Class 387

[387star]

Recently had my first 387 ride and very impressed

Plenty of space comfortable seats spacious tray tables with cup holders good interior finish and arm rests what's not to like

Thought these trains weren't liked so pleasantly surprised

 

[tsr]

Recently had my first 387 ride and very impressed

Plenty of space comfortable seats spacious tray tables with cup holders good interior finish and arm rests what's not to like

Thought these trains weren't liked so pleasantly surprised

Because they're spacious and the seats are quite wide, they do have a problem with limited space for both seated passengers and those standing in aisles, but other than that they are well-received.

The only significant problems in the passenger areas appear to be the perennial door button disintegration and the passenger information system, which almost never really seems to work for a whole end-to-end journey.

 

[Techniquest]

I've yet to have a ride longer than Blackfriars to City Thameslink or Farringdon to City Thameslink on a 387 so I can't comment on the 387s fairly yet. I do like that they have power sockets though, and one day I will have a decent run on one. I've been put off by the long trek from Blackfriars to East Croydon at the moment, once Bridge is properly open again (only a matter of months to go! ) then I'll be back to enjoying some proper Thameslink leaps again!

 

[swt_passenger]

I've been put off by the long trek from Blackfriars to East Croydon at the moment, once Bridge is properly open again (only a matter of months to go! :

2 years to go, in reality. Thameslink via London Bridge is the very last stage.

 

[Techniquest]

Ah right, great. The SET bit finishes next year I take it then?

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah right, great. The SET bit finishes next year I take it then?

Possibly better to say the major impact on Southeastern swaps between routes.

The changeover in August next year has Southeastern Charing Cross services stopping again, but at the same time the Cannon St services become non-stop while they rebuild the more northern platforms. I think that step lasts until well into 2017 at least, but I can't find exact details. (October 17 seems to have been on an earlier schedule, but that's obviously overtaken by a later timetable as per hwl's post.)

 

[hwl]

Ah right, great. The SET bit finishes next year I take it then?

No.

Charing Cross services running over new tracks (including New Borough Market Viaduct -completed pre Olympics) from after Xmas-NY Blockade.
But they can't stop at platforms till August '16. They also only have 3 of 4 final platforms till August '17 when they get P6 so have a reduced service till then (similar to current lower tph)

Cannon Street services don't stop from Aug '16 to Jan '18 and will run through the new P5/6 temporarily from Aug '16 until Easter '17 when the tracks (1+2) but not the platforms and concourse are finished so they run through 1+2 without stopping till Jan '18.

P1-5 and part of concourse underneath opens for passengers Jan '18.

 

[JaJaWa]

The only significant problems in the passenger areas appear to be the perennial door button disintegration and the passenger information system, which almost never really seems to work for a whole end-to-end journey.

Are those problems with the 387s? I thought the first problem was resolved with the 379s, and the second with the 377s.

 

[Bald Rick]

No.

Charing Cross services running over new tracks (including New Borough Market Viaduct -completed pre Olympics) from after Xmas-NY Blockade.
But they can't stop at platforms till August '16. They also only have 3 of 4 final platforms till August '17 when they get P6 so have a reduced service till then (similar to current lower tph)

Cannon Street services don't stop from Aug '16 to Jan '18 and will run through the new P5/6 temporarily from Aug '16 until Easter '17 when the tracks (1+2) but not the platforms and concourse are finished so they run through 1+2 without stopping till Jan '18.

P1-5 and part of concourse underneath opens for passengers Jan '18.

Nearly correct.

When the first part of the concourse and platforms 7, 8 and 9 open next August, Charing Cross will return to a full peak service similar to that in use before January this year.

Cannon St services will, however reduce slightly. This is partly because of the reduction in capacity at London Bridge (one line each way non stopping, as opposed to 3 with stops), partly because demand in these services will be lower due to not calling at London Bridge, but mostly because the ECS that currently go via Blackfriars won't be able to do so.

All rail infrastructure works and full concourse open Jan 18. Concourse finished May 18. Thameslink cross London services will be reinstated via London Bridge, gradually, from Jan 18, albeit with time in the timetable to allow diversion via Elephant. Rising to 12 tph peak for May 18, 16tph from Dec 18. (the other 8tph are via Elephant).

 

[Class377/5]

I've yet to have a ride longer than Blackfriars to City Thameslink or Farringdon to City Thameslink on a 387 so I can't comment on the 387s fairly yet. I do like that they have power sockets though, and one day I will have a decent run on one. I've been put off by the long trek from Blackfriars to East Croydon at the moment, once Bridge is properly open again (only a matter of months to go! ) then I'll be back to enjoying some proper Thameslink leaps again!

There won't be any 387s working on Thameslink when it returns to running through London Bridge as it's not until 02/01/18 that the Thameslink lines are open. By then the 387s will have gone.

As for the 387s, here's an update on the locations

201/202 at Stewarts Lane
203/205/206 at Bletchley
204/207/208/209/210 all have been tested at Litchurch Lane.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've yet to have a ride longer than Blackfriars to City Thameslink or Farringdon to City Thameslink on a 387 so I can't comment on the 387s fairly yet. I do like that they have power sockets though, and one day I will have a decent run on one. I've been put off by the long trek from Blackfriars to East Croydon at the moment, once Bridge is properly open again (only a matter of months to go! ) then I'll be back to enjoying some proper Thameslink leaps again!

If you want to travel on the 387s at something higher than 30mph in the Travelcard area, then they often turn up on the half hourly Bedford fast services that call at West Hampstead. The only issue is that all the speed above 50mph is in Belsize tunnel.

 

[ScotGG]

Does the increase in Charing X services even out exactly with the reduction in Cannon St services, from Aug 2016, meaning no cuts on any routes in capacity?

 

[JonathanH]

If you want to travel on the 387s at something higher than 30mph in the Travelcard area, then they often turn up on the half hourly Bedford fast services that call at West Hampstead. The only issue is that all the speed above 50mph is in Belsize tunnel.

How fast do they go between Blackfriars and Loughborough Junction and through Gypsy Hill. Those seem to be the fastest bits of the current crawl via Tulse Hill / Crystal Palace.

Also, 387s will (presumably) be calling at Purley and Coulsdon South on some services from Monday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does the increase in Charing X services even out exactly with the reduction in Cannon St services, from Aug 2016, meaning no cuts on any routes in capacity?

Haven't seen the timetable, so don't know. I would be very surprised if the whole fleet isn't out each peak though, so in terms of seats into London it can't be much different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How fast do they go between Blackfriars and Loughborough Junction and through Gypsy Hill. Those seem to be the fastest bits of the current crawl via Tulse Hill / Crystal Palace.

Also, 387s will (presumably) be calling at Purley and Coulsdon South on some services from Monday.

There's a mile and a half of 60 between Elephant and Loughborough Jn, although depending on traffic and which line they take they may not do it. Gypsy Hill is 50.

 

[tsr]

Are those problems with the 387s? I thought the first problem was resolved with the 379s, and the second with the 377s.

They most certainly are. The PIS faults are now more prevalent than the buttons falling off. To be fair, I haven't seen nearly as many missing buttons and switches of late. There was a point a couple of months ago when I used a number of them and there were broken bits of buttons ground into quite a few carpets, but that seems to have calmed down a bit now.

The PIS still thinks that "Welcome" or constantly saying "We are now approaching Balcombe" is sufficient, which is unhelpful to say the least. Something like that now happens almost every time I see or ride one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a mile and a half of 60 between Elephant and Loughborough Jn, although depending on traffic and which line they take they may not do it. Gypsy Hill is 50.

You'll be lucky to get to 50 at Gipsy Hill on many occasions. The starter signal on the Down in particular is often checked down to a single yellow or red due to traffic intensity.

 

[fgwrich]

They most certainly are. The PIS faults are now more prevalent than the buttons falling off. To be fair, I haven't seen nearly as many missing buttons and switches of late. There was a point a couple of months ago when I used a number of them and there were broken bits of buttons ground into quite a few carpets, but that seems to have calmed down a bit now.

The PIS still thinks that "Welcome" or constantly saying "We are now approaching Balcombe" is sufficient, which is unhelpful to say the least. Something like that now happens almost every time I see or ride one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You'll be lucky to get to 50 at Gipsy Hill on many occasions. The starter signal on the Down in particular is often checked down to a single yellow or red due to traffic intensity.

Ah. That's a little bit more helpful than the ones I've come across. ''Welcome to Thameslink Class 387'' & ''Welcome to Bombardier Class 387'' Mind you, I have had a 377 with came up with 'Welcome to Class 170 Turbostar'' before. Umm ok!

 

[jon0844]

I don't understand why the whole CIS has to reset, then take ages to start working again, simply because of the AC/DC power change. It must cause all sorts of problems, as well as confusing passengers (although I guess saying 'Welcome' is better than 'Electrostar').

Okay, so it's not a critical service in the event of a power failure so I guess that's the reason, but when the power is changed intentionally, couldn't Bombardier have found a way to keep the system running for at least 10-15 seconds, similar to that of the overrun feature on a bathroom extractor fan.

What will the 700s do when they switch power?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I don't understand why the whole CIS has to reset, then take ages to start working again, simply because of the AC/DC power change. It must cause all sorts of problems, as well as confusing passengers (although I guess saying 'Welcome' is better than 'Electrostar').

Okay, so it's not a critical service in the event of a power failure so I guess that's the reason, but when the power is changed intentionally, couldn't Bombardier have found a way to keep the system running for at least 10-15 seconds, similar to that of the overrun feature on a bathroom extractor fan.

What will the 700s do when they switch power?

Why doesn't the CIS have a battery backup to maintain the display whilst the change over takes place?

 

[AM9]

Why doesn't the CIS have a battery backup to maintain the display whilst the change over takes place?

It doesn't even need to be the display. Assuming that there is a processor mudule fed from the train data bus, all that needs to be kept running is that processor which could even be battery backed locally. The displays would then just blank with no power and then return with the display unchanged.

 

[urpert]

If you want to travel on the 387s at something higher than 30mph in the Travelcard area, then they often turn up on the half hourly Bedford fast services that call at West Hampstead. The only issue is that all the speed above 50mph is in Belsize tunnel.

They occasionally turn up on the Beckenham Jn - Bedford peak workings, some of which are fast BJ - Herne Hill (so depending on traffic may get up to 60, including through Penge Tunnel).

 

[D365]

Why doesn't the CIS have a battery backup to maintain the display whilst the change over takes place?

You want to try implementing that, on a train that's already heavy?

Always the electronic engineers who aren't doing their job :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're talking a mobile phone sized battery per unit, surely?

 

[387star]

Window seat alignment is great and surprised how many table sears there are unusual now?

 

[JN114]

How did we cope in the days before auto-announcing PA and 20 LED screens per carriage...

Bombardier are a clever bunch. We well know already the PIS turns itself off when the train loses power, so as to conserve batteries for important things like emergency lighting, GSM-R radio etc. Do you not think in the 15 or so years we've had Electrostars or variants thereof, that if there was a fail safe way of doing it - as in a way of doing it where the system can't accidentally mix up a power change and a genuine loss-of-power emergency - then it would have been done already.

There's a well used saying where I work - if it's simple enough for us to come up with, the experts will have thought of it long ago...

EDIT: typo

 

[trainmania100]

Another Bletchley test via Brighton running today
Not sure which units

 

[AM9]

How did we cope in the days before auto-announcing PA and 20 LED screens per carriage...

Bombardier are a clever bunch. We well know already the PIS turns itself off when the train loses power, so as to conserve batteries for important things like emergency lighting, GSM-R radio etc. Do you not think in the 15 or so years we've had Electrostars or variants thereof, that if there was a fail safe way of doing it - as in a way of doing it where the system can't accidentally mix up a power change and a genuine loss-of-power emergency - then it would have been done already.

There's a well used saying where I work - if it's simple enough for us to come up with, the experts will have thought of it long ago...

EDIT: typo

If we take Farringdon as a typica ac>DC changeover and City Thameslink as a typical DC>ac event:
DC is available by the time a train stops at Farringdon. The shoes are already in contact with the 3rd rail. Thus the trains system knows that it is a changeover rather than an OLE failure. Thus certain standby systems can be left powered. That already includes all passenger lights (as the approach is in tunnel anyway), and door controls so the display data electronics is a drop in the ocean.
At City Thameslink, the situation is not quite as easy. I assume that the act of raising the pantograph requires the DC mode to be put to standby. A fix might be to provide a timed access to the standby supply for the display data circuits, say less than one minute. If the ac mode doesn't arrive by then, it's a reboot. Assuming the 387 displays have electronics of their manufacture era rather than something from the earliest days of Electrostars, the modules could have less than 10 watts per display. That's probably less than 10% of the lighting demand.
I doubt that Bombardier couldn't arrange for the display data to be kept alive and as dual voltage Electrostars are probably only used in the UK, it is a case of 'don't ask, won't get'. For sure the priority must be for emergency supplies to be protected but the opportunity for the later builds (i.e. classes 377/6, 377/7 379 and 387 - which have been described on here as electronically a different train), maybe was missed as the first examples (class 379s) were ac only. It's the cost of changing design rather than the lack of ability to design it that is probably the driver here.

 

[D365]

... and as dual voltage Electrostars are probably only used in the UK, it is a case of 'don't ask, won't get'.

There's only one other country in which 'Electrostars' operate at all.

 

[sarahj]

Yesterday I was passing on a 387 from Brighton to the Heath and the PIS was not on at all. And the driver said nothing at all.

 

[jon0844]

As I said, I wonder how Siemens does it and what the 700s will do.

I bet nobody asked Bombardier to do it, so they didn't. And surely the tech required to run the PIS could run on hardware that doesn't need much power?

Smartwatches can run 24 hours or so with a 400mAh battery, which is less than a single AAA battery (my dashcam also has a tiny battery that will go for about 6 minutes). So I wonder how much battery is needed to keep the system alive for 15 or 20 seconds during a changeover?

The screens can go off, it's just the controller.

If that extra weight is a problem, maybe it's countered by the plastic buttons falling off anyway.

 

[D365]

If that extra weight is a problem, maybe it's countered by the plastic buttons falling off anyway.

My assumption was that Bombardier would take it upon themselves to over-engineer this 'uninterruptible PIS'. Until I realised that this argument would be invalidated by just a brief mention of the buttons falling off