TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[ComUtoR]

People have this fanciful idea about TfL being the knights in shining armour and no more leaves on the line, wrong type of sunshine etc etc

With all the money going back into the infrastructure improvements they can shift the bank of monitors 6ft to the left.

 

[387star]

Are all these routes doo other than swt?

 

[Minstral25]

That's just what I thought!

People have this fanciful idea about TfL being the knights in shining armour and no more leaves on the line, wrong type of sunshine etc etc

I don't get why people keep saying the London Overground is a success, I suppose it's on the principle of keep saying it then people will believe.

The West London line is a dismal failure along the principles of Virgin's operation princess - trains are too small to fit all the passengers on and the overcrowding is unacceptable.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Which is utter balderdash - because existing service levels are set by the DFT.

And the operation of the actual trains on London Overground is still with a private company.

And the latter bit also makes the claim that the service is not run for a profit a bit suspect as the private company don't do it for no reason! TFL are effectively no different to the DFT when it comes to it.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I wouldn't quote Owen Jones as a credible source for anything. Frankly the guy doesn't remember what a nationalised rail service looked like, still less a nationalised bus service.

Some of us DO remember and are in no hurry to return to what we had before.

Well A0wen there are these amazing things called books that we young people can read and use to form opinions on thing from the past.

I'm also in Notts at the moment and I can't believe the price of Trent Barton, its insane. The lack of integration of smartcards with the Trams and City buses is stupid too.

Tell me about it £3:40 for a single from Eastwood to Nottingham or £6 for an all day Zigzag ticket. Only time I use the bus now is for a night out in Nottingham.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't get why people keep saying the London Overground is a success, I suppose it's on the principle of keep saying it then people will believe.

The West London line is a dismal failure along the principles of Virgin's operation princess - trains are too small to fit all the passengers on and the overcrowding is unacceptable.

Overcrowding is the result of being a success.

 

[ComUtoR]

Overcrowding is the result of being a success.

Or poor train length management, lack of alternative services, demand out stripping supply, lack of services, 9-5 culture, tourism, etc.

 

[jopsuk]

The West London line is a dismal failure along the principles of Virgin's operation princess - trains are too small to fit all the passengers on and the overcrowding is unacceptable.

Operation Princess tried to run more services using shorter trains, and failed mainly because of the timetable wasn't robust enough to cope with the vast sprawling tentacles of Cross Country and the congestion in Birmingham.
Correct me if I'm I wrong, but on the WLL aren't there more services using longer trains (now 5 car versus 3 car 313s)? Running on the same simple network?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also failed because people will not tolerate standing for a long distance InterCity journey, but it is par for the course on the Tube.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Operation Princess tried to run more services using shorter trains, and failed mainly because of the timetable wasn't robust enough to cope with the vast sprawling tentacles of Cross Country and the congestion in Birmingham.
Correct me if I'm I wrong, but on the WLL aren't there more services using longer trains (now 5 car versus 3 car 313s)? Running on the same simple network?

You're right, the WLL is a victim of it's own success. There are I think 3 or 4 Southern tph at peak times to supplement LO on the WLL too and it's still packed. The platforms have been lengthened so 8 car 377's can do the journey which will help a lot.

Remember that this was a line that had very few passengers or stations until relatively recently.

 

[daikilo]

There was a map of which routes they wanted knocking about last year.

Page 20 of this report: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/devolving_rail_services_to_london-final-report.pdf

For SWT it included all those routes you mention, including Weybridge via Chertsey and Dorking. But NOT routes via Effingham Jn towards Guidford, or towards Woking.

I'm guessing Boris woke up one morning with the answer to his concern over how to convert TfL into TfGL and came up with this idea. It is actually rather logical that if London generates jobs then pulling workers in should be it's responsibility, but not quite what the TOC contracts suggest.

 

[jopsuk]

Things absent from the prospectus: the Lee Valley.

"But Crossrail 2" you say. Well yes. Which is set to run to Broxbourne on 12-16tph, ac cording to the first round consultation. But that consultation also mentioned a service level of a further 4tph at all stations from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne- including Angel Road, so one can assume that this is roughly the future Stratford to Angel Road (STAR) service and that it obviously won't terminate at Angel Road when there's express trains whizzing down the fast lines and a stream of Crossrail 2 trains trying to use the slow lines (future 4-track layout). It's not clear from the CR2 consultation what's to happen with Hertford East or the Stortford local services. It's possible Crossrail and/or STAR could be extended to either of those.

But who is to run STAR? Surely as a "metro" service it makes sense to bring it in to TfL? Is it just that the 4tph STAR on a 4-track Lee Valley is so far ahead that it's a nonsense to talk about it yet?

 

[hwl]

Things absent from the prospectus: the Lee Valley.

"But Crossrail 2" you say. Well yes. Which is set to run to Broxbourne on 12-16tph, ac cording to the first round consultation. But that consultation also mentioned a service level of a further 4tph at all stations from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne- including Angel Road, so one can assume that this is roughly the future Stratford to Angel Road (STAR) service and that it obviously won't terminate at Angel Road when there's express trains whizzing down the fast lines and a stream of Crossrail 2 trains trying to use the slow lines (future 4-track layout). It's not clear from the CR2 consultation what's to happen with Hertford East or the Stortford local services. It's possible Crossrail and/or STAR could be extended to either of those.

But who is to run STAR? Surely as a "metro" service it makes sense to bring it in to TfL? Is it just that the 4tph STAR on a 4-track Lee Valley is so far ahead that it's a nonsense to talk about it yet?

It will all be sorted next time Anglia gets refrachised so no point in worrying about it now (to late for this time).
I belive the plan is STAR replacement will transfer to TfL, everything else stays with Anglia and runs on the fast lines.

 

[30907]

Looking at the table on page 34 re the current service levels - I'm not sure where they get 8tph suburban into the Southeastern side of Victoria? Surely it's 4tph Orpington and 2tph Dartford?

Think it might be peak hour levels? They dont seem to be promising an increase.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will we see major orders of class 710s over the next few years for each line to replace whatever is being used when TFL takes over a line?

 

[jopsuk]

Will we see major orders of class 710s over the next few years for each line to replace whatever is being used when TFL takes over a line?

No, we'll see competitive tenders where appropriate if the stock is due for replacement, with the specification of the stock appropriate to the service group

 

[Goldfish62]

There needs to be a lot work done on the details

Slightly off-topic but relevant is London Elections this May and how do these proposals affect the Elections?

Given that such a proposal has had cross-party support for a number of years I can't see any significant affect. Indeed, both Goldsmith and Khan have stated that they wish to see TfL run the inner-suburban networks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't get why people keep saying the London Overground is a success, I suppose it's on the principle of keep saying it then people will believe.

The West London line is a dismal failure along the principles of Virgin's operation princess - trains are too small to fit all the passengers on and the overcrowding is unacceptable.

Do you actually think it would have new 5 car trains, 4tph, and refurbished, staffed stations if it had been kept under the previous regime?

The train are horribly overcrowded, yes, but I'd be interested to know how that equates to it being a dismal failure. I'd also be interested to know how it can be compared to Operation Princess given that that was based on no overall capacity increase, just shorter trains running more frequently in the main core network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are all these routes doo other than swt?

Yes, and as TfL don't do guards......:roll:

 

[bicbasher]

London Live TV surprisingly had some analysis of this story and not just the TfL/DfT/Mayor puff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiotaYr1fgU
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think it might be peak hour levels? They dont seem to be promising an increase.

Not to peak services for any of the services they're taking over. It's off-peak they're making promises on.

 

[Class 170101]

I thnk you will find for Kent there was an agreement that increases in capacity were to be carried out by lengthening of trains not by running extra services and not at the expense of services on the Kent County Council area.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I notice the London Live report linked above mentions services from Clapham Junction into Kent. Any ideas about this??

 

[bramling]

Given that such a proposal has had cross-party support for a number of years I can't see any significant affect. Indeed, both Goldsmith and Khan have stated that they wish to see TfL run the inner-suburban networks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do you actually think it would have new 5 car trains, 4tph, and refurbished, staffed stations if it had been kept under the previous regime?

The train are horribly overcrowded, yes, but I'd be interested to know how that equates to it being a dismal failure. I'd also be interested to know how it can be compared to Operation Princess given that that was based on no overall capacity increase, just shorter trains running more frequently in the main core network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, and as TfL don't do guards......:roll:

Must admit to being in two minds about more TFL involvement.

New trains are irrelevant, as these could be provided by any franchisee. The 378s will turn old over time, so a more relevant issue is presentation and maintenance. So far to be fair the 378s are turned out ok, and there has been an improvement seen on the West Anglia trains. Also they have evidently made some effort to get hold of as many trains as possible, for example with the 317/7s and also hiring the ex London Midland 321s.

However for some reason I just can't make myself like London Overground. It's inefficient breaking up the railway just because of boundaries on a map. The provision of extra capacity on the NLL has been slow, and I don't find many of the staff particularly useful, the impression is they're 'security'-type staff, rather than well-trained and knowledgable railwaymen.

Personally I find SWT's suburban network to be well run, and Southern is not too bad. I've never really found too much fault with Southeastern either to be fair. The sort of improvements could be brought about with a more tightly-specified franchise system, without the railway getting embroiled with all the politics of TFL and the Mayor of London.

And TFL havn't really covered themselves with shining glory on some of their own recent projects closer to home.

 

[LLivery]

SWT Guards must not be happy right now. Saying that I can't see guards being sacked on the South West routes without some fight. Especially when they've got "conductors" on those stupid Boris Buses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Keep seeing the 67% of stations with 4tph, will be 80% under TfL. Anyone got an idea what stations these might be?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

4tph or more:

Raynes Park, New Malden, Surbiton, Norbiton and all stations on the Kingston loop.
Motspur Park and all stations to Epsom.
Selected stations on the Windsor lines.

 

[Antman]

SWT Guards must not be happy right now. Saying that I can't see guards being sacked on the South West routes without some fight. Especially when they've got "conductors" on those stupid Boris Buses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Keep seeing the 67% of stations with 4tph, will be 80% under TfL. Anyone got an idea what stations these might be?

I don't what relevance 'Boris buses' have or what is stupid about them but they don't all have conductors anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Must admit to being in two minds about more TFL involvement.

New trains are irrelevant, as these could be provided by any franchisee. The 378s will turn old over time, so a more relevant issue is presentation and maintenance. So far to be fair the 378s are turned out ok, and there has been an improvement seen on the West Anglia trains. Also they have evidently made some effort to get hold of as many trains as possible, for example with the 317/7s and also hiring the ex London Midland 321s.

However for some reason I just can't make myself like London Overground. It's inefficient breaking up the railway just because of boundaries on a map. The provision of extra capacity on the NLL has been slow, and I don't find many of the staff particularly useful, the impression is they're 'security'-type staff, rather than well-trained and knowledgable railwaymen.

Personally I find SWT's suburban network to be well run, and Southern is not too bad. I've never really found too much fault with Southeastern either to be fair. The sort of improvements could be brought about with a more tightly-specified franchise system, without the railway getting embroiled with all the politics of TFL and the Mayor of London.

And TFL havn't really covered themselves with shining glory on some of their own recent projects closer to home.

That pretty much sums up my feelings, I can't really put my finger on why but I am certainly not overjoyed at the prospect of TfL taking over.

 

[ScotGG]

I thnk you will find for Kent there was an agreement that increases in capacity were to be carried out by lengthening of trains not by running extra services and not at the expense of services on the Kent County Council area.

There was never any real danger of long distance Kent routes being cut and any increases were always going to be brought about by longer trains.

Cannon St + Charing Cross are at capacity and wont see an increase in peak time services after 2018, so the only option remaining is to lengthen trains - both metro and longer distance (though some of these are 12 carriages already)

 

[Bletchleyite]

That pretty much sums up my feelings, I can't really put my finger on why but I am certainly not overjoyed at the prospect of TfL taking over.

Nor I in MK, because I don't want to lose the "via Kenny O" direct trains, nor have the "route Kenny O" fares removed as they are nicely cheaper than via London.

 

[ScotGG]

Must admit to being in two minds about more TFL involvement.

New trains are irrelevant, as these could be provided by any franchisee. The 378s will turn old over time, so a more relevant issue is presentation and maintenance. So far to be fair the 378s are turned out ok, and there has been an improvement seen on the West Anglia trains. Also they have evidently made some effort to get hold of as many trains as possible, for example with the 317/7s and also hiring the ex London Midland 321s.

However for some reason I just can't make myself like London Overground. It's inefficient breaking up the railway just because of boundaries on a map. The provision of extra capacity on the NLL has been slow, and I don't find many of the staff particularly useful, the impression is they're 'security'-type staff, rather than well-trained and knowledgable railwaymen.

Personally I find SWT's suburban network to be well run, and Southern is not too bad. I've never really found too much fault with Southeastern either to be fair. The sort of improvements could be brought about with a more tightly-specified franchise system, without the railway getting embroiled with all the politics of TFL and the Mayor of London.

And TFL havn't really covered themselves with shining glory on some of their own recent projects closer to home.

It's true that improvements could come about under a tightly specified franchise system under DfT control. Only problem is, the DfT couldn't really be bothered to do that for Southeastern for a fair amount of time now - particularly metro routes. Some tinkering but generally what they specified resulted in a lack of staff, no real updates for 25 year old and clapped out networkers and no added stock for 10 years despite large growth.

So bring on TfL, who are far more likely to specify badly needed improvements.

 

[Minstral25]

Do you actually think it would have new 5 car trains, 4tph, and refurbished, staffed stations if it had been kept under the previous regime?

The train are horribly overcrowded, yes, but I'd be interested to know how that equates to it being a dismal failure. I'd also be interested to know how it can be compared to Operation Princess given that that was based on no overall capacity increase, just shorter trains running more frequently in the main core network.

It was a bit of an off-beat comparison but I have got very bored with everyone saying what a success LO is, when plainly it is not on many levels.

Yes in terms of usage it is much better than previous incumbents and that is a great success creating a service that people never knew beforehand they needed and now it is. However the increase in demand that happens when you provide a more regular service was badly under estimated leading to the current 5 car trains being inadequate.

One of the issues with "Princess" was providing more regular short trains led to increase in usage which in turn led to overcrowding.

I know the 4 then 5 coach units were fixed because of the ELL limits in the tunnel stations but on the NLL and WLL where trains are regularly overcrowded at 15 or 20 minute intervals (rather than 5 on ELL) either needs more trains or longer trains urgently.

Until you have stood on West Brompton and watched three trains go by (including an 8 coach Southern unit) that you have been unable to board due to crowding, that you see how inadequate the service has become very quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until you have stood on West Brompton and watched three trains go by (including an 8 coach Southern unit) that you have been unable to board due to crowding, that you see how inadequate the service has become very quickly.

Has it reached the point that an InterCity/inter-regional service via Kensington Olympia is required - but one intended entirely for taking WCML passengers to Clapham Jn and beyond, and perhaps not calling at any of the WLL stations at all, or perhaps only at some of them?

Withdrawing the Wembley Central stop might actually reduce the issue substantially, FWIW.

 

[JamesRowden]

There was never any real danger of long distance Kent routes being cut and any increases were always going to be brought about by longer trains.

Cannon St + Charing Cross are at capacity and wont see an increase in peak time services after 2018, so the only option remaining is to lengthen trains - both metro and longer distance (though some of these are 12 carriages already)

And/or to transfer the Hayes branch to the Bakerloo Line. I've also thought that the Bakerloo Line could also take over another SE London inner suburban branch from Lewisham.