and Berrylands don't have gate lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TfL publicly criticising a DfT franchise is not good form.
DfT fund a big chunk of TfL services and there are big joint projects on the go (not least Crossrail and GOBLIN electrification).
You don't find the DfT TOCs criticising each other, however deserved.
They know the risks to their business in doing so.
What if Govia or Stagecoach (operators of SE/SR/SW) win the next LO concession?

On fares, it's Oyster versus RSP, and for good or ill Oyster is still winning.
Wherever you draw the boundary there are bound to be cross-border issues - this year Dartford, next year Watford, then Slough and Reading.
Just wait until the PTEs all have their own smart cards and zonal ticketing systems for rail.

I haven't looked, but does TfL publish financial results for LO or any other parts of its network?
We know how Govia is performing on its DfT franchises, but how about LO?
The extra services, new trains and extra staffing come at a cost.
Nobody ever seems to analyse the cost side of the TfL operation, they just say it's "better" than what went before.
Because of Oyster and the zonal system I doubt they can disentangle the LO costs/benefits from London as a whole.

When it comes to. awarding contracts, in the area I work, you have to weight price higher than other areas.

If it's the case on the railways it could be that a company who are not so good win.

 

[bb21]

and a consistently poor communication and compensation policy in the event of delay.

Are they?

I thought SouthEastern compensate you for any delay over 30 minutes, while LOROL only if they were caused by issues within their control.

 

[Via Bank]

Are they?

I thought SouthEastern compensate you for any delay over 30 minutes, while LOROL only if they were caused by issues within their control.

you're right about TfL only compensating for delays within their control. And LOROL is the exception amongst TfL services in that the threshold is 30 minutes (for all others it is 15. I would expect this to change before too much longer, perhaps with the new concession.)

Personal experience, however, indicates that TfL are significantly more proactive in issuing compensation. I've been pleasantly surprised by automatic refunds when travelling on PAYG, and when using a paper ticket or a NR smartcard season they will happily pay your money into a nominated bank account, rather than issuing RTVs which are increasingly difficult to use (and can only be used for more train travel in any case.) I have also found requests to be processed significantly faster by TfL (usually within the week.)

 

[Fincra5]

Was it the TOC's, way back when, that decided on Penalty Fare areas in the old NSE area? Or was it the DFT, or even further back?

 

[bb21]

I believe that threshold for LU is increasing to 30 minutes, although that is only off the grapevine.

I don't know anything about automatic delay compensation, as I have always had to apply for mine, although I have had a couple of "administrative refunds" for no apparent reason from TfL, whatever they were for.

 

[bicbasher]

I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet that TfL were interested in both the West Anglia and Southeastern Metro services.

They only got West Anglia after concerns from Kent MP's and Kent CC about a reduction in service of mainline services.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Was it the TOC's, way back when, that decided on Penalty Fare areas in the old NSE area? Or was it the DFT, or even further back?

I understand that NSE created some, and that TOCs are free to apply for more (and that some have, e.g. EMT)

 

[theageofthetra]

The anti London thing in Kent, particular in Bromley goes back to the days of Red Ken & GLC when the far-left controlled it, ILEA etc. That Tony Blair sent both his boys to a Bromley Grammar school is worth noting.

 

[Mojo]

The anti London thing in Kent, particular in Bromley goes back to the days of Red Ken & GLC when the far-left controlled it, ILEA etc. That Tony Blair sent both his boys to a Bromley Grammar school is worth noting.

I thought Bromley was in London? I believe the objections actually came from the county of Kent.

 

[Jonny]

Anyone want to try to get to High Barnet on a Z1 ticket, then demand a refund for the mistake? You can use this article as proof - "but your boss says so!"

I think they would say "that's not what he meant" - he was talking about smartcards, a Z1 ticket would be a paper ticket.

 

[bicbasher]

I thought Bromley was in London? I believe the objections actually came from the county of Kent.

It has been since 1965. The council did object to Fares Fair as at that time London Underground didn't serve the borough and their taxpayers were subsidising them.

Bromley under TfL now have rail services from Tramlink and London Overground in the west of the borough.

 

[tsr]

Personal experience, however, indicates that TfL are significantly more proactive in issuing compensation. I've been pleasantly surprised by automatic refunds when travelling on PAYG, and when using a paper ticket or a NR smartcard season they will happily pay your money into a nominated bank account, rather than issuing RTVs which are increasingly difficult to use (and can only be used for more train travel in any case.)

I would strongly suggest more TOCs should do what Southern do and allow RTVs to be cashed at ticket offices. Also, it may help a lot of passengers (as well as TOC PR) to publicise that RTVs can be spent on almost anything railway related, including most onboard services.