Class 387

[Fincra5]

Replacing the 442s was not being discussed publicly until the GoVia bid details appeared. I think most people were surprised on the day. I don't recall it being an explicit requirement of the ITT.

I don't think it was. But I know the spares are getting harder and more costly to come across for 442 units.

Govia have enough Electrostar parts to build their own fleet of trains!

 

[47802]

As an 'airport express' train, are the Class 379s any better in this regard? I am not familiar with the on-board stowage arrangement for trains originating at a UK airport.

No not really a 387 has 2 luggage racks per carriage except the disabled loo one which only has one, I believe this is similar to a 379 except for the 1st class carriage which I think has at least a double width Luggage rack instead of a single width luggage rack extra.

And the fact I have looked that up shows how bored I am this xmas eve.:roll:

I have to admit I am perplexed as to why the 1st class seating isn't better even on the original 387 fleet as even on the Daft specified 700's the 1st class is better, and the 387's were supposed to be specified by Southern on Daft's behalf.

 

[physics34]

No not really a 387 has 2 luggage racks per carriage except the disabled loo one which only has one, I believe this is similar to a 379 except for the 1st class carriage which I think has at least a double width Luggage rack instead of a single width luggage rack extra.

And the fact I have looked that up shows how bored I am this xmas eve.:roll:

I have to admit I am perplexed as to why the 1st class seating isn't better even on the original 387 fleet as even on the Daft specified 700's the 1st class is better, and the 387's were supposed to be specified by Southern on Daft's behalf.

doesnt make sense does it?!! And strange how franchise requirements can be specified at the time of tendering etc etc.....

Id imagine they even have the power now to wave their finger and say "put in more luggage racks and decent 1st class".

SO i take it no one mentioned that any new gatwick express stock should have more luggage space than your average two-bob metro train.

Who are these useless people in the DfT?

 

[jon0844]

It was commented on when the 379s came that there wasn't much luggage space. If you've ever been on one out of Liverpool Street when it's busy, you'll see bags down the aisles, on seats and all in the vestibules*. It's a case of once everyone is on, you're staying on until the end (and, to be fair, for Stansted trains that's mostly what people are doing).

* chances are there's still room at the far end of a 8 car set mind, but that's another matter.

 

[absolutelymilk]

When will all the 387/2s be in service? Are we looking at May 2016, meaning most 319s are surplus by then as the 700s also should be entering service soon with testing now underway?

Not sure anyone answered this, does anyone know what the service entry dates are?

 

[southern442]

No not really a 387 has 2 luggage racks per carriage except the disabled loo one which only has one, I believe this is similar to a 379 except for the 1st class carriage which I think has at least a double width Luggage rack instead of a single width luggage rack extra.

And the fact I have looked that up shows how bored I am this xmas eve.:roll:

I have to admit I am perplexed as to why the 1st class seating isn't better even on the original 387 fleet as even on the Daft specified 700's the 1st class is better, and the 387's were supposed to be specified by Southern on Daft's behalf.

The 379's could have more luggage space, but apart from that they are much better than a 387 as the standard class is more comfortable and first class is actually different (see DafT, it's not that difficult is it) so it caters more towards the airport traveler overall.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think it came as a surprise. Although not explicitly required to replace the 442s the ITT strongly hinted at it by saying that they would be interested to see bids with rolling stock more suited to the needs of airport passengers as a way of exceeding the requirements.

Yeah, but not many people believed that, because they all think that the sun shines out of a 442 gangway door...

 

[Class377/5]

Not sure anyone answered this, does anyone know what the service entry dates are?

It's not yet in the public domain. But early 2016, however it'll have nothing to do with the 319 withdrawal which stay in in part until 2017.

Will point central to the business case of the 387/2 was extending the GatEx service to Brighton all day. The GatEx part didn't generate enough on its own.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

When have 8-car 387/1's been allowed around the Sutton loop? I saw an 8-car today on the Luton - Sutton circuit

 

[Bald Rick]

When have 8-car 387/1's been allowed around the Sutton loop? I saw an 8-car today on the Luton - Sutton circuit

They've been on it for a couple of months.

 

[Class377/5]

They've been on it for a couple of months.

Techinally, the 387s were only booked from the December timetable change. Prior its the 377s were used a few months ago.

There was a four car working over the summer of a 387 around the Loop, but goodness knows who organised that

 

[GatwickDepress]

Seeing a four car 387 is very strange. They're the kind of unit you can't imagine not running in multiple!

 

[southern442]

Seeing a four car 387 is very strange. They're the kind of unit you can't imagine not running in multiple!

Seeing a 12-car one is not quite right on the eye either. My eye has become accustomed to the idea that they might just secretly be 8-car fixed formations

 

[Keith Jarrett]

When have 8-car 387/1's been allowed around the Sutton loop? I saw an 8-car today on the Luton - Sutton circuit

Whether or not they were allowed then, 387119+387120 worked vice 8*37 on 1O09/1O10 on 7 October 2015. It was one morning after Thameslink had gone totally t1ts up the previous evening and I was told that there were simply no 377s that could be swapped onto the diagram.

 

[317 forever]

I hope the 387/2s will be in service soon, potentially in time for the May timetable. With plans for the 700s to send the 387/1s away soon, we won't have long to ride 387/1s and 387/2s to Gatwick on the same day!

 

[southern442]

I hope the 387/2s will be in service soon, potentially in time for the May timetable. With plans for the 700s to send the 387/1s away soon, we won't have long to ride 387/1s and 387/2s to Gatwick on the same day!

Once you've ridden on one you will be hoping for the 442's back...

 

[Class377/5]

Once you've ridden on one you will be hoping for the 442's back...

I'll stick with the 387 thanks. 442 are not comfortable for everyone.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Once you've ridden on one you will be hoping for the 442's back...

Have you ever seen a 442 in the morning peak at Gatwick? I cannot wait for them to be scrapped. They are totally useless for the role they have ended up playing, there is just no space.

 

[physics34]

Have you ever seen a 442 in the morning peak at Gatwick? I cannot wait for them to be scrapped. They are totally useless for the role they have ended up playing, there is just no space.

agree that they are totally not good for the gatwick role, but comfort wise they are better than the electrostar family.

Mk3 superior ride quality.

 

[andrewkeith5]

agree that they are totally not good for the gatwick role, but comfort wise they are better than the electrostar family.



Mk3 superior ride quality.

They are perfect for the Gatwick Express role - lots of luggage space, intercity layout, comfortable and GatEx doesn't really need standing space

They are totally terrible for the Brighton Express Southern Railway "we don't care about you if you don't live in Brighton" services... Services which are full and standing by the time they get to Gatwick meaning that they are totally useless for the role they are supposed to be used on - i.e. Shuttling travellers from Gatwick to London and back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the Junipers were much better suited - InterCity interior but suburban door layout. They were mad to get rid of them.

 

[Domh245]

They are perfect for the Gatwick Express role - lots of luggage space, intercity layout, comfortable and GatEx doesn't really need standing space

They are totally terrible for the Brighton Express Southern Railway "we don't care about you if you don't live in Brighton" services... Services which are full and standing by the time they get to Gatwick meaning that they are totally useless for the role they are supposed to be used on - i.e. Shuttling travellers from Gatwick to London and back.

And tiny doors that cause issues when you try and get luggage through them!

 

[physics34]

I think the Junipers were much better suited - InterCity interior but suburban door layout. They were mad to get rid of them.

agree. The 442s should have stayed on the pooles/weymouths too. Whoever made this decision at the time cost the railway alot of money!

I suppose the 460 fleet was not big enough to cope with the DfTs plan to extend Gatwicks to Brighton in the peak in 2010 (?), but this fleet shouldve just been complimented by a small fleet of 377s converted to GatEx standards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or just not extend it to Brighton. The *whole point* is a stress free airport service with luggage space to keep bags and clueless tourists off commuter trains. Which is why the Southern Only tickets also need to go.

 

[physics34]

Or just not extend it to Brighton. The *whole point* is a stress free airport service with luggage space to keep bags and clueless tourists off commuter trains. Which is why the Southern Only tickets also need to go.

agree to a point but there was the issue of virtually empty gatex services taking up slots in the peak times.

Maybe better timetabling could have resolved this though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or just not extend it to Brighton.

There wasn't sufficient BML capacity to retain an airport only service, and that's why DfT transferred it to Southern and extended it to Brighton in the peaks from about 2007, following consultation almost ten years ago now.

It was the resulting decision to keep some sort of 'half and half' dedicated service (to suit the airport owner) that is the main cause of the ongoing issues.

 

[urpert]

I suppose the 460 fleet was not big enough to cope with the DfTs plan to extend Gatwicks to Brighton in the peak in 2010 (?), but this fleet shouldve just been complimented by a small fleet of 377s converted to GatEx standards.

Or by sending some 458s the other way and buying a few more Desiros for SWT.

 

[physics34]

Or by sending some 458s the other way and buying a few more Desiros for SWT.

yep, that wouldve worked. Actually think there was a rumour of that at some point.

 

[JonathanH]

yep, that wouldve worked. Actually think there was a rumour of that at some point.

458s 8001 and 8002 were modified (in a minor way) for use by Gatwick Express having moved in July 2006 but I don't think they ever worked for them before going back to South West Trains for the reintroduction of the 458 fleet from early 2007. At least one of them had internal evidence in the internal trunking below the windows of having been fitted with luggage stacks.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Actually think there was a rumour of that at some point.

Of course there was. Back in 2006 the whole 458 fleet was about to go off lease, one reason being brinkmanship over the PIS displays being 2 mm out of tolerance or something.

Various rail forums probably had page after page of rumours, many of them started by forum members, probably comparable with the situation regarding 442s today...