Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[sprinterguy]

Definitely some exceptions! There's prototype Deltic models, and Helijan (if i remember correctly and have spelt that correctly!) had a limited edition model of the "Super 47" loco that was later sold to the Soviet Union.

And how many years did we have to wait before RTR models of the prototype "Deltic" and "Kestrel" became available? Fifty-odd years? Don't hold your breath on a 230 model.

I'm confident that a commercial ready to run model of the class 89 has yet to be produced in 00 gauge - it's only available in kit form, although Silver Fox, the producers of the kits, will sell them prebuilt and painted to order.

 

[47802]

Well if they do produce an '00' Model will it be as a D78 with an optional kit to turn into a 230

Just been reading some of the Vivarail news, apparently it was a good year for them at the start of the year they had a D78 and now they have a 'Brand New' Class 230 Hmm note the term 'Brand New' and where's the other half of it?

They have embraced stop start technology apparently or more likely it happens to come with the engines they have bought.

In Vivarails mind they are new apparently, but unfortunately maybe not in many other peoples mind

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is this British obsession with new kit? It also applies to cars, buses etc.

What is wrong with quality refurbishments? Crikey, DB managed to fool me in the 1990s with 1960s Silberling hauled stock refurbished to look brand new. You really couldn't tell other than that it had slam doors. You could say the same of fGW HST stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well if they do produce an '00' Model will it be as a D78 with an optional kit to turn into a 230

Just been reading some of the Vivarail news, apparently it was a good year for them at the start of the year they had a D78 and now they have a 'Brand New' Class 230 Hmm note the term 'Brand New' and where's the other half of it?

They have embraced stop start technology apparently or more likely it happens to come with the engines they have bought.

In Vivarails mind they are new apparently, but unfortunately maybe not in many other peoples mind

Whilst looking for models of unique or very limited stock online, I also saw a scratchbuilt 141, which made me wish I had the space, skills, and finances to do similar!

As for your second point (and getting back on topic!) I feel Vivarail are over-egging the pudding by claiming that the units are "brand new" if indeed they are. As a concept I'm in favour of the units but trying to pass them off as something they clearly aren't is going to seem like they're trying to polish a Douglas... Rather like putting go-faster stripes and a body-kit on a Morris Minor!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As built:

Refurb:

Might as well be new?

 

[southern442]

What is this British obsession with new kit? It also applies to cars, buses etc.

What is wrong with quality refurbishments? Crikey, DB managed to fool me in the 1990s with 1960s Silberling hauled stock refurbished to look brand new. You really couldn't tell other than that it had slam doors. You could say the same of fGW HST stock.

A lot of people also thought the same of the 455 Southern and SWT refurbishments.

 

[47802]

What is this British obsession with new kit? It also applies to cars, buses etc.

What is wrong with quality refurbishments? Crikey, DB managed to fool me in the 1990s with 1960s Silberling hauled stock refurbished to look brand new. You really couldn't tell other than that it had slam doors. You could say the same of fGW HST stock.

Refurb is one thing and there will still be a lot of fairly old trains in that category on Northern, turning an old Light Rail EMU into a DEMU and then trying to claim its new is another

 

[Bletchleyite]

Refurb is one thing and there will still be a lot of fairly old trains in that category on Northern, turning an old Light Rail EMU into a DEMU and then trying to claim its new is another

LUL is not light rail, FWIW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of people also thought the same of the 455 Southern and SWT refurbishments.

And the old fNW 150 refurb...for about 2 minutes. Things that gave that away were things like not cleaning the window frames properly, and painting over handrails and such rather than re-powder-coating them.

Add to that really odd ones like the Silverlink 321 refurb that changed everything except the well-worn seat covers.

 

[A0]

LUL is not light rail, FWIW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You beat me to it!

I was going to make the same point and note that when in use on the District line the D78s were interworking with Class 416s and Class 313s in the Richmond area. I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You beat me to it!

I was going to make the same point and note that when in use on the District line the D78s were interworking with Class 416s and Class 313s in the Richmond area. I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

The metro thing in Newcastle does

 

[47802]

You beat me to it!

I was going to make the same point and note that when in use on the District line the D78s were interworking with Class 416s and Class 313s in the Richmond area. I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

Whatever the technical definition is I would describe it as a light rail system and regardless the general point I was making about the 230 still stands.

 

[northwichcat]

And the old fNW 150 refurb...for about 2 minutes. Things that gave that away were things like not cleaning the window frames properly, and painting over handrails and such rather than re-powder-coating them.

Add to that really odd ones like the Silverlink 321 refurb that changed everything except the well-worn seat covers.

It was a bit strange the door controls got changed to accessible ones on the ex-ATN 150s when they were still in the original internal state, yet the FNW 150s which got refurbished kept the square buttons.

I think even without the news stories about Merseyrail looking at replacing their 'old' trains, people are less likely to see them as new than when they were first refurbished, now the PIS is more commonplace (which was one of the things that made them look modern) and non-air conditioned trains are becoming less common. In the future it might be that older trains will need their windows replacing and air conditioning fitted to fool the public in to thinking they are new trains.

With your mention of DB I remember on one journey getting an old single deck loco-hauled set, instead of the modern route branded double deckers that usually operated the service and my initial thought of the interior was it had nice comfortable seats. The next day I caught an almost new Alstom built train and thought it was OK and it would have been better if the seats were more comfortable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The metro thing in Newcastle does

And there soon will be between Rotherham and Sheffield.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You beat me to it!

I was going to make the same point and note that when in use on the District line the D78s were interworking with Class 416s and Class 313s in the Richmond area. I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

There's the T&W Metro as mentioned by HMS Ark Royal, and soon(ish) the Sheffield to Rotherham tram-train...

 

[urpert]

Might as well be new?

I'd say the InterRegio refurb (from old compartment stock) was even more impressive:

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of people also thought the same of the 455 Southern and SWT refurbishments.

I still have a very soft spot for the 317/6 (which I commuted on very comfortably for a year). Great livery, too.

 

[Mikey C]

A lot of people also thought the same of the 455 Southern and SWT refurbishments.

The Coastway 313s are also vastly different to when they operated on the Silverlink lines. The Jaffa Cake refurbished 411s were quite a change from the original ones too...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think even without the news stories about Merseyrail looking at replacing their 'old' trains, people are less likely to see them as new than when they were first refurbished, now the PIS is more commonplace (which was one of the things that made them look modern) and non-air conditioned trains are becoming less common. In the future it might be that older trains will need their windows replacing and air conditioning fitted to fool the public in to thinking they are new trains.

They are looking quite tatty now, the main thing causing this being the way they used solid light diffusers which have now accumulated all sorts of crap from dead insects to staining from leaks. This always happens with this kind of design; the type of open diffuser used on e.g. Desiros works better in this regard.

 

[po8crg]

I don't believe there's anywhere in the UK where 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' share tracks?

Altrincham to Navigation Road on Metrolink is double track reduced to two single tracks, one for light rail and the other for heavy. I suppose there is the odd bit of metal that they both run over, though.

If you count ELR as heavy rail, then it connects to Metrolink near Bury, but I don't think that gets used for anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you count ELR as heavy rail, then it connects to Metrolink near Bury, but I don't think that gets used for anything.

The ELR provide motive power for Metrolink engineering trains. Once, the usual diesel had broken down, resulting in this...

http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/13791027.VIDEO__Steam_returns_to_Radcliffe_station/

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whatever the technical definition is I would describe it as a light rail system and regardless the general point I was making about the 230 still stands.

If your saying LUL is light rail then there must be a lot of light rail all over the UK. The frequency and weight/length of trains on London Underground (even if most of it is actually above ground) must surely be significantly more than a lot of lines outside London ?.

 

[southern442]

If your saying LUL is light rail then there must be a lot of light rail all over the UK. The frequency and weight/length of trains on London Underground (even if most of it is actually above ground) must surely be significantly more than a lot of lines outside London ?.

I would say that the 'small profile' trains would class as light rail, but the large profile trains would not.

 

[D365]

I would say that the 'small profile' trains would class as light rail, but the large profile trains would not.

What about where the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines share track with London Overground and District/Metropolitan line trains?

We're going round in Circles really.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

What about where the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines share track with London Overground and District/Metropolitan line trains?

We're going round in Circles really.

We're in the right District

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

We're in the right District

A cause for Jubileetion, surely? But not Central to the main argument on this thread.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would say that the 'small profile' trains would class as light rail, but the large profile trains would not.

AIUI all of LU, whether referring to infrastructure or rolling stock, and whether sub surface or deep tube, are considered in the same 'underground rail' category by ORR.

This is a separate categorisation between mainline rail and light rail; LU and SPT (Glasgow Subway) are the only members of this category.

 

[The Ham]

A cause for Jubileetion, surely? But not Central to the main argument on this thread.

Which has lost its Northern focus.

 

[SeanG]

Altrincham to Navigation Road on Metrolink is double track reduced to two single tracks, one for light rail and the other for heavy. I suppose there is the odd bit of metal that they both run over, though.

If you count ELR as heavy rail, then it connects to Metrolink near Bury, but I don't think that gets used for anything.

Pelaw - Sunderland and previously Benton Jct - Fawdon (freight only)

 

[southern442]

This is a separate categorisation between mainline rail and light rail; LU and SPT (Glasgow Subway) are the only members of this category.

I would've thought that the Glasgow Subway would class as light rail, given its narrow gauge and small trains?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would've thought that the Glasgow Subway would class as light rail, given its narrow gauge and small trains?

But if you're looking for logic on the railways you're on a hiding to nothing!

 

[southern442]

But if you're looking for logic on the railways you're on a hiding to nothing!

*Cue all the debates asking why they called 230's and not 223's*

 

[D365]

*Cue all the debates asking why they called 230's and not 223's*

Same as why the Voyager classes 220-222 don't follow on directly from the Class 210 prototype...

:roll: