End of SWT Franchise?

[JonathanH]

There's no need for more than a 5 car between poole and Weymouth and I think most people would rather have a 5 car 444 than a 8 car 450 ( which can go Poole to Weymouth)

Trains won't attach or detach at Poole as the curvature of the platforms is too great.

I see Bournemouth largely just cut and pasted the press releases from the dft and stagecoach in their article with a throwaway comment from an mp.

Drax is dreaming if he thinks Weymouth to Waterloo could be a two hour journey without some vast infrastructure upgrades. No doubt he'd want it to stop at wool next to his house as well.

I do agree with him though that the Weymouth to London line is very slow and cutting out some station stops on one hourly service with some sensible line speed upgrades, better pathing and reduced padding in the timetable would shave off some time.

Waterloo, southampton airport, Southampton central, Bournemouth, Poole Dorchester south, Weymouth would be a good start.

That doesn't work because it would catch up the other half hourly service. The current timetable puts frequency for all passengers above speed for some.

 

[AndyY]

I just hope the offer of 6 free weekend passes for annual season ticket holders will not be affected. Hopefully we will still get them when buying new season tickets.

 

[fandroid]

I'm not sure about timing from paddingron, though have a single line worked by token around maiden Newton wouldn't help.

However, it's not just Weymouth which is the issue here, Poole/bournemouth and Southampton all have a woefully slow service to London and they are two large population conurbations.

I really don't know what you mean by 'woefully slow'. The fast train from Southampton to Waterloo (and it runs all through the day as well as at the peaks) takes 1hr 17 mins. Those of us nearer London (Basingstoke) are thoroughly p*ssed off seeing that train flashing through, even when it's almost empty in the late evening (!), just when we have a 20 minute gap between trains. The SWT main line is not a West Coast or East Coast with several hundred miles to go. It's a London & South East service, with lots of intermediate towns of considerable population. Many people moan and groan about the GW main line and the fact that it's slower to Bristol than it was. Just like the SW main line it now provides a great service between all those intermediate towns, as well as good service to London.

Having said that, I do wonder if the SW main line speed could not be raised to 125 mph between Woking and Eastleigh, but that almost certainly depends on conversion to 25kv rather than dear old third rail.

 

[Carlisle]

The fast train from Southampton to Waterloo (and it runs all through the day as well as at the peaks) takes 1hr 17 mins. .

That's 10 minutes slower than 20 years ago so hardly fantastic progress

 

[Monty]

Having said that, I do wonder if the SW main line speed could not be raised to 125 mph between Woking and Eastleigh, but that almost certainly depends on conversion to 25kv rather than dear old third rail.

The line would need completely resignalling in addition to conversion to 25kv. Also the section between Basingstoke and Southampton is mainly dual track apart from a few places such as Wallers Ash and Eastleigh and there are already serious capacity issues. I fear raising the line speeds to 125mph will only make matters worse, you would need to give serious consideration to quad tracking large parts of the route in order to obtain significant lines speed increases.

 

[fandroid]

That's 10 minutes slower than 20 years ago so hardly fantastic progress

It's still not 'woefully slow'. Folk should try the direct service from Basingstoke to Portsmouth Harbour for an opportunity to lose the will to live. 49 miles in 1 hr 20 mins. Average speed 37 mph. And that's on a route with parallel motorways for just about the whole length! I know it serves as the 'local' from Eastleigh onwards, but that just shows how the public transport in South Hampshire really does need sorting out.

 

[Carlisle]

. just shows how the public transport in South Hampshire really does need sorting out.

They were on about converting the Fareham-Southampton line to an LRT system for years, but of course like so much else nothing came of it

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It's still not 'woefully slow'. Folk should try the direct service from Basingstoke to Portsmouth Harbour for an opportunity to lose the will to live. 49 miles in 1 hr 20 mins. Average speed 37 mph. And that's on a route with parallel motorways for just about the whole length! I know it serves as the 'local' from Eastleigh onwards, but that just shows how the public transport in South Hampshire really does need sorting out.

Other examples of the timetable going backwards are:

Waterloo - Bournemouth which used to be around the 95-100' for 108 miles, with just stops at Southampton Airport, Southampton & Bournemouth, before going all shacks to Weymouth (91), none of this Woking, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Southampton, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth to placate the Tory nobs who've moved from London to Hampshire & Dorset.

Waterloo - Portsmouth Hbr used to be 87', now it's 95-120', with god darn awful train planning where a fast (xx30 x Waterloo) follows Haslemere (xx15 x Waterloo) stopper from Guildford by just 12', needless to say the fast will catch the stopper up by Milford and then crawl signal to signal to Haslemere and then get stopped again at Havant, because SN can't do a decent service across the coastway.

Waterloo - Guildford via Cobham used to be 50-55' now 60-70'. Because it now follows a Shepperton in all the way in from New Malden, because the train planners advanced the departure time from Surbiton by 1-2' to "aid performance". That just makes me laugh my gonads off when I see it on Blackberry's that delays of 10' due to congestion in the Wimbledon area and trains missing out stops to compensate.

Guildford Cobhams used to be fast from Wimbledon - Waterloo, then they added Clapham, then they added Vauxhall & finally Earlsfield. So it's hardly surprising that it doesn't work! When in the past the Cobham would stop Wimbledon, the next one would stop at Earlsfield, Clapham & Vauxhall or Clapham & Vauxhall only.

Same applies to Guildford via Woking (Now Woking bays) they did the same as Cobhams.

There's simply no need to stop everything everywhere. Trains are meant to be fast and efficient and SW's are not anymore. The slightest knock and the system collapses, like a house of cards in a breeze!

Time to go back to the past to see how it was done and yes the SW Division did just as many trains then as now and at times more and the journey times were considerably better.

And what makes me cringe is that now, there are so many problems between Waterloo - Weymouth & between Waterloo - Salisbury/Exeter that trains are getting more & more delayed.

It's not about quantity, it's about the quality of service!

So if you have a choice of having a service which will:

Have loads & loads of trains, but slower journey times & falls to bits at the slightest knock or..

Have less frequency, longer trains, faster journey times and more resilience.

Which would you choose?

 

[455driver]

Cue lots of froth about trains being a different livery while in the real world human beings contemplate TUPE, DOO and P45.

Well you have to get your priorities right!

 

[HH]

Other examples of the timetable going backwards are:

Just what I was saying earlier. They made the timetable such that they met PPM targets; customers got a lousy deal. But, we can see here that the tactic obviously worked - most people are blissfully unaware of how they've been stitched up.

 

[yorksrob]

Frankly, so long as train services run early and late enough in the day, have a reasonable frequency and are run with workable connections, I hardly think a bit of timetable padding is the end of the world.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Frankly, so long as train services run early and late enough in the day, have a reasonable frequency and are run with workable connections, I hardly think a bit of timetable padding is the end of the world.

There's padding and there's padding. In SWs case it's more like an inflatable mattress, yes you do need some padding for pathing & maintenance issues, but it has become excessive in many cases and needs to be reduced.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm really rather hoping Stagecoach get re-awarded this even after the tender process, but the fact that the direct award has been removed does not fill me with confidence. I use most of London's TOCs periodically and I have found SWT to be one of the better ones, without doubt.

 

[dgl]

Anyone that can make 458's reliable is a good operator and deserves to keep the franchise

 

[DannyW27]

Hampshire has the lowest spending per head on it's railway in the country, yet it is some of the most busiest so I just hope there is new services, and refurbishment of the Desiro which are very quickly appearing to look run down.

 

[infobleep]

I was told the reason for padding on a Sunday was that if they didn't have it the timetable would have to be amended far more often.

There is a lot of padding between Fratton and Portsmouth Harbour. Less so into Waterloo it seems.

 

[Helvellyn]

I was told the reason for padding on a Sunday was that if they didn't have it the timetable would have to be amended far more often.

There is a lot of padding between Fratton and Portsmouth Harbour. Less so into Waterloo it seems.

If I recall how it was explained by my Manager, the timetable on a Sunday is designed that if required it can operate as a two track railway between Waterloo and Clapham Junction, without having to do major retimings of services.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Deleted

 

[infobleep]

If I recall how it was explained by my Manager, the timetable on a Sunday is designed that if required it can operate as a two track railway between Waterloo and Clapham Junction, without having to do major retimings of services.

How often do they run a two track railway between Waterloo and Clapham Junction on a Sunday?

 

[TEW]

On Sunday mornings one of the two lines is normally closed between Waterloo and Clapham Junction.

 

[theironroad]

Sunday morning padding between Waterloo and clj until 1300 is different to the padding in the whole network the rest of week.

Yes, Sunday morning between way and clj and clj to wat has plenty of extra time built in and this is to allow one set of lines to be closed for track patrolling inspection work, probably the quietest time of the week, at least in daylight.

 

[infobleep]

However that is between Waterloo and Clapham Junction. The Poole service on a Sunday is due to arrive into Woking at 26 minutes passed and depart 28 minutes passed but regularly arrives 21 minutes passed, which is 7 minutes before its due to depart. The Portsmouth service is also early but is held outside of Woking awaiting the departure of the Poole service.

They don't get into Woking that early on Monday to Saturday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is their a chance that the next franchise will offer compensation for passengers delayed on South West Trains services but holding their annual season ticket on an Oyster card. Isn't there some loophole which means they currently can't claim for compensation when delayed?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

However that is between Waterloo and Clapham Junction. The Poole service on a Sunday is due to arrive into Woking at 26 minutes passed and depart 28 minutes passed but regularly arrives 21 minutes passed, which is 7 minutes before its due to depart. The Portsmouth service is also early but is held outside of Woking awaiting the departure of the Poole service.

They don't get into Woking that early on Monday to Saturday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is their a chance that the next franchise will offer compensation for passengers delayed on South West Trains services but holding their annual season ticket on an Oyster card. Isn't there some loophole which means they currently can't claim for compensation when delayed?

As far as I am aware, you can no longer hold a south west trains season ticket on an Oyster card. I used to do this so I could combine the robustness of Oyster over paper with the benefit of the free SWT gold card travel tickets.

I used to get my season from Richmond, however south west trains withdrew the Oyster option from Richmond and Wimbledon.

I have now reverted to a paper ticket and have had to have it replaced twice due to it becoming unreadable and magnetic strip failure.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as I am aware, you can no longer hold a south west trains season ticket on an Oyster card. I used to do this so I could combine the robustness of Oyster over paper with the benefit of the free SWT gold card travel tickets.

An 'SWT season' presumably being point to point between 2 SWT stations? I don't think that has ever been available on Oyster, only zonal tickets can/could be loaded.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

An 'SWT season' presumably being point to point between 2 SWT stations? I don't think that has ever been available on Oyster, only zonal tickets can/could be loaded.

True I used to purchase a zone 1-6 from Richmond station to get the free gold card tickets. Now I get a Feltham - Waterloo season and use my old persons free Oyster for the rest of the journey. I save quite a bit only getting the point to point ticket.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'm in two minds over the franchise.

One part of me says "Better the devil you know", the other says "Time for fresh blood & talent".

I think it would be better if it were split though.

London suburban services to/from Waterloo to:

Epsom/Chessington/Hampton Court/Kingston Loop/Shepperton/Hounslow Loop/Weybridge via Chertsey.

These should be handed over to TfL. Which is what Boris wants.

However the current suburban services to:

Guildford via Cobham/Epsom/Woking & Dorking should remain with the SW franchise to provide a true semi-fast service to/from Surbiton/Wimbledon.

That means that for Guildford (C)/Guildford (WK) & Woking Bay services, they'd call as now to Surbiton, Wimbledon, Clapham, Waterloo. Giving them a reduced journey time.

And for Guildford (EP) & Dorking services, as now, except Epsom, (Possibly) Worcester Park, Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Clapham, Vauxhall & Waterloo.

Again these would benefit from a reduced journey time, which TBQH are currently appalling!

These would miss the intermediates as would be served by TfL.

Those along with Reading & Windsor and all mainline outer suburban & longer distance stuff remains within the SW franchise.

One thing that should definitely happen is the reinstatement of the overbridge at Putney which used to carry the up line over the Windsor lines without conflict, this could allow (should TfL do those services) to work some trains over the East Putney line, onto the Windsor side, these could also supplement the tubes giving Wimbledon Park & Southfields some mainline services for the first time.

 

[infobleep]

I'm in two minds over the franchise.

One part of me says "Better the devil you know", the other says "Time for fresh blood & talent".

I think it would be better if it were split though.

London suburban services to/from Waterloo to:

Epsom/Chessington/Hampton Court/Kingston Loop/Shepperton/Hounslow Loop/Weybridge via Chertsey.

These should be handed over to TfL. Which is what Boris wants.

However the current suburban services to:

Guildford via Cobham/Epsom/Woking & Dorking should remain with the SW franchise to provide a true semi-fast service to/from Surbiton/Wimbledon.

That means that for Guildford (C)/Guildford (WK) & Woking Bay services, they'd call as now to Surbiton, Wimbledon, Clapham, Waterloo. Giving them a reduced journey time.

And for Guildford (EP) & Dorking services, as now, except Epsom, (Possibly) Worcester Park, Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Clapham, Vauxhall & Waterloo.

Again these would benefit from a reduced journey time, which TBQH are currently appalling!

These would miss the intermediates as would be served by TfL.

Those along with Reading & Windsor and all mainline outer suburban & longer distance stuff remains within the SW franchise.

One thing that should definitely happen is the reinstatement of the overbridge at Putney which used to carry the up line over the Windsor lines without conflict, this could allow (should TfL do those services) to work some trains over the East Putney line, onto the Windsor side, these could also supplement the tubes giving Wimbledon Park & Southfields some mainline services for the first time.

Why did they get ride of the bridge line at Putney?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Because of maintenance costs & a structural defect IIRC.

 

[glbotu]

One thing that should definitely happen is the reinstatement of the overbridge at Putney which used to carry the up line over the Windsor lines without conflict, this could allow (should TfL do those services) to work some trains over the East Putney line, onto the Windsor side, these could also supplement the tubes giving Wimbledon Park & Southfields some mainline services for the first time.

Much though I like seeing rail infrastructure re-used, I'm not that sure about re-opening Point Pleasant Junction would be particularly useful.

1. It's not grade-separated at East Putney. It is at the Main side, but not with the tube, which is planned to have 16 tph after the re-signalling (2018 was before they re-let the contract). Interfering with that with trains with vastly different acceleration (and a speed differential to boot LU trains can get to 45 mph, all others at 30 mph), would be disastrous for the District Line, which is of far more use than what would be a much slower way of getting to Waterloo from Wimbledon. Furthermore, in the Up direction, you cross the District Line on the flat again at Wimbledon. It wouldn't be very long before everyone decided that they would avoid "via Putney" and you'd be running lots of empty stock. I don't think the Wimbledon - Wandsworth Market is that lucrative (and Wandsworth is already partially served at Earlsfield by the SWML anyway).

2. And even more criminal, to get from the Down LU to the Down Slow at Wimbledon requires flat crossing the Up Slow, Up Fast and Down Fast.

 

[hwl]

4tph East Putney - Waterloo would be a very useful capacity enhancement in the peaks (Especially Clapham Jn -Waterloo) and would avoid any conflicts with the District line (and any level crossing issues further out on the Windsor lines)