TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[swt_passenger]

Finally what stock would TfL get, would SWT's make sure that the 707's are used only deployed on services that it is going to retrain and leave TfL with the older units or will TfL be fighting hard to have the newer trains?

SWT potentially wouldn't have any routes left suitable to use the 707s on if both TfL transfer and CR2 plans went ahead. Guildford via Effingham maybe? It has always seemed likely to me that the 455/456 fleet would be mostly redundant after CR2 anyway.

(BTW I think the T in SWT stands for Trains - so the apostrophe s is not actually needed?)

 

[exile]

What grates with me most of all, is the perception that TfL is the magic wand that will fix everything, it will all be sweetness and light and the sky will be full of glittering rainbows.

Well, it's a form of nationalisation, which according to some will solve all problems.

 

[RichJF]

The impact on longer distance services south of the river confuses me a bit.

Given that TfL will take over a lot of the inner Southeastern routes is it possible that the outer suburban/long distance routes are brought under the TSGN larger franchise?
So you have TfL for all inner services & TSGN for all longer distance SE/Southern/TL services?
Or am I just in fantasy land? :roll:

 

[urpert]

I would guess not:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-and-local-input-to-franchising-proposed.html

The impact on longer distance services south of the river confuses me a bit.

Given that TfL will take over a lot of the inner Southeastern routes is it possible that the outer suburban/long distance routes are brought under the TSGN larger franchise?
So you have TfL for all inner services & TSGN for all longer distance SE/Southern/TL services?
Or am I just in fantasy land? :roll:

Given that both those franchises are currently run by the same company (who will certainly be bidding to retain what's left of Southeastern in 2018) I can't see it making much practical difference.

 

[The Ham]

SWT potentially wouldn't have any routes left suitable to use the 707s on if both TfL transfer and CR2 plans went ahead. Guildford via Effingham maybe? It has always seemed likely to me that the 455/456 fleet would be mostly redundant after CR2 anyway.

(BTW I think the T in SWT stands for Trains - so the apostrophe s is not actually needed?)

Woking stoppers? Assuming that they stay as part of the SWT franchise. (4 trains required to run half hourly).

Guildford services are about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes on 4tph (cira 10 trains required to run).

That would be 28 units if all the units run doubled up, meaning that the 30 units of the class 707's could just about cover that.

(sorry, I quite often talk about SWT's fleet or SWT's stations or SWT's 444's, which does need a 's as it belongs to them, and forgot I didn't need it here)

 

[EM2]

Something that has just occurred to me.
The infrastructure improvements that TfL may want to invest in will surely have to be carried out by Network Rail and paid for by TfL. Bearing in mind how much work NR already have on, will it mean a bigger budget for NR to take on more staff and so on? And when are they meant to squeeze in the work for TfL when they're apparently way behind on projects as it is?

 

[ScotGG]

Something that has just occurred to me.
The infrastructure improvements that TfL may want to invest in will surely have to be carried out by Network Rail and paid for by TfL. Bearing in mind how much work NR already have on, will it mean a bigger budget for NR to take on more staff and so on? And when are they meant to squeeze in the work for TfL when they're apparently way behind on projects as it is?

They managed to get GOBLIN wired up when it looked unlikely.

In terms of funding - central govt will hope to wash their hands but can't entirely. But TfL & GLA will be far better at utilising land by stations through housing etc, tax precepts (like Crossrail with 2/3 paid for by London through bonds + taxes on large business) and staffing stations so less free travel meaning higher incomes. NR could expand to meet this challenge or have a London seperate division?

 

[hwl]

Something that has just occurred to me.
The infrastructure improvements that TfL may want to invest in will surely have to be carried out by Network Rail and paid for by TfL. Bearing in mind how much work NR already have on, will it mean a bigger budget for NR to take on more staff and so on? And when are they meant to squeeze in the work for TfL when they're apparently way behind on projects as it is?

NR have generally been ok south of the river.
Resignalling is need over the next decade for most of south London and NR has been planning this already so not as much extra work as it might appear...

 

[Sleepy]

What will happen to ticket offices / through ticketing to National Rail given TFL dislike of both ?

 

[BobSmith833]

Apologies if this has already been discussed above, but does anyone know the effect of this on point to point season tickets within London? Currently I pay £48 per month for my commute, and my worry is that with TfL operating all lines, I'll have to instead get a zone 2-3 travelcard at a much increased cost of £93.

 

[387star]

Many south west trains inner london stations have been painted a rather drab grey ...

Is this a tfl initiative ?

Clapham junction is similar now with some burgendy looking paint as well... So not exactly overground

Unless they were painted this way when the train of thought was all stations would be painted in a standardized non corporate scheme? Weybridge is just one exMple... Not a fan looks like undercoat I think the overground stations are painted differently?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many south west trains inner london stations have been painted a rather drab grey ...

Is this a tfl initiative ?

Clapham junction is similar now with some burgendy looking paint as well... So not exactly overground



Unless they were painted this way when the train of thought was all stations would be painted in a standardized non corporate scheme? Weybridge is just one exMple... Not a fan looks like undercoat I think the overground stations are painted differently?

Also london overground have sundays as part of the working week will they try and push this for their takeovers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many south west trains inner london stations have been painted a rather drab grey ...

Is this a tfl initiative ?

ISTR that when stations need repainting within a certain time of the end of the franchise, they are done in a neutral scheme to avoid unnecessary cost on franchise changeover. It is for this reason that Warrington Bank Quay has mostly grey paint and BR-style unbranded black-on-white signage.

 

[swt_passenger]

Woking stoppers? Assuming that they stay as part of the SWT franchise. (4 trains required to run half hourly).

Guildford services are about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes on 4tph (cira 10 trains required to run).

That would be 28 units if all the units run doubled up, meaning that the 30 units of the class 707's could just about cover that.

But because it is a 3 way internal cascade when the 707s arrive, i.e. they will displace 458/5s off Windsors, Hounslows and Weybridge etc, and they in turn will displace 450s off Readings, then we could even end up with 450s or 458s running Woking stopers and the like; and that's before we consider SWT's recent tender for even more rolling stock.

But anything can still happen - we've still got that Surrey CC proposal to extend CR2 further, and even out to Woking, as we discussed in one of the other threads recently.

But all in all, DfT and the Roscos will probably direct where any particular stock gets used, it may not be SWT or their successor making the decision...

 

[JaJaWa]

Many south west trains inner london stations have been painted a rather drab grey ...

Is this a tfl initiative ?

Clapham junction is similar now with some burgendy looking paint as well... So not exactly overground

Unless they were painted this way when the train of thought was all stations would be painted in a standardized non corporate scheme? Weybridge is just one exMple... Not a fan looks like undercoat I think the overground stations are painted differently?

The South West Trains stations have been painted in the "South Western Railway" style, which was part of the South West Trains - Network Rail alliance attempt to bring Network Rail style to stations managed by TOCs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Many south west trains inner london stations have been painted a rather drab grey ...

Is this a tfl initiative ?

Highly unlikely because (as I've pointed out when you've asked this before) haven't they done it to other stations outside the TfL area? And if anything to do with TfL, why is it limited to the SWT area, and not every other London TOC?

Also london overground have sundays as part of the working week will they try and push this for their takeovers?

Is it actually a London Overground takeover? It doesn't say that in the DfT prospectus...

 

[Morgsie]

There needs to be a lot work done on the details

Slightly off-topic but relevant is London Elections this May and how do these proposals affect the Elections?

 

[The Ham]

Apologies if this has already been discussed above, but does anyone know the effect of this on point to point season tickets within London? Currently I pay £48 per month for my commute, and my worry is that with TfL operating all lines, I'll have to instead get a zone 2-3 travelcard at a much increased cost of £93.

Given that Clapham Junction to Clapham High Street has cheaper season tickets for not using London underground services (i.e. London Overground) compared with a monthly/annual zone 2/3 travel card, I would guess that you needn't worry.

A ticket between two stations is limited to just that, while a zone 2/3 travel card would entitle you to travel half way around London on some Overground Lines. Meaning that it is probably in TfL's interest to offer both as otherwise people may start using other services (including buses) to get their moneys worth.

For someone, like yourself, where the cost is a lot more it would take a lot of additional journeys. However on the above example where it is £20 difference per month it could be easy enough to do enough other journeys to make it beneficial to opt for the zone travel card.

 

[JaJaWa]

Do we have to have a new Mayor!

Mayor Boris Johnson said: “It’s a measure of the trust that we’ve built up that we can expand the success and deliver better services far and wide. Just as the Roman legions carried their eagle and Christian missionaries had the cross, so the TfL roundel will be raised proudly in parts of the suburban rail network that never saw it before."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/tfl-londons-commuter-rail-services-department-for-transport

 

[urbophile]

I was wondering how long it would take for a post like this from somebody not familiar with the issues in London.
Well if major centres outside the capital have similar issues with cynical TOCs just doing what's best for them, then London is the place to emulate. Obviously it would be on a smaller scale, but the principles of integrating travel for the benefit of users rather than the farce of franchising that masquerades under the name of privatisation apply just as much for the North-west, South & West Yorkshire, the North-east and even the Greater Avon area.

Well of course. The difficulty is that the government have been adamant in refusing similar co-ordinated systems for outside London. Certainly for buses, and there seems little enthusiasm - despite the 'northern powerhouse' rhetoric - for tackling the rail system. Public ownership à la BR might not be the way forward, but public control, and co-ordination, certainly is.

 

[deltic]

Given the SWT EOI has already been issued its not clear how any services could be carved out and tendered by TfL and keep to the present timetable to retender the franchise

 

[JaJaWa]

Given the SWT EOI has already been issued its not clear how any services could be carved out and tendered by TfL and keep to the present timetable to retender the franchise

The new franchise was designed with creating a separate London business unit to transfer to TfL 2-3 years into the franchise.

 

[urbophile]

The only way that'll change it is strong local power. Various cities did themselves no favours by not voting for Mayors a few years back. Though I grant you, Westminster hate to see power given away. Only Bristol voted for a Mayor, and central govt have barely offered a thing.

So long, concerted pressure for local power is the key. London had to do it from 1984 until 2000.

'Cities' with elected Mayors is not the equivalent of the Mayor of London, who has authority over the whole of Greater London. The equivalent would have been a Mayor for a city region, which was not on offer (though now it is being talked about.) Here in Liverpool we were given no referendum to vote on the principle of an elected Mayor, so we had one foisted on us (theoretically the city could have voted for anyone except the Labour candidate, but that was never going to be likely.) A city mayor has no authority over transport which is organised on a regional basis.

 

[swt_passenger]

The new franchise was designed with creating a separate London business unit to transfer to TfL 2-3 years into the franchise.

Indeed, from that prospectus:

Transport for London

Rail Executive recognises that opportunities exist for greater local focus and involvement within the South Western franchise. In particular, there is an intention to work more closely in partnership with Transport for London (TfL) to understand how the needs of those passengers travelling on inner London-based services can best be served. Such collaboration might extend to common standards, ticketing, strategic planning, and working together to deliver projects. We may require bidders to establish business units within the franchise that enable a more locally-focussed approach to managing parts of the network, supporting the principle of closer working with TfL.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/479332/dft-south-western-prospectus.pdf

Not exactly a surprise then...

 

[bicbasher]

Apologies if this has already been discussed above, but does anyone know the effect of this on point to point season tickets within London? Currently I pay £48 per month for my commute, and my worry is that with TfL operating all lines, I'll have to instead get a zone 2-3 travelcard at a much increased cost of £93.

TfL have kept point to point season tickets on the West Anglia and Shenfield routes out of Liverpool Street (inc. Romford to Upminster) and also between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, also Denmark Hill to Queens Road Peckham, which are served by Southern, Thameslink & Southeastern.

I suspect ticketing will be similar to how they've managed the West Anglia/Shenfield/Romford-Upminster routes from AGA.

 

[A0]

Well, it's a form of nationalisation, which according to some will solve all problems.

Which is utter balderdash - because existing service levels are set by the DFT.

And the operation of the actual trains on London Overground is still with a private company.

 

[swt_passenger]

TfL have kept point to point season tickets on the West Anglia and Shenfield routes out of Liverpool Street (inc. Romford to Upminster) and also between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, also Denmark Hill to Queens Road Peckham, which are served by Southern, Thameslink & Southeastern.

That wasn't always the idea though, didn't they do away with point to points on the original NLL/WLL/DC routes, and came in for some stick about it at the time?

As they get involved with the much wider areas involved in recent transfers and proposals, that sort of unilateral change (simplification?) won't be so easy to get away with...

 

[bicbasher]

That wasn't always the idea though, didn't they do away with point to points on the original NLL/WLL/DC routes, and came in for some stick about it at the time?

As they get involved with the much wider areas involved in recent transfers and proposals, that sort of unilateral change (simplification?) won't be so easy to get away with...

They removed P2P on those routes, the ELL core and from some stations on the SLL, i.e. Peckham Rye to Clapham Junction, although you can still buy a season from Southeastern managed Nunhead or Southern's South Bermondsey to Clapham Junction which is perfectly valid on LOROL.

 

[ScotGG]

'Cities' with elected Mayors is not the equivalent of the Mayor of London, who has authority over the whole of Greater London. The equivalent would have been a Mayor for a city region, which was not on offer (though now it is being talked about.) Here in Liverpool we were given no referendum to vote on the principle of an elected Mayor, so we had one foisted on us (theoretically the city could have voted for anyone except the Labour candidate, but that was never going to be likely.) A city mayor has no authority over transport which is organised on a regional basis.

It's not the be all and end all but getting a Mayor is an important step on the long process to bring back power to cities. And I agree city mayors do not cover the region needed for real changes.

 

[Antman]

What grates with me most of all, is the perception that TfL is the magic wand that will fix everything, it will all be sweetness and light and the sky will be full of glittering rainbows.

That's just what I thought!

People have this fanciful idea about TfL being the knights in shining armour and no more leaves on the line, wrong type of sunshine etc etc

 

[JaJaWa]

That's just what I thought!

People have this fanciful idea about TfL being the knights in shining armour and no more leaves on the line, wrong type of sunshine etc etc

I highly doubt TfL will be using the sunshine excuse.