Someone used my details!

[rhythm_doctor]

To cut a long story short i have been issued a penalty notice to an address my parents live at, someone i used to hang around with when i was younger has used my details when caught on a train with no ticket, apparently they had a national insurance card of mine which i can only presume has been stolen from my parents when i was younger...

ITAL-UK are now informing me that as i do not wish to send them any personal documents of mine (not sure if i am legally obliged?) that It will now be passed to South West Trains for further action which may include either Prosecution, or collection by a Debt Collection Agency.

They told me that ID was produced and that they checked the electoral roll which i find hard to believe as i don't live at that address and am not on the electoral roll for that address, i even phoned the council to check in case i made a mistake, they have lied saying they had checked but no one has checked... The latest response they have now changed there story and said that the authorised collector tried to call there office but had no signal, 2 different conflicting stories...

As this is not the first instance my personal details have been used i am unprepared to willingly hand over any documents unless CCTV is provided, i do not want my details just kept on file for the next offender, i want this offender caught!

Am i legally obliged to hand over personal details?

 

[Darandio]

To cut a long story short i have been issued a penalty notice to an address my parents live at, someone i used to hang around with when i was younger has used my details when caught on a train with no ticket, apparently they had a national insurance card of mine which i can only presume has been stolen from my parents when i was younger...

How do you know this?

 

[221129]

To cut a long story short i have been issued a penalty notice to an address my parents live at, someone i used to hang around with when i was younger has used my details when caught on a train with no ticket, apparently they had a national insurance card of mine which i can only presume has been stolen from my parents when i was younger...

ITAL-UK are now informing me that as i do not wish to send them any personal documents of mine (not sure if i am legally obliged?) that It will now be passed to South West Trains for further action which may include either Prosecution, or collection by a Debt Collection Agency.

They told me that ID was produced and that they checked the electoral roll which i find hard to believe as i don't live at that address and am not on the electoral roll for that address, i even phoned the council to check in case i made a mistake, they have lied saying they had checked but no one has checked... The latest response they have now changed there story and said that the authorised collector tried to call there office but had no signal, 2 different conflicting stories...

As this is not the first instance my personal details have been used i am unprepared to willingly hand over any documents unless CCTV is provided, i do not want my details just kept on file for the next offender, i want this offender caught!

Am i legally obliged to hand over personal details?

No you are not obliged but it won't do you any help in not handing them over...

 

[SussexMan]

Am i legally obliged to hand over personal details?

What personal details are they asking for? I would suggest you co-operate with them but I'm not sure what personal details they are wanting. If you have some proof of where you were on the day/time in question then I would be sharing that with them. If you can show that at the time in question you couldn't have been at the location of the ticket check then that is in your best interest to share with them.

 

[rhythm_doctor]

How do you know this?

I don't know for sure, all i know is that my national insurance card was kept in a little wooden box at my mothers, i am just assuming

 

[rhythm_doctor]

What personal details are they asking for? I would suggest you co-operate with them but I'm not sure what personal details they are wanting. If you have some proof of where you were on the day/time in question then I would be sharing that with them. If you can show that at the time in question you couldn't have been at the location of the ticket check then that is in your best interest to share with them.

They have asked the following:

In order to assist with this please provide the following information:



1. Confirmation of your date of birth.

2. Please provide a copy of a document with your signature on, such as a driving licence, passport or a copy of the reverse of a debit/credit card.

3. Please provide a brief description of yourself, including height, build, hair colour and length, complexion, eye colour, right or left handed and any distinguishing features such as tattoos or piercings.

4. A National Insurance card was used for identification in this matter. We await your comments.


I have crossed referenced my movements on the day in question with my invoices and have now worked out i was actually at work on that day over 60 miles away in a van with a tracker, personal key fob operated and CCTV inside the van... I do not want to really give any personal documents to them just to go on file for the next offender, if they give me CCTV i will then give my driving licence and i can then let them know who the perpetrator is

 

[BestWestern]

They won't issue CCTV - there are a great many hoops that have to be jumped through to release footage; Data Protection and all that jazz. You may need to involve the British Transport Police, at which point the footage is likely to become available to them as there will be an investigation underway. Do consider the fact that railway issues do go into a Court of law, and can carry criminal convictions, and so involving the police in matters of associated identity fraud is perfectly reasonable. You would need to do this in conjunction with the Train Operating Company, informing them of your actions. That'd be where I'd look at going, anyhow.

 

[Hannes]

3. Please provide a brief description of yourself, including height, build, hair colour and length, complexion, eye colour, right or left handed and any distinguishing features such as tattoos or piercings.

Have they provided the description they currently have of the suspect? It'd be good to get that in writing from them before they find out your description!

 

[DaleCooper]

Has it not been said before, in similar threads, that the onus is on the TOC to prove that the OP is guilty and it is not for the OP to demonstrate their innocence?

 

[najaB]

Has it not been said before, in similar threads, that the onus is on the TOC to prove that the OP is guilty and it is not for the OP to demonstrate their innocence?

Yes, it is. But by the same token if you can turn a three-month ordeal into a three-day non-issue by providing a little information (which is largely a matter of public record) then why not?

 

[dviner]

They won't issue CCTV - there are a great many hoops that have to be jumped through to release footage; Data Protection and all that jazz.

From the Information Commissioners Office:

When can CCTV images be disclosed?

You have the right to see CCTV images of you and to ask for a copy of them. The organisation must provide them within 40 calendar days of your request, and you may be asked to pay a fee of up to £10 (this is the maximum charge, set by Parliament). This is called a Subject Access Request. You will need to provide details to help the operator to establish your identity as the person in the pictures, and to help them find the images on their system.

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/

 

[CheesyChips]

At first glance it would probably make sense to cooperate in the first instance, but in reality and in my experience working in law enforcement all you're doing is handing them the noose they're going to hang you with.

You're of course not obliged to say anything, even if you're asked to come in for an interview under caution.

If you have evidence that you weren't in the location when they say you were there:

A) In a criminal matter it could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you committed the offence if you weren't present.

B) If you're pursued through civil courts, I don't think any district judge would be satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you can incur a civil liability for travelling without a ticket on the railway if you were not travelling on the railway.

All I would tell them is that it was not you and you have evidence that you were not present at the time and place they claim. They have the option of looking stupid in front of a court if they want to pursue it.

 

[455driver]

As you are not willing to help SWT catch this person I can only assume you are happy for it to carry on, I am pretty sure that rail ticket offences will only be the start of it.
If I was in your position I would have already been onto the Police and I would be helping SWT (or their agent) toget this sorted quickly!

As you are stating that this isn't you why would they provide you with CCTV of somebody else?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I smell some wibble and someone trying the Shaggy defence...

If it really wasn't you, go to the police.

 

[dviner]

As you are stating that this isn't you why would they provide you with CCTV of somebody else?

I was thinking about this when I posted the quote from the ICO website, but I couldn't quite work out how to put it.

If you submit the Subject Access Request providing the time and date plus the interaction with the RPI as identification criteria - would a refusal to provide the footage on the basis that it (from their point of view) isn't you be sufficient to prove that you weren't there?

 

[Haywain]

Good grief! You can provide a signature and a description to them to establish that they don't match what's on the PF paperwork, and the matter will be closed as far as you are concerned. I cannot see why you wouldn't take this very easy option. Unless...

 

[tony6499]

Did you report the theft of the NI card ?

 

[rhythm_doctor]

Have they provided the description they currently have of the suspect? It'd be good to get that in writing from them before they find out your description!

They haven't provided me with a single thing and to be honest i really can't be arsed with it so have sent them a copy of my driving licence, i doubt they even have a description, is there actually CCTV, they are probably making that up aswell just as much as they said they checked the electoral roll, for the principle of the matter i really just want to fight it, but i have to much going on here and better things to do with my time, it's a shame as on previous occasions of taking on companies (esso & asda) both have backed down, i was even interviewed by BBC's Watchdog for the Esso one a few years ago...

 

[rhythm_doctor]

From the Information Commissioners Office:

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/

They won't disclose the CCTV though if it is not me will they...

 

[rhythm_doctor]

As you are not willing to help SWT catch this person I can only assume you are happy for it to carry on, I am pretty sure that rail ticket offences will only be the start of it.
If I was in your position I would have already been onto the Police and I would be helping SWT (or their agent) toget this sorted quickly!

As you are stating that this isn't you why would they provide you with CCTV of somebody else?

I am defintiely not happy for it to carry on, i want the culprit caught, what i don't want is them just putting my details on file and not pursuing it, i am trying to help identify who it is but they will not co operate!

 

[rhythm_doctor]

I smell some wibble and someone trying the Shaggy defence...

If it really wasn't you, go to the police.

The British Transport Police? I shall make enquiries tomorrow trust me...

 

[rhythm_doctor]

I was thinking about this when I posted the quote from the ICO website, but I couldn't quite work out how to put it.

If you submit the Subject Access Request providing the time and date plus the interaction with the RPI as identification criteria - would a refusal to provide the footage on the basis that it (from their point of view) isn't you be sufficient to prove that you weren't there?

You could not have worded that better, you guys sure know your stuff and it's forums like this that help the average joe out and give us a voice... Keep up the good work, i'm glad i posted this as hopefully it may give someone else in the same situation good advice...

 

[Phil.]

Straight to BTP and tell them that someone has commited fraud by claiming to be you. If you don't/won't it can only be that there is something fundamentally flawed in your assertion.

 

[ComUtoR]

Good grief! You can provide a signature and a description to them to establish that they don't match what's on the PF paperwork, and the matter will be closed as far as you are concerned. I cannot see why you wouldn't take this very easy option. Unless...

I'm a 6ft with short cropped hair. My DOB is 6th June 1966.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To cut a long story short i have been issued a penalty notice to an address my parents live at, someone i used to hang around with when i was younger has used my details . . . .


Am i legally obliged to hand over personal details?

There's quite a gulf between 'someone used my details' and 'legally obliged to hand over personal details'.

If you had taken this incident to a local law firm rather than an internet forum, then the answer would have been quite simple: 'No', let's not provide any personal details, and. no, there's no need for you to provide the evidence of what you were doing that day, and can we agree to take this opportunity to clearly deny that you were culpable of the alleged incident which the Company is investigating?

You are not accused and there is (apparently) no evidence of your guilt.

But additionally, and with your agreement, you could make some offer of further assistance which doesn't affect the above at all. You could agree to providing any documentary evidence which assists in identifying the person concerned.

It is entirely a matter for the Investigators to locate and make sense of any CCTV images that may still be available. Any difficulty in accessing them or in analysing them is entirely an issue for the Investigators - not you. You can offer to assist, and that would probably be limited to looking at still images and confirming whether or not you can identify anyone in those images and with what degree of confidence you do so. Or recalling personal details of someone who might have had access to your documentation. But this is quite separate from the question in front of you just now.

So much for the confrontational approach. Now . . . .
As others have quite rightly said, you could probably get this matter closed in a few minutes by one simple and constructive phone call.

[All of the above is based on the assumption that everything that you have menetioned here is entirely true, and that there are no additional factors which might suggest your implication in any railway fare evasion on that date or on any other date].

 

[TEW]

They haven't provided me with a single thing and to be honest i really can't be arsed with it so have sent them a copy of my driving licence, i doubt they even have a description, is there actually CCTV, they are probably making that up aswell just as much as they said they checked the electoral roll, for the principle of the matter i really just want to fight it, but i have to much going on here and better things to do with my time, it's a shame as on previous occasions of taking on companies (esso & asda) both have backed down, i was even interviewed by BBC's Watchdog for the Esso one a few years ago...

If a Penalty Fare was issued the inspector issuing it would have filled out a description of the person issued with the Penalty Fare on the back of their copy of the Penalty Fare.

 

[reb0118]

My DOB is 6th June 1966.

11th April 1967 was a much better date!

Back on topic. Personally, whilst you do not have to provide any details, IMO the more help you can give the TOC and/or the police in a) confirming that it wasn't you and b) providing useful intelligence on who you suspect is using your ID fraudulently can only help in a successful resolution to your predicament.

It is your choice however. Good luck in any case.

 

[cuccir]

Don't National Insurance cards have printed on them, quite prominently, something along the lines of "This is not a form of ID"?

 

[Clip]

Don't National Insurance cards have printed on them, quite prominently, something along the lines of "This is not a form of ID"?

I believe so yes. And they are not the hardest of cards to forge either.

 

[Haywain]

i am trying to help identify who it is but they will not co operate!

You don't seem to be the most willing participant in the process either!