Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[Gareth Marston]

Has there been any recent OFFICIAL statements made by the WAG on the matter of this thread, as I am sure some AM have had this matter put to them by members of this website couched in terms of strategic area planning for the west coastal regions of Cymru.

Read the link on Post 275 there's a letter from the Minister there.
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Which might make Llangefni and (a long shot) - the Amman Valley line contenders at some point - the latter serves a population of around 10,000 or so and it would add onto the (improved - from a low base) , HoW services at the sooth end of the route.

A more optimistic one might be Hirwaun (Pond) to Neath - though I thnk the upper end of the former line might be challenging.

The A465 is the biggest stumbling block it crosses over the trackbed just south of Glynneath close to a still intact bridge over the River Neath.
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I agree entirely with the cost/benefits analysis of the Carmarthen route. If the main aim is to regain the lost access for Aberystwyth back to the South Wales coastal railway, then it seems expensive and unfeasible in the short term.

The schemes mentioned to revitalise existing but unused or underused industrial railways on Anglesey and the Amman valley are much more worthwhile. Also the Pontyclun/Beddau/Creigiau route in Cardiff needs to happen as the city expands westwards.

An idea that I previously mentioned on this thread was that a southerly connection for Aberystwyth could be created by rebuilding the historic route that once linked the Heart of Wales Line and the Cambrian Line.

This ran from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction (east of Caersws) and connected Rhayader, Llanidloes and Llandinam.

Although some of the trackbed is now used by the A470, a new route from (say) Llandrindod Wells via these towns to the Cambrian Line is much shorter than Carmarthen to Aber. Also it would create another rail link through mid-Wales and open the potential for running Aberystwyth to Swansea. The original route followed the course of the River Severn; this might have to take a different tack due to the A470.

Of course the line speeds along the HOWL would have to be raised, the track upgraded... etc etc. A pipe dream of course!

Population along here is greater than inbetween Aberystwyth and Carmarthan. There's a hell of a lot of the route still there and easily traceable with ballast still evident in places and even Gangers huts! However there are notable places where the formation as been pinched for road uses especially through Llanidloes on the bypass.

 

[6Gman]

Well the other comparable line in the area which has been 'reopened' of sorts, the Fishguard branch (regular services through the day and one re-opened station) is now seeing a passenger loading which is comparable to that seen on the Pembroke Dock branch 'next door', so to speak. It'll never match the summer loadings for Tenby (unless we have another volcano incident) but it is well used even if some of the timings could be better. That line only ever used to have boat passengers, so it's gone from zero to what could reasonably be expected from the line in a very short space of time. I'd suggest that your comment of '20 passengers a day' would swiftly be exceeded and the line would reach usage levels similar to other rural lines around the country. It might not pay for itself in the short term, perhaps not even until the very long term, but it would be providing a much-needed service to the local communities as well as jobs in the area and I really don't think that your suggestion it may affect other schemes is anything more than scaremongering.

My "20 passengers a day" was not a prediction so cannot be exceeded. It was purely illustrative.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The A465 is the biggest stumbling block it crosses over the trackbed just south of Glynneath close to a still intact bridge over the River Neath.

No problem with today's engineering ! (However , available money will be !)

CP9 - assuming Network Rail survives ! (or New Great Western - Cardiff Division)

 

[Tumbleweed]

I wouldn't expect any further commitment from the Welsh Government this side of the next election for the Bay on anything transport wise. Whoever comes to power will have some serious thinking to do on the long long list of proposed schemes versus the funds available. M4 Relief road versus anything else?

True, but the M4 relief road was given the go ahead. Seems like old habits die hard, roads always come first.

 

[Gareth Marston]

True, but the M4 relief road was given the go ahead. Seems like old habits die hard, roads always come first.

The 15/16 budget was passed on the condition of lib dem support for certain concessions one of them was that no construction on the M4 relief road will happen before the next Assembly. One of the roads biggest supporters in Minister Edwina Hart is stepping down and leaving.

If May 15 is replicated in May 16 the Assembly will be a hung parliament as it's PR and not first past the post. Neither of Labours likely two partners Plaid and Lib Dems are supporters of the M4 Relief road.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Interesting times therefore ...whilst rail has had a decent run within the last decade , historically the penchant for building roads (and well underused industrial units) from the 1970's has been rather noticeable....

The M4 scheme does seem (a) expensive (b) environmentally damaging

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting times therefore ...whilst rail has had a decent run within the last decade , historically the penchant for building roads (and well underused industrial units) from the 1970's has been rather noticeable....

The M4 scheme does seem (a) expensive (b) environmentally damaging

and (c) very useful for those of us who go to or beyond Cardiff by car regularly!

 

[Gareth Marston]

and (c) very useful for those of us who go to or beyond Cardiff by car regularly!

if built and if true to form it will induce extra traffic which will make traffic congestion worse on the links to it.

 

[Greenback]

The M4 link road is a disastrous idea. It will not solve the problem of traffic congestion at all. As Gareth says, it just means that more traffic will be attracted on to the roads that feed it. All that expense and environmental damage for what exactly?

 

[Llanigraham]

An idea that I previously mentioned on this thread was that a southerly connection for Aberystwyth could be created by rebuilding the historic route that once linked the Heart of Wales Line and the Cambrian Line.

This ran from Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction (east of Caersws) and connected Rhayader, Llanidloes and Llandinam.

Although some of the trackbed is now used by the A470, a new route from (say) Llandrindod Wells via these towns to the Cambrian Line is much shorter than Carmarthen to Aber. Also it would create another rail link through mid-Wales and open the potential for running Aberystwyth to Swansea. The original route followed the course of the River Severn; this might have to take a different tack due to the A470.

Of course the line speeds along the HOWL would have to be raised, the track upgraded... etc etc. A pipe dream of course!

Total and complete pipe dream!!
Track bed has been obliterated or replaced by roads around Llanidloes.
Track bed has been developed over and replaced by roads between Llani and Rhayder. Also the tunnel is now a bat colony and the Wye viaduct removed.
Track bed south of Rhayader has been used by roads and been developed over.
Bridges removed in all sections.
And lastly, it was a slow, meandering, under used and costly to maintain line when it was open; it would be no different now!

(And my house would almost be in the way!!)

 

[HowardGWR]

Total and complete pipe dream!!

And lastly, it was a slow, meandering, under used and costly to maintain line when it was open; it would be no different now!

(And my house would almost be in the way!!)

Ah, we reach the nitty gritty.

 

[edwin_m]

(And my house would almost be in the way!!)

Does that mean it would be in your back yard?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does that mean it would be in your back yard?

....or your front garden..

 

[Gareth Marston]

Total and complete pipe dream!!
Track bed has been obliterated or replaced by roads around Llanidloes.
Track bed has been developed over and replaced by roads between Llani and Rhayder. Also the tunnel is now a bat colony and the Wye viaduct removed.
Track bed south of Rhayader has been used by roads and been developed over.
Bridges removed in all sections.
And lastly, it was a slow, meandering, under used and costly to maintain line when it was open; it would be no different now!

(And my house would almost be in the way!!)

Stick a trackbed over the Tarmac

 

[Llanigraham]

....or your front garden..

Correct!!

 

[beargy]

The M4 link road is a disastrous idea. It will not solve the problem of traffic congestion at all. As Gareth says, it just means that more traffic will be attracted on to the roads that feed it. All that expense and environmental damage for what exactly?

I live in Cardiff and drive (occasionally) but think the M4 relief road is a ridiculously poorly thought through idea for the same reasons others have already stated and will actually worsen congestion in and around Cardiff. It should have been realised long ago that the best way to reduce congestion is to improve public transport links, not to keep building more roads!

 

[Greenback]

It should have been realised long ago that the best way to reduce congestion is to improve public transport links, not to keep building more roads!

I completely agree with this. It's quite sad to see the WG sticking their heads in the sand over this and still rigidly sticking to the thinking of the 1960's and 1970's that building more and more roads reduces congestion and helps the economy.

 

[Chris125]

The scoping study is now available (pdf) - it finds the total project cost could be up to £750m.

 

[The Planner]

That has done a good job of killing it off, it says high level indication of £750million, you can easily push that to £1Billion once it was investigated further.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I have been following this in passing, not having any involvement in the subject.

However, a thought has just occurred to me, and that is "who is expected to travel on the new line if it were built?" The reason I ask is that (if the pattern elsewhere in Wales applies here as well, and I'm sure that it does) many of the current bus passengers use their free travel passes to travel on them. If there was a train service, the passes would not be valid, and everyone would have to pay to travel on them.

So, do you think that they would? To be honest, if the level of service and the time taken was about the same by bus and train, I don't think so, so where are the passengers supposed to come from? The trains would have to attract a lot of people who currently travel by car if it couldn't take many from the buses ... but would / could it do so?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good report all round - not as easy as expected perhaps - particularly the access into Aberystwyth (a tunnel under Pen Dinas no less) .....intrigued by the idea of a Llandeilo - Lampeter line (as promoted in 1908 and again in 1920) .....which would have been another Welsh Highland - albeit to standard gauge)

Into the records store I guess ....(but worth doing)

 

[Llanigraham]

I have been following this in passing, not having any involvement in the subject.

However, a thought has just occurred to me, and that is "who is expected to travel on the new line if it were built?" The reason I ask is that (if the pattern elsewhere in Wales applies here as well, and I'm sure that it does) many of the current bus passengers use their free travel passes to travel on them. If there was a train service, the passes would not be valid, and everyone would have to pay to travel on them.

So, do you think that they would? To be honest, if the level of service and the time taken was about the same by bus and train, I don't think so, so where are the passengers supposed to come from? The trains would have to attract a lot of people who currently travel by car if it couldn't take many from the buses ... but would / could it do so?

Not always true.
I can use my Welsh Bus Pass on the Cambrian, north of Machynlleth, on the Heart of Wales to Swansea, and on the Festiniog branch at certain times of year. (like now).

Other than that I agree with you. There are not enough passengers to use this line to make it viable. As I've said elsewhere "Oink flutter, oink flutter"

 

[Gareth Marston]

That has done a good job of killing it off, it says high level indication of £750million, you can easily push that to £1Billion once it was investigated further.

Opinion polls suggest Labour will be Short of a majority in Wales next May. Plaid in coalition again is a strong possibility. I seem to recall going to meet the Plaid Minister in charge of transport at the Bay in March 2008 regarding getting enhanced services on the Cambrian it was pointed out that it would benefit certain areas of the west Wales coast (that vote Plaid not said out loud at meeting!). The cheque book came out for Dovey Junction loop and Welshpool to Fron double track not much later.....

It will be a political decision.

 

[gazthomas]

Daft idea, we can't even get lines built in areas of high population

 

[The Planner]

Opinion polls suggest Labour will be Short of a majority in Wales next May. Plaid in coalition again is a strong possibility. I seem to recall going to meet the Plaid Minister in charge of transport at the Bay in March 2008 regarding getting enhanced services on the Cambrian it was pointed out that it would benefit certain areas of the west Wales coast (that vote Plaid not said out loud at meeting!). The cheque book came out for Dovey Junction loop and Welshpool to Fron double track not much later.....

It will be a political decision.

It would be political suicide. Dovey and Fron were peanuts compared to this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I still remain surprised that none of the forum members who call for aspirational rail re-openings that are usually bereft of the possibility of very large amounts of finance to achieve their aim have not looked at quite a long-ish closed railway in Wales and have suggested the re-opening of the Mid-Wales Railway that once linked Brecon to Newtown (Powys).

 

[Gareth Marston]

I still remain surprised that none of the forum members who call for aspirational rail re-openings that are usually bereft of the possibility of very large amounts of finance to achieve their aim have not looked at quite a long-ish closed railway in Wales and have suggested the re-opening of the Mid-Wales Railway that once linked Brecon to Newtown (Powys).

Certainly reconnecting Brecon southward has been suggested by Counciloors in the Brecon area.

More population this way than Middle Ceredigion.

 

[PHILIPE]

Certainly reconnecting Brecon southward has been suggested by Counciloors in the Brecon area.

More population this way than Middle Ceredigion.

Brecon Councillors perhaps, yes, but Powys C.C. couldn't care less about rail travel. They don't attempt to fit in bus timetables to connect with rail at all, which is more important in area with sparsely scattered rail services. Unless anything has altered, there is not even a bus stop at Welshpool station.

 

[Envoy]

Certainly reconnecting Brecon southward has been suggested by Counciloors in the Brecon area.

More population this way than Middle Ceredigion.

The railway south from Brecon (to Merthyr & beyond), had to get through the Brecon Beacons and went via Talybont-on-Usk and then up to the highest railway tunnel in the UK - at Torpantau before following what is now the Brecon Mountain Steam Railway. Apart from being very scenic, time wise the A470 is much quicker. (You can travel most of the route at 50 to 60 mph - traffic & sheep permitting).

Another railway did go SW to Neath / Swansea.

 

[Llanigraham]

I still remain surprised that none of the forum members who call for aspirational rail re-openings that are usually bereft of the possibility of very large amounts of finance to achieve their aim have not looked at quite a long-ish closed railway in Wales and have suggested the re-opening of the Mid-Wales Railway that once linked Brecon to Newtown (Powys).

Perhaps because they actually realise that it would be almost impossible to do it now, since a huge amount of the line has been used for other things and completely obliterated, and because even when it was open it ended up as a white elephant. It was slow, hilly, and single tracked.

(And my house is almost in the way!! )