Extra Cambrian and Heart of Wales servies -your experiences

[PHILIPE]

10:33 ex-SHR to BHM was only 2-car today. Caused chaos at WVH as reduced frequency from there to BHM due to engineering work at STA. Large numbers were directed on to the following LM local which was full and standing WVH-BHM

Following earlier unit failure. TOCs never see to take capacity into account during Engineering Work if there are connections available whatever TOCs are providing them.

 

[berneyarms]

Just wondering if anyone can post how the extra services have been doing over the summer months?

Have the loads on the Cambrian spread out or have their been overcrowding issues?

 

[Llanigraham]

All my friends who are using the Cambrian services say that they have found the loadings are a more spread out, but there are more people using them.

 

[berneyarms]

Good to hear - particularly as fears were expressed here that there might be overcrowding issues on certain trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was on the 4-car 1309 Birmingham International-Holyhead on Monday (17 Aug).
Outside Shrewsbury we were held as the 1230 ex Aberystwyth arrived, and then we pulled into P3 behind it and coupled up, making a 6-car 158.
At Chester the front unit (ex AYW) was detached, the original 4-cars continuing to Holyhead.
Was this just an odd movement, or is there effectively an Aberystwyth-Chester working?
It also makes a pleasant change not to shed 2 cars at Shrewsbury for the run to Chester/Holyhead.
Maybe it is a summer holiday thing.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 1730 from Aberystwyth has been rammed on quite a few occasions esp Saturdays there's several complaint letters floating around. The passengers off the 1538 ex Pwllheli that connect to it at Dovey Junction find a connecting 2 car train far from adequate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All my friends who are using the Cambrian services say that they have found the loadings are a more spread out, but there are more people using them.

Certainly a general truism. Some trains are not doing that well. The 0624 from Shrewsbury East of Mach and the1830 from Aber. September will be interesting in terms of post 16 students going to Shrewsbury. So will John Lewis opening in Birmingham.

ATW reported an 8 percent increase in station footfall in 14/15 before the extra trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 1730 from Aberystwyth has been rammed on quite a few occasions esp Saturdays there's several complaint letters floating around. The passengers off the 1538 ex Pwllheli that connect to it at Dovey Junction find a connecting 2 car train far from adequate.

I imagine this is not a new problem since I don't think the 17:30 from Aberystwyth had a coast portion attached anyway, before the extra services were introduced.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I imagine this is not a new problem since I don't think the 17:30 from Aberystwyth had a coast portion attached anyway, before the extra services were introduced.

The 17.30 ex Aber in the summer holiday season looks like it's a planned disaster if diagrammed for just a 2-car, considering it's the last direct service back to Brum suitable for a family on a day out, not wanting to change or get home too late.

Add the Cambrian Coast traffic on such days and ..... I wonder how many times there is not enough room at Mach for people to board, and they have to wait for the 18.30 ex Aber?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I imagine this is not a new problem since I don't think the 17:30 from Aberystwyth had a coast portion attached anyway, before the extra services were introduced.

Always did carry the coast portion except in depth of winter. Plenty of occasions when folk from Aber portion have been relieved to walk through to extra carriages at Mach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 17.30 ex Aber in the summer holiday season looks like it's a planned disaster if diagrammed for just a 2-car, considering it's the last direct service back to Brum suitable for a family on a day out, not wanting to change or get home too late.

Add the Cambrian Coast traffic on such days and ..... I wonder how many times there is not enough room at Mach for people to board, and they have to wait for the 18.30 ex Aber?

Obvious weak line in the plan identified from the start by local RUG, especially as there's no 1630 from Aber.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Always did carry the coast portion except in depth of winter. Plenty of occasions when folk from Aber portion have been relieved to walk through to extra carriages at Mach.

Oh, the 15:37 from Pwllheli is shown as terminating at Machynlleth in the ATW timetable booklet prior to the extra services (December 2014 to May 2015). When did it stop being a through portion to Birmingham then?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Oh, the 15:37 from Pwllheli is shown as terminating at Machynlleth in the ATW timetable booklet prior to the extra services (December 2014 to May 2015). When did it stop being a through portion to Birmingham then?

Over the winter since End of Sep 14 When I commuted from Newtown to Mach The Pwllheli portion 1537 exPwl got into Mach first and could be almost deserted in the winter months but rammed in the summer.

 

[PHILIPE]

Oh, the 15:37 from Pwllheli is shown as terminating at Machynlleth in the ATW timetable booklet prior to the extra services (December 2014 to May 2015). When did it stop being a through portion to Birmingham then?

Never has been except Saturdays (to Shrewsbury) for balancing purposes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 17.30 ex Aber in the summer holiday season looks like it's a planned disaster if diagrammed for just a 2-car, considering it's the last direct service back to Brum suitable for a family on a day out, not wanting to change or get home too late.

Add the Cambrian Coast traffic on such days and ..... I wonder how many times there is not enough room at Mach for people to board, and they have to wait for the 18.30 ex Aber?

Always has been 2 Car and well loaded
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on the 4-car 1309 Birmingham International-Holyhead on Monday (17 Aug).
Outside Shrewsbury we were held as the 1230 ex Aberystwyth arrived, and then we pulled into P3 behind it and coupled up, making a 6-car 158.
At Chester the front unit (ex AYW) was detached, the original 4-cars continuing to Holyhead.
Was this just an odd movement, or is there effectively an Aberystwyth-Chester working?
It also makes a pleasant change not to shed 2 cars at Shrewsbury for the run to Chester/Holyhead.
Maybe it is a summer holiday thing.

Booked 4 Cars from Birmingham, 2 detached Llandudno Jn and 2 through to Holyhead.

 

[Parallel]

I used the 18:30 from Aberysywyth a few months ago - Was quite well loaded.

Although not new services; the Pwllheli portions (Mach - Pwllheli) were also very busy, and it was challenging to find seats on some services. There was even a 4 carriage service being operated on one of the days! (Well, the 19:06 Dovey Junction - Pwllheli service is a new one, although annoyingly doesn't stop at the station I needed. Though using a day ranger, it was quicker to go to Harlech and travel back than to wait two hours for the next one at Machynlleth.)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Being able to reach Aberystwyth off the 1537 ex Pwllheli and then being able to connect back up the coast off the 1830 from Aberystwyth has only been achieved by reducing the 1730 from Aberystwyth to a 2 car train going forward from Machynlleth.
The question is whether the dis benefits of Increased overcrowding on eastbound trains has been worth the creation of better connections between the Cambrian coast and Aberystwyth.

 

[berneyarms]

Being able to reach Aberystwyth off the 1537 ex Pwllheli and then being able to connect back up the coast off the 1830 from Aberystwyth has only been achieved by reducing the 1730 from Aberystwyth to a 2 car train going forward from Machynlleth.
The question is whether the dis benefits of Increased overcrowding on eastbound trains has been worth the creation of better connections between the Cambrian coast and Aberystwyth.

So how do you reconcile your statement with that of Philipe above with regards to the 17:30 from Aberystwyth, or are you referring to Saturdays only?

Never has been except Saturdays (to Shrewsbury) for balancing purposes.

Always has been 2 Car and well loaded

When I sat down and was figuring out the weekday links last year, it certainly seemed to be only a 2 car Monday-Friday all the way to Birmingham, with the coastal set going into the depot at Machynlleth, and Philipe seems to confirm this.

So I'm not sure if your comments are restricted to Saturdays?

 

[PHILIPE]

Before the recent alterations, the unit off the 15 37 ex Pwllheli to Machynlleth used to fuel and work what was then the 21 07 to Pwllheli. It now runs an 18 00 Machynlleth to Aberystwyth (originally ECS) and new 18 30 Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury.

 

[berneyarms]

Before the recent alterations, the unit off the 15 37 ex Pwllheli to Machynlleth used to fuel and work what was then the 21 07 to Pwllheli. It now runs an 18 00 Machynlleth to Aberystwyth (originally ECS) and new 18 30 Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury.

Which is what was said earlier in this thread as well.

Gareth I think you must only be referring to Saturdays as on Monday to Friday the 17:30 was always a 2 car set so that means no change and extra capacity due to the 18:30 service on those days.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.....

The 0624 from Shrewsbury East of Mach and the1830 from Aber. September will be interesting in terms of post 16 students going to Shrewsbury. So will John Lewis opening in Birmingham.
...

I imagine the 06.24 is really a positioning move up to Mach, isn't it? I mean, I never imagined many passengers originate from Shrewsbury, or the intermediate stations up to Mach, for Aberystwyth. Certainly not at that time in the morning.

Which begs the question: who are the passengers on the Cambrian?

I've usually assumed the majority are to/from Wolves/Brum/London, with some local commuting/shopping/business into Aber and into the 'nodes' on the coast line. Happy to be enlightened though.

 

[PHILIPE]

I imagine the 06.24 is really a positioning move up to Mach, isn't it? I mean, I never imagined many passengers originate from Shrewsbury, or the intermediate stations up to Mach, for Aberystwyth. Certainly not at that time in the morning.

Which begs the question: who are the passengers on the Cambrian?

I've usually assumed the majority are to/from Wolves/Brum/London, with some local commuting/shopping/business into Aber and into the 'nodes' on the coast line. Happy to be enlightened though.

In May there were 4 additional trains in each direction and the extra trains were covered without any additional units. You can say it was resource led as and when available. None of the services are positioning moves.

Here is the link to the full story:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89350

 

[Llanigraham]

I imagine the 06.24 is really a positioning move up to Mach, isn't it? I mean, I never imagined many passengers originate from Shrewsbury, or the intermediate stations up to Mach, for Aberystwyth. Certainly not at that time in the morning.

Which begs the question: who are the passengers on the Cambrian?

I've usually assumed the majority are to/from Wolves/Brum/London, with some local commuting/shopping/business into Aber and into the 'nodes' on the coast line. Happy to be enlightened though.

There are certainly people who do catch the early trains towards Mach.

I would suggest that most of the passengers are locals. I know of several that travel between Caersws and Welshpool to work, and others on to Salop.
There are also a few that travel Caersws - Machynlleth.
After 0830 off Caersws I would say most are locals going shopping in Salop or Brum, with a few travelling further on connections form Salop.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are certainly people who do catch the early trains towards Mach.

I would assume and hope there are.
But are there enough to justifty this as a commercial service?
Beyond Mach, I could believe it is justified.
This is why I had assumed it was a positioning train.

I would suggest that most of the passengers are locals. I know of several that travel between Caersws and Welshpool to work, and others on to Salop.
There are also a few that travel Caersws - Machynlleth.
After 0830 off Caersws I would say most are locals going shopping in Salop or Brum, with a few travelling further on connections form Salop.

Thanks. Interesting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(Well, the 19:06 Dovey Junction - Pwllheli service is a new one, although annoyingly doesn't stop at the station I needed. Though using a day ranger, it was quicker to go to Harlech and travel back than to wait two hours for the next one at Machynlleth.)

This 19.06 avoids stopping at the smaller ie request stations between Barmouth and Portmadog - bar one - presumably due to need to avoid holding up other trains at passing loops.

Must be pleasant for passengers heading north to 'speed' past all these normal stops, but what I don't understand is why timetable a request stop at Llanaber?

Llanaber is little used (according to the stats) and more or less walking distance from Barmouth.

Both Dyffryn and, especially Talybont, are better used stations and both would offer a more spread out stopping pattern geographically.

Perhaps the timetabler's girlfriend lives in Llanaber?

 

[jimm]

I would assume and hope there are.
But are there enough to justifty this as a commercial service?
Beyond Mach, I could believe it is justified.
This is why I had assumed it was a positioning train.

If it has to make the journey anyway and has a crew on board, then why not allow passengers to use it if they want, however modest the number on board in the early stages of the journey? It's a few quid in the farebox - and how 'commercial' are any services on the Cambrian routes anyway, given the hefty subsidy that ATW gets?

There's nothing unusual about trains like this being opened up to passengers. There are a couple of examples on my doorstep on the Cotswold Line. The current 05.14 from Oxford to Worcester ran for some time as empty stock from Reading or Oxford to Moreton-in-Marsh, where it then entered passenger service, even though it was crewed throughout by a driver and guard.

And the 05.12 HST from Paddington to Moreton-in-Marsh, which started running in May to provide the 07.09 back to Paddington, replaced a working out to Charlbury which ran empty stock from London. It even connects very nicely with the first buses of the day from Moreton to Cheltenham and Stratford-upon-Avon - HST arrives 06.45, buses leave 06.55, so perfect for insomniac tourists on a day trip from London.

Getting back on topic, I was in Knighton on Friday afternoon and observed the arrival and departure of a well-loaded 153 on the 14.05 from Shrewsbury to Swansea - train was about 12 minutes late after being held outside Craven Arms station to allow a delayed northbound Marches train to call and make a connection. Ten or a dozen people got off at Knighton, with four boarding.

Does anyone know how the new HOWL services are getting on and/or loadings on the line generally? They don't seem to have got much of a mention, despite this thread's title, and the HOWLTA and Heart of Wales Line Forum websites have nothing to say on the subject.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't tourists take direct trains rather than bus connections?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Who uses the Cambrian? ATW gave the following footfall figures to the Line Liaison Committee meeting in July for 14/15 pre the extra trains.
Aberystwyth 340K , Borth 60K, Dovey Juntion 2K, Machylleth 125K, Caersws 50K, Newtown 130K and Welshpool 135K. In addition theirs through passengers to the Cambrian Coast though the number was not given. Pre extra service use seems to have been just under the one million year mark.

The eastern end between Welshpool and Shrewsbury is twice as busy as between Borth and Aberystwyth. The primary flow is eastbound, ticket sale at Newtown are 80% eastbound/20% westbound. trains progressively get quieter the further west they travel. The through traffic to the coast line has huge seasonal variation. Both Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion are characterised by having two thirds of their rail traffic being cross border to England. As a general rule of thumb 50% get off on arrival at Shrewsbury the bulk going into the town itself plus people changing for the North West/South West and other parts of Wales (Cardiff is a small market). London and the SE account for around a third of the Cambrian passengers going beyond Shrewsbury with destinations in the West Midlands accounting for the rest.

Whilst theirs a noticeable Mach/Borth to Aber local market its a lot smaller than demand for travel to England. There's also a two way flow between Newtown-Welshpool. Commuting at the eastern end has been limited by the old tt with arrivals into Shrewsbury at 0711 and then not till 0925, now the gap is filled by the 0630 from Aber and the market should develop.

 

[jimm]

Wouldn't tourists take direct trains rather than bus connections?

To the end destinations, yes, but the buses from Moreton-in-Marsh serve lots of tourist hotspots without a rail service, such as Stow-on-the-Wold, Bourton-on-the-Water, Broadway and Chipping Campden, which I should have spelled out.

 

[PHILIPE]

With due respect to Iron Duke who only joined the Forum in June, he would possibly be unaware of the background to events leading up to the current Timetable which is the reason, I pointed the poster to the appropriate but rather lengthy thread. Welcome to the Forum and discussion, Iron Duke.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Any reports on the amended HoW train service ?

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps the timetabler's girlfriend lives in Llanaber?

Now there's a long distance relationship, probably quicker to meet someone abroad than Cardiff to Llanaber

 

[jimm]

With due respect to the OP who only joined the Forum in June, he would possibly be unaware of the background to events leading up to the current Timetable which is the reason, I pointed the OP to the appropriate but rather lengthy thread. Welcome to the Forum and discussion, Iron Duke.

There's background and then there's a 78-page thread, running for the best part of two years, with 1,100-plus posts, ranging over all manner of aspects of the run-up to the enhanced timetable, so a bit of an ask to expect someone to draw out specific information from it unless they have a lot of time on their hands to review the whole lot.

In any case, it's not as if sparsely-loaded dmus heading out of Shrewsbury early in the morning is a new phenomenon. The Aberystwyth and Swansea postal jobs were never exactly over-run with passengers, with the mailbags providing the 'commercial' justification for their existence. I did Huddersfield-Llandeilo in the summer of 1985 using the York TPO to reach Shrewsbury and was one of only two or three passengers on board the dmu as far as Llandrindod, though things certainly picked up at Llandovery, where I see the new morning train sets off at basically the same time as the dmu carrying the post from Shrewsbury called for many years, though the Sprinters are a bit sprightlier than a Class 120, which in 1965 would only have got to Llanelli by the time the new service reaches Swansea.

So does anyone know how the new-look HoW service is faring in terms of passengers?

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's background and then there's a 78-page thread, running for the best part of two years, with 1,100-plus posts, ranging over all manner of aspects of the run-up to the enhanced timetable, so a bit of an ask to expect someone to draw out specific information from it unless they have a lot of time on their hands to review the whole lot.

In any case, it's not as if sparsely-loaded dmus heading out of Shrewsbury early in the morning is a new phenomenon. The Aberystwyth and Swansea postal jobs were never exactly over-run with passengers, with the mailbags providing the 'commercial' justification for their existence. I did Huddersfield-Llandeilo in the summer of 1985 using the York TPO to reach Shrewsbury and was one of only two or three passengers on board the dmu as far as Llandrindod, though things certainly picked up at Llandovery, where I see the new morning train sets off at basically the same time as the dmu carrying the post from Shrewsbury called for many years, though the Sprinters are a bit sprightlier than a Class 120, which in 1965 would only have got to Llanelli by the time the new service reaches Swansea.

So does anyone know how the new-look HoW service is faring in terms of passengers?

Ive not heard a thing on the HOW.

Did my work experience from school in the box at Caersws in June 86. Had to be down the box from 0500 for the mail train, the 150's had just arrived down the Cambrian then and the CCE had been reintroduced certainly had a buzz about it after near 25 years of decline. A couple of slumbering figures onboard and the Royal Mail van meeting it.

Loadings on the 0625 from Shrewsbury east of Machynlleth look similar but without the mail bags. The 1930 from Aber runs from mach as a four car formation using the unit off the 1738 from Pwllheli so as to balance up the units in/out from Shrewsbury each day. The effort versus the users looks disproportionate. However the lobbying from the line liaison committee claimed there was demand for people to be in Aber pre 0900 from the Severn Valley. Councillors in Ceredigion think Aberystwyth is the centre of the universe and the ability to travel there should drive the lines tt but go up the coast the Councillors think that through traffic to the coast from England should drive the tt.