Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[trainplan1]

Ideal for something mildly self contained like Wrexham Bidston, or a quiet branch line, but for something struggling alongside express trains - nah. Perfect starter-stock for line reopenings done cheaply, perhaps like Anglesey's Amwlch line.

And we'll have a forum thread in years asking if the 230's saved branches from closure...

 

[strettonarms96]

Haven't been following this thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned or covered but, have Arriva Trains Wales shown any interest in these new trains, especially seeing as overcrowding problems are real! Also, if so which lines would be most likely to see them being used?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't been following this thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned or covered but, have Arriva Trains Wales shown any interest in these new trains, especially seeing as overcrowding problems are real! Also, if so which lines would be most likely to see them being used?

The Valley Lines pre-electrification have been mentioned.

 

[northwichcat]

The Valley Lines pre-electrification have been mentioned.

And it looks like funding has only been committed for some of the Valley Lines to be electrified by 2023, others are set to see improvements by then which don't include wires: http://gov.wales/docs/det/policy/150722-ntfp15-en.pdf

 

[Chris125]

If that be the case, why was it reported that Adrian Shooter had commented that it would be best for orders to be placed soon as they had a limited number of units to sell.

This is a commercial venture - he's trying to sell them so they can start recouping the upfront investment and ultimately start turning a profit as soon as possible, I'd expect nothing less.

 

[Nym]

they do have a limited number to sell all 75 of them, as a salesman he going to say things like that isn't he.

Meanwhile on the Vivarail website it contains as much bull**** as Jeremy Corbyn's speech Oh for the interests of balance David Cameron's speech next week as well

They have 75 of them?

I thought that 77 or 78 could be made up with what they've bought...

 

[fairysdad]

I realise the answer is probably 'No, not yet', but does anybody know if the numbers these units will be receiving will have any similarities to the numbers they carry/ied as D-Stocks?

(I'm not actually that interested in train numbers as a 'ticking-off' exercise (except wondering where 43099 is these days), I think I'm just interested purely from an administrative point of view!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And we'll have a forum thread in years asking if the 230's saved branches from closure...

Or even one that asks if branches were saved from the 230's...

 

[jopsuk]

I realise the answer is probably 'No, not yet', but does anybody know if the numbers these units will be receiving will have any similarities to the numbers they carry/ied as D-Stocks?

Most of them will have DMs from two D78 units

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is a commercial venture - he's trying to sell them so they can start recouping the upfront investment and ultimately start turning a profit as soon as possible, I'd expect nothing less.

How many products that are made from old used products with new additions added destined for the market, officially untested yet, can you think of in recent years to have advanced sales marketing campaigns encouraging sales prior to a required product testing?

 

[47802]

They have 75 of them?

I thought that 77 or 78 could be made up with what they've bought...

Well OK are we going to nit pick whether its 75 or 78.

The fact that electrification is back on but much more slowly than originally envisaged ought strengthen the case for buying new rather than these things in my view.

If we look at the 2 schemes in question then the midland is only going to free up intercity DMU's and if has been suggested is correct and a significant number of bi-modes will be obtained for TPE then the number of 185's freed up at electrification completion isn't going to be that great, and presumably most CP6 scheme's are now off the scale, and in any case there will be loads of 1st gen sprinters in need of replacement by the mid 2020's

If we buy these for projected life span of 10 years then the chances are that we will not now be in a position to replace these with a whole raft of spare DMU's cascaded as a result of electrification.

 

[route:oxford]

How many products that are made from old used products with new additions added destined for the market, officially untested yet, can you think of in recent years to have advanced sales marketing campaigns encouraging sales prior to a required product testing?

Thousands?

There must be countless former mills, dockside warehouses and railway buildings that have been rebuilt, updgraded then marketed as new homes.

 

[Murph]

How many products that are made from old used products with new additions added destined for the market, officially untested yet, can you think of in recent years to have advanced sales marketing campaigns encouraging sales prior to a required product testing?

Close to 100% of the electronics and software industries do that to some extent or another. Every major new version of an existing product tends to re-use stuff from the previous versions; and sales and marketing tends to be pushing them hard long before the product is fully tested or ready for general release.

Not exactly the same thing, I grant you, but I see their approach to sales, marketing, and pre-orders as being unremarkable. In today's world, a business very often can't wait until the product is ready to go before trying to market it and secure orders. As long as they are not dishonest about the current state of the product, there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[NSEFAN]

Close to 100% of the electronics and software industries do that to some extent or another. Every major new version of an existing product tends to re-use stuff from the previous versions; and sales and marketing tends to be pushing them hard long before the product is fully tested or ready for general release.

And I can assure you that it is most frustraiting when the marketing department have promised the Earth, for a tiny budget as agreed by management. The engineers are expected to be the oompa-loompas of science and somehow magic up a product that meets all the specs for agreed price.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thousands? There must be countless former mills, dockside warehouses and railway buildings that have been rebuilt, updgraded then marketed as new homes.

I note you ignored my final proviso of "required product testing" which I do not see as being required in the examples that you have quoted above.

 

[ac6000cw]

The engineers are expected to be the oompa-loompas of science and somehow magic up a product that meets all the specs for agreed price.

Nothing new then - it's been like that for the 35+ years I've been doing it.

Isn't that what makes engineering design interesting and challenging ?

If it was easy it would be boring and not very satisfying...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nothing new then - it's been like that for the 35+ years I've been doing it.

Isn't that what makes engineering design interesting and challenging ?

If it was easy it would be boring and not very satisfying...

Very well said. However what appears to be the external look of the finished Class 230 product appears to have followed a directive to produce a "retro style" product. That idea seems to be in vogue at present for a number of products such as radios, furniture, etc.

 

[47802]

Very well said. However what appears to be the external look of the finished Class 230 product appears to have followed a directive to produce a "retro style" product. That idea seems to be in vogue at present for a number of products such as radios, furniture, etc.

isn't it retro because it is retro(ancient) and more ancient than the trains its meant to replace

 

[Roose]

Roger Ford e-preview had some interesting comments. Including that the ride (others agreed) "be better than a pacer". Also Iam Walmsey believes front end protection could be better than a 150.

Really aiming high with their comparisons...

They have 75 of them?

I thought that 77 or 78 could be made up with what they've bought...

Perhaps the pre-public crash tests with water bottles didn't go well...

 

[NSEFAN]

Nothing new then - it's been like that for the 35+ years I've been doing it.

Isn't that what makes engineering design interesting and challenging ?

If it was easy it would be boring and not very satisfying...

Oh it is good fun. Not so much though when you have to tell the management that marketing have, for example, sold a product that claims to break information theory and other such laws of physics.

Really aiming high with their comparisons...

Will RailUK develop it's own Godwin's law, where a person stoops to the level of comparing another poster with a D-train or a Pacer in order to win an argument?

 

[glbotu]

Oh it is good fun. Not so much though when you have to tell the management that marketing have, for example, sold a product that claims to break information theory and other such laws of physics.


Will RailUK develop it's own Godwin's law, where a person stoops to the level of comparing another poster with a D-train or a Pacer in order to win an argument?

Surely the RailUK Godwin's law is when someone suggests replacing something with re-tractioned 442s.................

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will RailUK develop it's own Godwin's law, where a person stoops to the level of comparing another poster with a D-train or a Pacer in order to win an argument?

Noting the number of times that one of "Newton's Heath Finest" has been used as a disparaging comparison in past days, we must all be thankful that the Blessed Adrian Shooter has had the wisdom to introduce the "Shooter Incubus" prior to the possible withdrawal of the Pacer fleet, in order that the RailUK forum membership are not deprived of a replacement to use in posting debates....

 

[northwichcat]

Noting the number of times that one of "Newton's Heath Finest" has been used as a disparaging comparison in past days, we must all be thankful that the Blessed Adrian Shooter has had the wisdom to introduce the "Shooter Incubus" prior to the possible withdrawal of the Pacer fleet, in order that the RailUK forum membership are not deprived of a replacement to use in posting debates....

With seeing 'Blessed' and 'Newton Heath's finest' in that paragraph at first glance I immediately thought of a Pacer with a failed PA system and Brian Blessed shouting the station announcements .

 

[route:oxford]

I note you ignored my final proviso of "required product testing" which I do not see as being required in the examples that you have quoted above.

Oh there has to be considerable product testing before residents could move in.

Fire alarms and systems, heating, electricity, gas safe...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Oh there has to be considerable product testing before residents could move in.

Fire alarms and systems, heating, electricity, gas safe...

Really? A shame nobody told my landlord!

 

[Murph]

I note you ignored my final proviso of "required product testing" which I do not see as being required in the examples that you have quoted above.

It's not exactly the same, but the "required product testing" is certainly there in that example. The local authority "Building Control" has to sign off on the completed project, that it meets the current building regs for the new intended usage, and has been built according to submitted plans. That will often be after sales, marketing, and pre-orders; and any contracts already formed will likely be conditional on it. Do something wrong during the conversion, and the sale and use of the final product will be blocked due to regulations.

 

[AngusH]

How many products that are made from old used products with new additions added destined for the market, officially untested yet, can you think of in recent years to have advanced sales marketing campaigns encouraging sales prior to a required product testing?

Military aircraft? The UK Maritime patrol aircraft contest that led to the Nimrod MR4 programme.
(Which was of course eventually cancelled, possibly for political reasons, possibly because it became too expensive)

I'm not sure that's brilliantly positive as an example but I believe it meets the requirements.

It was successfully sold as a product to the UK government and I'm not sure it ever completed testing.
It also combined new parts with an old airframe and various other bits.

(I hope the viva rail programme is more successful of course)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Military aircraft? The UK Maritime patrol aircraft contest that led to the Nimrod MR4 programme. :rollWhich was of course eventually cancelled, possibly for political reasons, possibly because it became too expensive)

I'm not sure that's brilliantly positive as an example but I believe it meets the requirements. It was successfully sold as a product to the UK government and I'm not sure it ever completed testing. It also combined new parts with an old airframe and various other bits.

The Ministry of Defence procurement division is not what you would call the finest exponents of British purchasing procedure...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not exactly the same, but the "required product testing" is certainly there in that example. The local authority "Building Control" has to sign off on the completed project, that it meets the current building regs for the new intended usage, and has been built according to submitted plans. That will often be after sales, marketing, and pre-orders; and any contracts already formed will likely be conditional on it. Do something wrong during the conversion, and the sale and use of the final product will be blocked due to regulations.

At least there is the proviso that you state in the final sentence of your posting that I have emboldened.

 

[krus_aragon]

With seeing 'Blessed' and 'Newton Heath's finest' in that paragraph at first glance I immediately thought of a Pacer with a failed PA system and Brian Blessed shouting the station announcements .

Is he a fallback system when the PA itself doesn't work: open the cab door and bellow?

 

[The Ham]

At least there is the proviso that you state in the final sentence of your posting that I have emboldened.

That doesn't mean that things don't go wrong, it just means that the building SHOULD be sound. Of course that still leaves a lot of margin of error, you don't need to look hard for cases of building schemes where they have building control sing off but still have a long list of snagging.