Penalty fare issued 15 seconds into journey as asking for ticket

[DaleCooper]

So neurons all over your brain, clearly.

The first part of that quote isn't from najaB but from you, you should have made that clear.

As for your comment, am I the only one not to understand it?

 

[najaB]

So neurons all over your brain, clearly.

Uhm... yes, there are neurons in my brain. Not quite sure what the point of that statement is. :-?

 

[Parham Wood]

It says To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.
That's it. You must.

It then says If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

Not 'unable to do so before boarding the train on which you wish to travel', just 'unable to do so'.
'Unable' means 'no facility to do so, or no capability to do so', not 'no time to do so'.

It then says 'If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.

The point about 'unable' being relevant again here.

I agree but the point I was making was that the second and third paragraphs say "if unable to do so....." and someone could just interpret this as overriding the must in the first paragraph e.g. just being too late to buy a ticket. A bit pedantic I admit and not the way I would read it.

 

[jon0844]

I read it very clear as you must buy a ticket at a station. If you can't, get a permit. If you can't, THEN you can buy on the train or at your destination.

The wording is actually pretty clear, which is perhaps quite unique for the railway!

It's unfortunate that so many permit to travel machines have been removed over the years. They do serve a useful purpose. Indeed, to stop people from claiming to have started at a closer station, I'm surprised that they aren't used to issue free permits just as a proof of where you started from (and when).

 

[34D]

I provided a link earlier in the thread the relevant part is:

How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.


The keyword being unable of course.
I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.

Another relevant part of that page is:

The Penalty Fares System is designed to protect [sic ]the majority of customers from the minority of people who travel without a valid ticket for the journey they are making.


The direct inference is that the RP believed I was in fact not going to pay but for his intercession. Or possibly he simply has targets to meet.

I am just being called a liar and am subsidising genuine fare-dodgers.

On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!

A dictionary definition of 'unable' is:

"lacking the necessary power, competence, etc., to accomplish some specified act: He was unable to swim."

 

[wellwhatitis]

It seems to me the problem, on some TOCs at least, is that the regular conductors are happy to sell tickets on the train. This may be due to either or both of them getting commission on the tickets, or that they want to avoid a confrontation when they have no backup.

Then when there happen to be RPIs on the train, passengers who are accustomed to buying a ticket suddenly find they are being "penalised".

Perhaps it would be better described as an "on-board booking fee"?

I always sell tickets but flip the ticket over upon issue and point out the Penalty Fare warning on the back. There are many passengers who board my trains at stations with ticket buying facilities every day and probably only end up buying a ticket when I'm on as many of my colleagues don't bother. Even if I see them 3 days in a row and sell them the same ticket, I still show them the warning. Many of them smile or sneer when I do so, but I don't want them trotting the above scenario out on here when they do eventually get PF'd. I like to know that I've informed people so that they are making an informed choice when they choose to fare dodge.

If I do encounter such people I e mail the Revenue Protection team with the info and it's up to them if they want to target that train. As a guard this is all you can really do.

 

[DeeGee]

If the wording of a condition depends on a word, the definition of which is suffifciently vague that it is worthy of discussion on an internet forum, then, in my genuine opinion, it should not be used to enforce a rule.

It says that if you are UNABLE to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, you will be able to buy on board.

We are discussing the meaning of the word UNABLE. If I arrive at a station and want to get a train that is about to leave the station, am I able to buy a ticket for that train at the ticket office?

The wording on the posters is much clearer, but many people now use NRE as the definitive source of info.

Yes, the PF was correctly issued, but I'm not surprised by the OP's interpretation at all.

 

[NSEFAN]

Perhaps the addition of a single line is all that's required. Something like, "You must leave sufficient time to purchase your ticket from the facilities at the station, where these exist." Obviously this is still a bit vague but the intention is to reinforce the idea that passengers must always use the ticket facilities at the station as a first point of call, unless otherwise authorised to purchase at a later opportunity.

 

[furlong]

I always sell tickets but flip the ticket over upon issue and point out the Penalty Fare warning on the back.

And I trust that all your colleagues do the same. You don't want passengers to be winning appeals against Penalty Fares because they were not warned!

Selling tickets on penalty fares trains
4.34 The basic principle of any penalty fares scheme is that passengers must buy their tickets before they get on their train. If passengers find that they can buy their ticket on the train from the conductor or guard, it undermines this message. For this reason, we will not allow tickets to be sold on penalty fares trains unless either:
a) the on-train staff are trained as, and act as, authorised collectors, so they can charge a penalty fare to any passenger who is liable for one; or
b) the on-train staff issue a printed penalty fares warning, as well as a ticket, to any passenger who is liable to a penalty fare, and draw the passenger’s attention to the warning.
In the case of (b), on-train staff must be given suitable training (and, when necessary, refresher training) in how the penalty fares scheme works, and how to issue these penalty fares warnings. A system must also be in place to make sure that on-train staff use the warnings properly. Where the warnings are issued using a portable ticket machine, such as ‘SPORTIS’, machine print-outs might be used to check that staff are issuing them. Any system must make sure that each individual conductor or guard is regularly monitored.

Are you and your colleagues regularly monitored as required?

 

[wellwhatitis]

And I trust that all your colleagues do the same. You don't want passengers to be winning appeals against Penalty Fares because they were not warned!



Are you and your colleagues regularly monitored as required?

That I couldn't tell you. In my 2 years so far no manager has raised any of this with me. I am doing what I was trained to do in my initial retail training and I tend to leave the others to do whatever they wish. I fear that many people PF'd where I work frequently win appeals due to poor monitoring and application of procedures out of my control.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Perhaps the addition of a single line is all that's required. Something like, "You must leave sufficient time to purchase your ticket from the facilities at the station, where these exist." Obviously this is still a bit vague but the intention is to reinforce the idea that passengers must always use the ticket facilities at the station as a first point of call, unless otherwise authorised to purchase at a later opportunity.

I think it is time to start thinking about actually setting a time. Say 10 minutes before departure to allow time to buy tickets. Busy stations that often have delays could use a 'take a number' system as some stations abroad do so people could prove what time they arrived.

It would encourage firms to deal with the problem of long queues and help avoid people getting unfairly PFed.

 

[Flamingo]

I think it is time to start thinking about actually setting a time. Say 10 minutes before departure to allow time to buy tickets. Busy stations that often have delays could use a 'take a number' system as some stations abroad do so people could prove what time they arrived.

It would encourage firms to deal with the problem of long queues and help avoid people getting unfairly PFed.

In this case, however, the OP was not unfairly issued a PF. They did not make any attempt to buy before boarding.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

In this case, however, the OP was not unfairly issued a PF. They did not make any attempt to buy before boarding.

True, I was making a general point.

Although if they could specifically advertise that you should allow 10 minutes before your train departs to buy a ticket, it would make the "I was running late" argument even less valid.

 

[Dhassell]

Tbh ive seen many a people get onto a train at Bradford without a ticket and be able to buy one on the train

 

[najaB]

Tbh ive seen many a people get onto a train at Bradford without a ticket and be able to buy one on the train

Is that on FGW services?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Tbh ive seen many a people get onto a train at Bradford without a ticket and be able to buy one on the train

Yes, a lot of conductors use discretion/simply can't be bothered to face a confrontation (can't blame them a lot of the time) which as per another thread does lead to inconsistency and why many people who do it once and are allowed to buy a ticket then get so surprised and annoyed when the next time they get a PF.

 

[island]

Yes, a lot of conductors use discretion/simply can't be bothered to face a confrontation (can't blame them a lot of the time) which as per another thread does lead to inconsistency and why many people who do it once and are allowed to buy a ticket then get so surprised and annoyed when the next time they get a PF.

Since passengers sold tickets on board a Penalty Fares train are issued printed Penalty Fares warnings, there should not be any surprise if the passenger is seen by an Authorised Collector next time around.

 

[fowler9]

I was wondering if not having enough time to buy a ticket before boarding is not a valid reason then surely the TOC would have to state what a suitable time to buy a ticket before travelling is, ie tell people if you don't turn up at least 5 mins before travel you have no leg to stand on. It would of course be hard to enforce and a massive pain in the bum.

 

[island]

They do it at Belfast Central for international trains.

 

[timbo58]

If you allow staff to have discretion you will get some accusations of 'inconsistency' however well you train them, that's intrinsic in my opinion.

The accusation is made here since it appears an RPI (not a normal guard) issued the PF and those are few & far between according to regular staff.

To claim 'inconsistency' as a sign of unfairness in this case would be akin to claiming it every time someone is prosecuted for anything, since it is a fair bet someone else has managed not to be prosecuted for the same offence previously (and is probably quite capable of crowing about it loudly too!)

BOA has one entrance/exit, to join a Bristol bound train you must pass within a maximum of 10 feet of the ticket office & machine by crossing the footbridge.

The booking office is on the RH side, the gate by the steps for the over bridge.
There are signs on the end of the building and the over bridge and the opposite (Bristol bound) platform IIRC.

http://www.kennetcottage.co.uk/images/railway station 550.jpg

The previous stops are both PF stations -Trowbridge & Westbury by the way, meaning a theoretical claim of doing at a non PF station wouldn't work anyway, it'd just be a higher PF if believed, and a report for prosecution if not.

Anyone thinking seriously that false claims are a good way to avoid a PF are deluded as previous posters have made clear.

 

[Flamingo]

Guards can't issue PF's, only RPI's, and they are relatively few and far between...

 

[edwin_m]

BOA has one entrance/exit, to join a Bristol bound train you must pass within a maximum of 10 feet of the ticket office & machine by crossing the footbridge.

The booking office is on the RH side, the gate by the steps for the over bridge.
There are signs on the end of the building and the over bridge and the opposite (Bristol bound) platform IIRC.

In my experience, if the booking office is open the side gate is locked and anyone arriving from the town has to go past the ticket window. When there is no booking clerk present the building is locked up and the side gate, right next to the ticket machine, is open. So it would be pretty difficult to arrive from the direction of the town without seeing some ticket issuing facility.

However, there is now a second entrance directly onto the Bristol-bound platform from a new street, which Google hasn't yet honoured with an entry on its maps. This is the only step-free access to that platform, and someone unable to use the footbridge would have quite a long trek to get to the booking office or ticket machine and back via the road overbridge. Last time I was there (some months ago) there was no ticket machine by this entrance.

 

[dharkhig]

Since passengers sold tickets on board a Penalty Fares train are issued printed Penalty Fares warnings, there should not be any surprise if the passenger is seen by an Authorised Collector next time around.

I frequently travel this line (from Westbury) in the mornings, and FGW staff are always happy to sell tickets on board, regardless of origin station. There are some passengers I have noticed getting on at Westbury who always buy their tickets on the train, despite the station having two ticket machines and a ticket office.

Having noticed this, I have on a couple of occasions done this myself (when running late) and certainly was never issued with any kind of warning, printed or verbal!

 

[RJ]

Those staff are probably given a financial incentive to collect revenue for the company so will happily sell you a ticket on board. It's better than losing all the revenue from stations with no facilities. The problem is when the train serves stations with ticket issuing facilities. FGW are putting out mixed messages - staff cheerfully selling tickets on board to everyone regardless of boarding station, yet also operating a Penalty Fare scheme.

It's a bit more simple here in London where most of the trains are DOO and most stations have facilities. But in FGW land, it's a small wonder passengers get confused.

 

[Via Bank]

Those staff are probably given a financial incentive to collect revenue for the company so will happily sell you a ticket on board. It's better than losing all the revenue from stations with no facilities. The problem is when the train serves stations with ticket issuing facilities. FGW are putting out mixed messages - staff cheerfully selling tickets on board to everyone regardless of boarding station, yet also operating a Penalty Fare scheme. It's a small wonder passengers get confused.

FGW's PF scheme is particularly fun on some stations on the North Downs route, where there are machines but they only accept cards. There are still the signs up saying if you get on the train without buying a ticket you're liable for a PF - so someone unfamiliar with the train could easily interpret that as 'you cannot pay by cash.' Of course, on the trains themselves, Guards still come through, merrily selling tickets and accepting both cash and cards.

(Incidentally, the excuse they give for the TVMs not taking cash is "vandalism." But I have trouble believing North Camp and Blackwater have more of a vandalism problem than, say, Ash Vale, Camberley or Frimley, all of which have TVMs that take cash and card.)

 

[WelshBluebird]

FGW's PF scheme is particularly fun on some stations on the North Downs route, where there are machines but they only accept cards. There are still the signs up saying if you get on the train without buying a ticket you're liable for a PF - so someone unfamiliar with the train could easily interpret that as 'you cannot pay by cash.' Of course, on the trains themselves, Guards still come through, merrily selling tickets and accepting both cash and cards.

(Incidentally, the excuse they give for the TVMs not taking cash is "vandalism." But I have trouble believing North Camp and Blackwater have more of a vandalism problem than, say, Ash Vale, Camberley or Frimley, all of which have TVMs that take cash and card.)

Even better are Keynsham and Oldfield park stations. Both penalty fare stations and both have very clear warnings about it. Except that neither have ticket machines or a ticket office, and are only manned from a tiny booth for a couple of hours in the morning peaks.

 

[FenMan]

(Incidentally, the excuse they give for the TVMs not taking cash is "vandalism." But I have trouble believing North Camp and Blackwater have more of a vandalism problem than, say, Ash Vale, Camberley or Frimley, all of which have TVMs that take cash and card.)

When Blackwater had a cash TVM it was completely demolished in a ram raid.

Getting back to the point about FGW sending out conflicting signals - while guards on the North Downs Line are happy to sell the full range of tickets there are also frequent revenue stings that catch out quite a few.

I'm wondering if, in this case, there was a problem with the attitude test?

 

[Clip]

Guards can't issue PF's, only RPI's, and they are relatively few and far between...

Come on Flamingo - I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time you've said it now but they're just not listening

(Incidentally, the excuse they give for the TVMs not taking cash is "vandalism." But I have trouble believing North Camp and Blackwater have more of a vandalism problem than, say, Ash Vale, Camberley or Frimley, all of which have TVMs that take cash and card.)

You would be surprised just how far and which stations thieves target with the idea of there being more cash in one than another - just look at all the places that got done in Buck and Oxfordshire a while back.

 

[Flamingo]

Come on Flamingo - I think this is the 2nd or 3rd time you've said it now but they're just not listening
.

I know, but when I put it in large text for the hard of thinking, they then complain to the site mods that I'm shouting at them...

 

[Clip]

heh heh heh

Still though Im surprised this got to so many pages - the OP was in the wrong and that should be that really.