TOC-specific walk-on fares

[yorkie]

We know that some flows have route-specific fares, and some have TOC-specific fares.

Normally, these fares are lower than the "Any permitted" fares.

But there are some examples of route specific fares that are higher than the any permitted. In these cases they are valid via the specified route AND also by all permitted routes. (usually this is to allow a route that would not normally be valid).

Does anyone know of any existing TOC specific fares that are priced HIGHER than the any permitted?

Also, does anyone know of any walk-on 'TOC and connections' tickets?

 

[rail-britain]

I was under the impression that members of ATOC were no longer permitted sell "TOC restricted" tickets, unless they are for promotional purposes

It would pretty much be the case that any ticket purchased and compared against NXEC would be more expensive
Compare :
£69.50 SAS
£61.85 SAS on NXEC

In most cases route specific are more expensive as the journey is longer, either in time or distance
An example is Perth - Inverness, where the via Aberdeen is more expensive

I'll have a look at Glasgow - Newcastle, as clearly this can be done via Carlisle or Edinburgh, and equally in either direction!
There is also the option to extend the via Carlisle to be via Lockerbie or via Dumfries, again there may be a restriction on that

 

[dan_atki]

I was under the impression that members of ATOC were no longer permitted sell "TOC restricted" tickets, unless they are for promotional purposes

Maybe they don't define the route as 'First Cap Con Only' etc (except Gatwick Express) any more but more the routed station on the ticket restricts the operator anyway - maybe the TOCs' way out?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ooooo found one

London Terminals to East Garforth (at least under NFM95) was more expensive via York than 'Any Permitted'.

From Avantix: Any Permitted SOS was £87.50 and route York was £92.00.

EDIT: Example of a TOC specific walk on fare is East Croydon to Brighton routed 'FCC only' - CDR cheaper than the 'Any Permitted' (sadly not a 'FCC + Connections' though)

 

[yorkie]

ahh but, what you need to find is either:

TOC specific fare that costs MORE than any permitted

or I am also loking for:

TOC specific walk on fare that has the "and connections" suffix.

I could be wrong but my theory is that there are none of either of these examples currently.

 

[dan_atki]

just found one on NFM95 - London Terminals to BTN - FCC Only SDS was MORE than Any Permitted SDS by 60p (why I dunno)

EDIT: also applying to the SDR but other ticket types on this route are such that the FCC Only is cheaper than the Any Permitted.

 

[yorkie]

I was under the impression that members of ATOC were no longer permitted sell "TOC restricted" tickets, unless they are for promotional purposes

substitute "members of atoc" for "The toc that sets the any permitted fares for that flow" and you are correct. eg: nxec can't do a nxec only pbo-kgx but fcc can't do a fcc only svg-kgx.

In most cases route specific are more expensive as the journey is longer...

yes that is normally the reason, I can think of loads of examples like that but none that are TOC specific.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

just found one on NFM95 - London Terminals to BTN - FCC Only SDS was MORE than Any Permitted SDS by 60p (why I dunno)

well done; I suspect its a mistake though given that the rtn tickets cost less, I think fcc need to be contacted to clarify. see if you can find any more

 

[dan_atki]

well done; I suspect its a mistake though given that the rtn tickets cost less, I think fcc need to be contacted to clarify. see if you can find any more

LESS!? by NFM95 the SDR for FCC Only was about £9 more expensive than the Any Permitted! I suspect that's been changed now.

I'll keep looking for the '+ Connections'! (May be here a long time if your theory's correct).

EDIT: I think you're correct with the '+ Connections' - seem to only be offered by EMT, XC, Virgin, and NXEC (I assume going off of Avantix yet again - someone needs to let the latest version out again!). They seem to be used so that people near to these networks but not quite can also use the advance fares - say Finsbury Park to York routed '+GNER & CONNECTNS' enabling people to use FCC/LU services to KGX (presumably also SVG) to take advantage of the advance purchase fares.

Ah ha I think I see what you're getting at actually.

Not sure if you'll allow this but the same applied for all 'London Terminals' to stations south of Haywards Heath with the FCC routeing over the Any Permitted.

 

[rail-britain]

just found one on NFM95 - London Terminals to BTN - FCC Only SDS was MORE than Any Permitted SDS by 60p (why I dunno)

London - Brighton : FCC only
It would appear the higher fare is to persuade passengers to use the Southern service instead
Presumably for capacity reasons
Makes sense when read with this :
http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/t...to-introduce-measures-to-relieve-overcrowding
Looks like FCC services are there for competition reasons and fares are weighted accordingly

 

[Mojo]

Are there not some TOC-Specific tickets that cost more, but include add-ons such as parking or breakfast vouchers (usually aimed at the business market)?

 

[rail-britain]

Perhaps it's time to look at SPG or FPG tickets then, as they would come into that category
All the stations I have been to either the parking is :
free
or
pay and display
Not sure how SPG or FPG works, never had to even look at

Another group of tickets are 1IR and FPB

I assume all of the above only apply to EMT

I've also found some megatrain.com fares that are higher than AP "ANY Permitted", which seems quite strange

 

[OwlMan]

I have found an advance ticket dearer than a Standard day single

20 Aug Northampton - Nuneaton
dep 21-58 arr 23-33 (change Rugby)

SDS £10-40
Advance 2nd single - £11

Peter

 

[me123]

I'll have a look at Glasgow - Newcastle, as clearly this can be done via Carlisle or Edinburgh, and equally in either direction!
There is also the option to extend the via Carlisle to be via Lockerbie or via Dumfries, again there may be a restriction on that

GLC-NCL via CAR is not a ticket AIUI. The "Any Permitted" option does allow this as a route, however. It is much much cheaper to split at Carlisle; saves you about £20 a go hock: It's a wonder people take NXEC between Glasgow and Newcastle given that price difference.

In most cases route specific are more expensive as the journey is longer, either in time or distance

Glasgow to Carlisle: via Dumfries is cheaper even though it is longer in both time and distance IIRC.

Also, GLC-PRE route CAR is cheaper than the any permitted. Although, AIUI, any permitted for this route allows travel down the ECML as well :???:

 

[rail-britain]

GLC-NCL via CAR is not a ticket AIUI. The "Any Permitted" option does allow this as a route, however. It is much much cheaper to split at Carlisle; saves you about £20 a go hock: It's a wonder people take NXEC between Glasgow and Newcastle given that price difference

I've just checked both GLC - NCL on both types and they have the same fare
Saver is £53.00
Open Return is £57.00

Option 1 :
Glasgow Central or Queen Street - Edinburgh - Newcastle

Option 2 :
Glasgow Central - Carlisle - Newcastle

I do agree it may be possible to save a lot by splitting tickets at Carlisle
However, I've done this trip quite a few times on "ANY Permitted route" tickets and never had any problems

Also, GLC-PRE route CAR is cheaper than the any permitted. Although, AIUI, any permitted for this route allows travel down the ECML as well :???:

I've just looked back at all my GLC - PRE tickets and they are "Virgin XC only"
That's the cheapest fare I could find, albeit AP FC at £21

 

[me123]

However, I've done this trip quiet a few times on "ANY Permitted route" tickets and never had any problems

Err... Yes that's what I would expect given that it's shown in the routeing guide. What I said was that there was not a ticket "Glasgow-Newcastle route Carlisle" available, but the route is covered by the "Any permitted" ticket.

 

[rail-britain]

Why be bothered about the fare scheme realignment anyway?
It's all a con, from beginning to end, conversion from :
pounds, shillings, and pence to pounds and new pence
gallons to litres
pounds to euros
savers to off peak

There were complaints when SuperSavers disappeared
There used to be the Apex and SuperApex, but in essence these are still available as the Advance Purchase (with varying fare levels)

No doubt when we get back to a basic fare structure leisure passenger numbers will fall and some new fangled fare name will come along
Perhaps the anti-jet fare!

 

[John @ home]

I've just looked back at all my GLC - PRE tickets and they are "Virgin XC only" That's the cheapest fare I could find, albeit AP FC at £21

I think me123 may have been referring to the Cheap Day Return from Glasgow Central/Queen Street to Preston route Carlisle, which is £27.30.

John

 

[rail-britain]

A Cheap Day Return at £27.30
I'll look into that one, although can't see how there would be a route restriction on that

 

[me123]

Yup, that's the one. CDR had "route Carlisle" on the ticket. I assume that there's an "any permitted" ticket, although that's likely to be a Saver Return now that I think about it.

 

[rail-britain]

Yes, there are other returns available
The Saver Return at £54.00 and £76.10
The Open Return at £87.00 and £169.00
Presumably the first one is via Carlisle and the second one is "Any Permitted", although how else would you get between Glasgow and Preston (via Dumfries or via Newcastle and Leeds?)
The APSC "Virgin Trains only" at £21.00 return

I've just notied that Open Returns have to be used on dates specified, whereas Saver Returns have the return ticket valid for any date within one month
Yeeha, that's going to cause confusion!

 

[dan_atki]

I've just notied that Open Returns have to be used on dates specified, whereas Saver Returns have the return ticket valid for any date within one month
Yeeha, that's going to cause confusion!

Sorry, what's your source for that statement: 'Open Returns have to be used on dates specified'? :?

SORs offer the most unrestrictive return ticket that is valid for a month (same as the SDR being valid at any time in one day). An SOR is, in effect, a SVR but without 'must not travel before xxxx' restrictions. After all, the 'open' in the name would be a bit of a lie if you did actually have to travel on the dates specified.

In response to me123 - standard fares for Glasgow Central to Preston (in NFM95)
route Carlisle: SOR, SOS, SVR, CDR, SVH
route Any Permitted: SOR, SVS, SOS, SVR

 

[yorkie]

LESS!? by NFM95 the SDR for FCC Only was about £9 more expensive than the Any Permitted! I suspect that's been changed now.

Apologies; I misread it, I see you put "also applying to the SDR". Now, the FCC only fares appear to be the same price (according to thetrainline). Ticket office staff are obliged to offer the best ticket, and given that it is no cheaper for a restrictive ticket it would, as far as I can see, be against the rules for staff to offer this ticket.

EDIT: I think you're correct with the '+ Connections' - seem to only be offered by EMT, XC, Virgin, and NXEC (I assume going off of Avantix yet again - someone needs to let the latest version out again!). They seem to be used so that people near to these networks but not quite can also use the advance fares - say Finsbury Park to York routed '+GNER & CONNECTNS' enabling people to use FCC/LU services to KGX (presumably also SVG) to take advantage of the advance purchase fares.

OK I will reveal it now: Glasgow (and surrounding area) has a 'Business Saver' to London routed "NXEC and Connections". This is to become 'Off Peak'. The existing Saver will ALSO be called Off Peak!!!

I have some questions about this ticket:

1) As it costs more than the "Any permitted"; is it valid via any permitted route? If it were Route "Berwick" it would be! But this is TOC-specific and this scenario appears to be undocumented anywhere.

2) If it is not valid via the WCML, it is useless, given the extortionate price. Why have it?

3) In the new fare system, a Off Peak from London to Larbert or Falkirk is valid at any time (price £158-50), a Off Peak from London to Croy (just one stop away!) is NOT valid out of King's Cross at peak time (price £102-90). How is this simple compared to the old system of Saver/Business Saver, how can this be enforced? (There is NOTHING printed on the tickets to differentiate them!)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry, what's your source for that statement: 'Open Returns have to be used on dates specified'? :?

SORs are valid for 1 month (both portions)

But the replacement product, Anytime, is only valid on the outward portion for ONE DAY. You can, however, break the journey overnight in which case you have to resume it by 1200 the next day and from then on no further break is allowed. Return is within 1 month. Fares have not gone down to compensate from this massive loss of flexibility. :neutral:

The Off Peak fares have the same rules as Anytime, as detailed above, valid for 1 day (out) and 1 month (rtn) including valid for BoJ.

 

[John @ home]

Glasgow (and surrounding area) has a 'Business Saver' to London routed "NXEC and Connections". This is to become 'Off Peak'. The existing Saver will ALSO be called Off Peak!!!

So presumably the existing Saver becomes "Super Off-Peak". ATOC's "Fares Made Simple - Travel Agent Retail Briefing" states:

Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheapest fare with the most travel restrictions will be called Super Off-Peak.

The full briefing is here:
http://www.atoctravelagents.org/cli...il Brief - Phase 2 - Travel Agents 290708.pdf

 

[dan_atki]

OK I will reveal it now: Glasgow (and surrounding area) has a 'Business Saver' to London routed "NXEC and Connections". This is to become 'Off Peak'. The existing Saver will ALSO be called Off Peak!!!

OK I was barking up the wrong tree as it were . My line of thought was such that (if walkup did exist) why would operators on the 'connections' sell these tickets over the Any Permitted fares. The '& Connections' tickets are only there to allow people close to but not directly on the 'longer distance' TOCs to take advantage of advance fares. Many people would prefer to have just one ticket for their journey so would not choose to/know about splitting - leaving just the Any Permitted (or other appropriate routeings) available for them.
Customer close-to-but-not-on-'long-distance'-TOC-network wants advance ticket + TOC wants money which they may not get by high walk up 'Any Permitted' fares = '& Connections' tickets existing.

SORs are valid for 1 month (both portions)

But the replacement product, Anytime, is only valid on the outward portion for ONE DAY. You can, however, break the journey overnight in which case you have to resume it by 1200 the next day and from then on no further break is allowed. Return is within 1 month. Fares have not gone down to compensate from this massive loss of flexibility. :neutral:

The Off Peak fares have the same rules as Anytime, as detailed above, valid for 1 day (out) and 1 month (rtn) including valid for BoJ.

Yeah I read about the Anytime validities too but I took the above post to mean about the current validity of the return portions of SORs (rather than the future validity of outward portions) as having to be used on a set day. :?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1) As it costs more than the "Any permitted"; is it valid via any permitted route? If it were Route "Berwick" it would be! But this is TOC-specific and this scenario appears to be undocumented anywhere.

It's weird - these 'valid by one TOC only but with higher fares' scenarios seem to be coming all the more common. I wonder what ATOC would have to say about these tickets and the use of them on lower priced 'Any Permitted' routes of different operators (and the subsequent action taken against you for doing so).

Back in the days of NFM95 I wonder if people did get away with using London Terminals to Brighton route Any Permitted SDRs on FCC services from London Bridge.

Just on Avantix 95 again I think it's worth saying that yet another obscurity has come up:
London Terminals to Brighton Any Permitted SDR: £20.70
London Terminals to Brighton FCC only SDR: £29.00
London Bridge to Brighton FCC only SDR: £29.00
London Blackfriars to Brighton Any Permitted SDR: £29.00

So, in conclusion there is no 'Any Permitted' from LBG... (what if I don't want to use FCC and would rather get SN to ECR and another to BTN?) and things are further complicated by the routeing on the ticket from Blackfriars...
Avantix would also have it that tickets are issued with those exact stations and routes on them (i.e. the BFR-BTN does not magically become a 'London Terminals' to BTN but actually has BFR on it).
Another thing of note then is that there is no specific London Victoria to Brighton Any Permitted/Southern only tickets but here 'London Terminals' applies. Guess it shows that TOCs don't work with each other regarding their fares (along with the FCC/Southeastern issue over AFK and who sets the fares to TL north stations...)

I'll have to start experimenting with nationalrail, NXEC, and thetrainline in the morning to see if things are any better over twelve months later with these tickets.

 

[jv3531]

Heathrow Exp is a TOC only fare. You can buy the supplement if no through fare is shown in NFM which does save you some money. Any permitted is via Piccadilly line as it is not valid on HEX without the supplement. Gat Exp tickets marked "Gat Exp Only" again are higher then any permitted as any permitted are only valid on SC/FGW where appropriate . There is was also an "SC Only " CDR available during south central days which made the any permitted slightly dearer, not sure if this was changed to southern on takeover though. The same applies to Stan EX, where buy the TOC only is dearer thatn the any permitted although I think you can stil get the "add-on" to normal Liverpool St Stn fares if no fare is shown.

 

[me123]

In response to me123 - standard fares for Glasgow Central to Preston (in NFM95)
route Carlisle: SOR, SOS, SVR, CDR, SVH
route Any Permitted: SOR, SVS, SOS, SVR

Thanks Dan; I dunno why I thought there was an "any permitted" CDR floating around out there :? The routeing guide shows routes via the ECML as I thought, allowing you to change onto TPE services (ER+TP).

Anyway, the GLC-PRE CDR is a bloody great ticket, anyway. Although it rules out ECML travel, you can still travel via Workington and Kilmarnock, as shown on map LM.

 

[jopsuk]

Cambridge-"London Terminals", there's a cheaper ticket marked "NXEA Only" (officially valid, according to the poster in the ticket office, to Liverpool Street, Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters and Stratford).

 

[dan_atki]

The 'Kensington Olympia' related discussion has been moved to http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19277 to avoid taking over this thread.

 

[dan_atki]

Some of the routeings on tickets nowadays are very odd. The example I quoted above route 'York' for a London Terminals to East Garforth ticket, because of its price, allows you to travel on any route you like in the routeing guide (and additionally a reasonable route via York if you so wish) - doesn't mean in any way you *must* go via York (maybe the routes should be Any Permitted and Not York with appropriate RG amendments - that argument can be left for another day though).

Incidentally with the 'FCC only' ticket I mentioned above too - I wonder what the case would be if I happened to use that on a Southern train. This debate's been had before (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18253) but say the guard, unaware of such official excessing restrictions, said they'd excess it for me... checks the machine and shock horror! Southern is cheaper - £0.00 excess. They can't stop me from using the service in that case. Plain barmy when the ticket clearly says 'FCC Only'.

 

[yorkie]

So presumably the existing Saver becomes "Super Off-Peak". ATOC's "Fares Made Simple - Travel Agent Retail Briefing" states,...

The existing Saver for Glasgow-London is called Off Peak and has no restrictions other than for journeys via King's Cross. There are two Off Peak tickets; the old Business Saver has exactly the same name as the old Saver, both called "Off Peak". The differences are:
- the restriction code (not publicly available)
- NXEC Only vs. Any Permited

From Edinburgh, the tickets are both "Any Permitted" but the more restrictive one is called Super Off Peak.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Back in the days of NFM95 I wonder if people did get away with using London Terminals to Brighton route Any Permitted SDRs on FCC services from London Bridge.

It would have certainly been valid! I doubt anyone bought the FCC only fares (surely?!)

Guess it shows that TOCs don't work with each other regarding their fares (along with the FCC/Southeastern issue over AFK and who sets the fares to TL north stations...)

In theory they are not allowed to collude as it is anti-competetive. In some cases they do not collude and it can create fare wars that result in TOC-specific fares being undercut by Any Permitted fares. The TOC specific fares then become defunct but remain in the system for a while. A high-profile example is Cardiff to Swansea, where FGW introduced a very cheap FGW only fare, which they announced a few days before the fare changes applied. ATW responded by lowering the Any permitted just before the deadline. FGW's fares were then in the system but defunct. The same has probably happened here.

Sadly, the TOCs do sometimes engage in illegal anti-competetive practices by colluding. See this article however the Government supports such practices so chooses to take no action, the reason being that Government would rather fares stayed high rather than a fare war resulting in lower fares for passengers.

 

[rail-britain]

Sorry, what's your source for that statement: 'Open Returns have to be used on dates specified'?

I've checked back on some recent bookings and when you check ticket types, the descriptions have now been updated
From trainsfares.co.uk :
http://www.firsttranspennine.trains...trix/display_ticket_terms.asp?ticket_type=SOR
For journeys after 7th September, your outward journey must be made on the date specified, prior to 7th September it can be made up to one calendar month after the date specified