How genuine mistakes can become much more serious

[Bletchleyite]

Who bears the cost of administering this system? It's a nice idea but I think unfortunately is probably unworkable.

SBB do it, as it is done for car parking offences.

 

[paddington]

I was looking at the Belgian Railways website this afternoon and noticed that they have something called the 'on-board fare'.

http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/on-board-fare.aspx

I was also in Sweden over the weekend, and discovered that you can buy tickets for the Arlanda Express before boarding, or buy tickets on board which will cost 100 SEK more.

Paying this extra fare component has the same effect as paying a UK penalty fare, but the use of the word 'penalty' is avoided, and people charged this extra amount would be less likely to get the feeling they were being 'fined'.

In the case of the OP (of the linked thread), if policy was for the RPI to say - unfortunately you can't use Oyster to travel here, so you need a ticket. But the price for buying the ticket now is £10 more than if you had bought it at Kings Cross - then I think the OP's son might have just paid up. As opposed to - you don't have a ticket so you have to pay a penalty fare. Everyone hears or sees the word penalty which makes them aggrieved at what is an honest mistake.

I wonder whether it would be possible to implement this system within the framework of UK railways and railway law. If Northern were able to charge £10 extra for buying on board or at destination (where facilities at the origin don't exist) would this encourage more people to buy tickets before boarding, or would people just continue to chance getting away with not paying?

It has been mentioned that most chancers don't really think they will get prosecuted, so having or not having a threat of prosecution doesn't factor into their decision making.

Or perhaps Northern is making more money with the status quo of charging £80 settlements and whatever courts award them for successful prosecutions, as they don't care whether anyone gets a criminal record.

it is done for car parking offences.

If you mean in the UK rather than Switzerland, then unlike not having a rail ticket, you won't get a criminal record for parking improperly. Councils can give you civil penalties, which if you know how to appeal, you have about 50% chance of getting cancelled. Private firms can sue you in small claims, which relies on the law of contract as well as the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 - but many firms don't bother to sue as going to court causes them to lose money and they prefer to just collect money from those who pay; very few firms actually comply with that Act so you can win at appeal in many cases.

 

[Bellbell]

SBB do it, as it is done for car parking offences.

SBB as in the Swiss railway? Sorry, that's a genuine question.

If it is the Swiss railway that doesn't really answer my question about who's going to bear the cost of administering it.

Edit: actually, even if it's a private UK company it still doesn't answer my question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB as in the Swiss railway? Sorry, that's a genuine question.

Yes, sorry. The fine, Penalty Fare or whatever you call it is slightly cheaper if paid on the spot than it is paid later, you can choose to do either.

If it is the Swiss railway that doesn't really answer my question about who's going to bear the cost of administering it.

If a small charge is made for paying later, the person who chooses to pay later is going to bear the cost of administering it.

 

[Clip]

sigh here we go again…

I simply propose that the passenger should not be penalised for making mistakes such as the one in the above linked thread. They should be offered the appropriate fare from the boundary to their destination, without being charged extra. This is not impossible, this is what Guards on SWT do all the time.

This is not pandering to the customer's every whim, this is selling them the correct ticket for the journey they made.

The Railway should not be penalising and making a buck off people who have clearly been confounded by the fares system, because it is the Railway's fault the fares system is so complex and poorly-advertised in the first place.

That is all I shall say on the matter, since some members of RailUK Forums would clearly prefer the Railway to continue to alienate and criminalise potential repeat customers rather than accept that most people have honest intentions.

Its only 'Here we go again' because people like you keep bringing these topics down to what has been said many many times before without realising that it isnt going to change.

And no matter how many times people tell you and others that being asleep and not knowing that somewhere wasnt in the zones are some of the most popular excuses heard by fare evaders you just wont accept that it happens.

Most people with honest intentions actually purchase the ticket they want before they commence their journey and find out if a ticket - being a season - is indeed valid to where they want to go to. Thats the passengers personal responsibility - NOT the railways.And if they dont and get caught then a simple PF stops them from being prosecuted.

Lets face it ticketless passengers have been prosecuted since the age of the railways and the railways have won.
Penalty fares have been in existence for about 30 years and brought in so people wouldnt get prosecuted for a first time offence.
Oyster has been with us for over 10 years now and whilst the services its available on has changed the main 1-6 boundary area hasnt apart from a few minor zonal changes.

Now, if you want to see PFs be done with then the only way that will be allowed is to prosecute everyone. And Im not sure that us the scenario any of us want - no matter how many times this topic gets dragged down to the pettiness you and others always drag it down to.

Yes im cynical but its a black and white issue( bar the usual caveats which some would reply with dragging it to another round the houses discussion).

P.S we are not in Germany or any other country and we dont follow their rules and never will so stop bringing that up too for crying out loud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

P.S we are not in Germany or any other country and we dont follow their rules and never will so stop bringing that up too for crying out loud.

"Not invented here syndrome", the classic barrier to bringing in good ideas from other countries to the UK.

 

[Clip]

"Not invented here syndrome", the classic barrier to bringing in good ideas from other countries to the UK.

*sigh* I know you love Germany, Neil, given your frequency to elbow a reference to them in in every conversation but these threads have been done before, bring nothing to help the OP and nothing that your beloved German train set does will ever help them nor make anything any different over here and to think so is very naive.

 

[bb21]

I fully agree but here on RailUK Forums you have those who like to muddy the waters with scenarios that are hardly ever relevant to the OP and as such threads drag on with no real purpose nor agreement and that the passenger must always be believed and must be right - in a lot of these cases we should do so on the bounds of great customer service.

However, in reality and as you say, people need to start taking responsibility for themselves but they dont and we now seem to have a culture where we pander to their every whim and cosset them in a big woolly blanket, the poor wee mites.

1. What "great customer service"? As i explained on the forum in public several times before, the OP's words are all we have to go on. What is the point of posting lies? A bit of sympathy? So what if they get some? If they post lies then they get incorrect advice, dropping themselves further in deep brown as a result most likely. It is not in anyone's interest to post lies. If they are so stupid as to lie then they deserve all that comes to them as a result.
2. As for people blaming the railway incorrectly stemming from that, who cares? Some people will always moan regardless while others will find the smallest fault and want you hung, drawn and quartered. I couldn't give a toss what some people on here think about my job and my TOC. I do my job well and I believe most railway staff on here do so too, which is all that matters. If the criticism were incorrect and based on lies then no TOC will take it seriously.
3. It is pointless speculating even if you don't believe the account given by the person coming here to seek help. Where does it end otherwise? Every fact given by the OP can be a lie. If anyone does not want to help, then don't, and stay out of it. No one is forced to take part in the Disputes area.
4. As for advising people to take responsibility, it's fine as part of a package of advice, but not going to get the person seeking help out of the poo they find themselves in by itself.
5. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

 

[najaB]

1. What "great customer service"? As i explained on the forum in public several times before, the OP's words are all we have to go on. What is the point of posting lies?

I don't think Clip was speaking about forum posts not being truthful as much as he meant that some posters seem to think that the 'customer is always right' applies in extremis. And so we have suggestions that passengers should always be allowed the 'benefit of the doubt' even when there is none, because the ticketing system is too complex for anyone other than Stephen Hawkin (or Fry) to understand.

 

[bb21]

... and for practical reasons, those suggestions will be roundly ignored by the DfT, TOCs, other policy-makers, so who cares if 600 people on this forum think it should be the case? Hardly worth getting annoyed by.

 

[6Gman]

so it's not unreasonable to guess

But not wise or sensible.

 

[sheff1]

P.S we are not in Germany or any other country and we dont follow their rules and never will so stop bringing that up too for crying out loud.

In the real world, of course, "we" are already bound by many rules which have their roots in other countries.

Why suggestions (and that is all they are) of possible different ways of doing things are immediately discounted by certain posters for no stated reason other than they are "foreign" is just beyond me. It may surprise those posters that some "foreign" ideas have actually been introduced to the GB rail system ... and work

 

[NarrowG]

Like many passengers I think the system is unfair to occasional, genuine mistakes. There are good suggestions in this thread and it is defeatist to say it will "never change". The action formulating one or more proposals, writing to our MPs and publicising in the media will raise the profile and (like any pressure group) may eventually lead to action.

If the S&C can be kept open and the Borders Railway rebuilt - we have a small chance too.

I leave with a question: Do you know of any stats on the percentage of penalty fares/prosecutions found to be given to actual fare evaders, vs people who made a mistake? I wonder if it will turn out to be like benefit fraud - substantially lower than people thought.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I will say, I am a train driver, and on the way home on the train in the afternoon after an OH OH HOURS RIDICULOUS start time, I have several times woken up when the train terminates 2 stops past where I wanted to get off

 

[LateThanNever]

I was looking at the Belgian Railways website this afternoon and noticed that they have something called the 'on-board fare'.

http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/on-board-fare.aspx

What a good scheme.
It needs only to be linked with an easy way to buy tickets before travel and problem solved.
This last bit is the one that the RailCos need to address. If the on-board fare were unenforceable without an easy way to buy tickets before travel then the law would rarely need to be used.
The onus should be on Railway Corporations to provide the correct facilities then they get the power. At the moment they have been given the power without providing the facilities.
A clear breach of man on the Clapham Omnibus reasonableness.
Even if he is on a train.

 

[CheesyChips]

*sigh* I know you love Germany, Neil, given your frequency to elbow a reference to them in in every conversation but these threads have been done before, bring nothing to help the OP and nothing that your beloved German train set does will ever help them nor make anything any different over here and to think so is very naive.

Well...this is a forum to discuss ideas and Germany does seem to be at one with efficiency.

What do you recommend, no further discussion? I could have sworn this was a forum

 

[exile]

I

Most people with honest intentions actually purchase the ticket they want before they commence their journey

They don't if their station is unstaffed. Are you aware the majority of stations are unstaffed either at all or in the afternoon/evening?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well...this is a forum to discuss ideas and Germany does seem to be at one with efficiency.

What do you recommend, no further discussion? I could have sworn this was a forum

It is, but apparently the British railway ticketing system is, like the old pre-reform House of Commons, incapable of being improved as it's already perfect, especially by copying Johnny Foreigner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well...this is a forum to discuss ideas and Germany does seem to be at one with efficiency.

What do you recommend, no further discussion? I could have sworn this was a forum

It is, but apparently the British railway ticketing system is, like the old pre-reform House of Commons, incapable of being improved as it's already perfect, especially not by copying Johnny Foreigner.

 

[Agent_c]

An excellent suggestion, Sir, with just two minor flaws. One, there is no requirement to carry ID.

If the TOC can't verify who you are, you don't get the benefit of the warning system. It is a privlidge offered to those who can effectively verify that this is really their first time, and not a right.

Two, just how does this sit with data protection laws?

Exactly the same way it does now. The TOCs already have the right to collect this information, and already do retain it to find repeat offenders.

 

[najaB]

If the TOC can't verify who you are, you don't get the benefit of the warning system. It is a privlidge offered to those who can effectively verify that this is really their first time, and not a right.

Effectively discriminating against people who don't carry ID - as they are allowed to. It's not a technical obstacle but will sink the idea in the 'court of public opinion'.

Exactly the same way it does now. The TOCs already have the right to collect this information, and already do retain it to find repeat offenders.

The suggestion was for TOCs to store ID rather than name and address. That is more information than they currently do.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Heathrow Express charge an on-board fare that's significantly higher than the station fare. They don't charge penalty fares, they give you a discount if you buy before boarding.

What was that about it being impossible here?

 

[exile]

Heathrow Express charge an on-board fare that's significantly higher than the station fare. They don't charge penalty fares, they give you a discount if you buy before boarding.

What was that about it being impossible here?

It is impossible unless every station is staffed or has a working ticket machine, which is far from being the case.

 

[miami]

It is impossible unless every station is staffed or has a working ticket machine, which is far from being the case.

Not really

Imagine this situation:
You can either
1) Buy a ticket before, assuming there are facilities to purchase the ticket you want via the means you want
2) Buy a ticket on board, with no argument, at a higher fare
3) If there are no facilities to purchase the ticket you want via the means you want you get the full range of tickets on-journey

The only way to abuse it would be to lie about your starting station (which would be fare evasion and can happen now anyway). If you make a genuine mistake, or indeed you are simply running late, you can get on board and buy a non-discounted ticket.

Isn't this the method that used to be used (with the "higher fare" being Anytime tickets with no discounts)

The problem is that many people will decide to "buy on board if challenged", and guards can't always check or sell tickets, and most stations don't have ticket checks. This leads to people not paying at all. Heathrow express do usually check all tickets (on their 8 car train in the 15 minutes they have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Effectively discriminating against people who don't carry ID - as they are allowed to.

Why not simply accept their word, which is all they do now when issuing a byelaw powered notice.

If they are lying, they will be found out as they are now, and that would be fare evasion.

 

[Haywain]

Heathrow express do usually check all tickets (on their 8 car train in the 15 minutes they have.

However, what works in their favour is that they either sell the one ticket available or not. No delaying issues of long convoluted journeys and a vast range of tickets to choose from.

 

[island]

An excellent suggestion, Sir, with just two minor flaws. One, there is no requirement to carry ID. Two, just how does this sit with data protection laws?

Now I realise that is actually two flaws, but they are so glaring that it deserves ruining a Red Dwarf reference.

No, there's just one, which is the ID. Data protection laws are not a bar as there is wide latitude to process data for the purpose of preventing and detecting crime. (It is a common misconception that the Data Protection Act gives individuals an absolute right to prevent having their personal data processed if they do not consent.)

This thread wouldn't exist as an issue if people simply bought a ticket at the appropriate time (usually before travel), like 98+% of railway passengers manage to do every single day, nor if people who chose not to buy a ticket man up and accept the consequences including the payment of the appropriate amount due when it is demanded.

 

[najaB]

It is a common misconception that the Data Protection Act gives individuals an absolute right to prevent having their personal data processed if they do not consent.

I was more thinking about the rules around sharing between organisations. Though I suppose if ATOC was the data controller then there wouldn't be sharing per-se.

 

[cuccir]

I leave with a question: Do you know of any stats on the percentage of penalty fares/prosecutions found to be given to actual fare evaders, vs people who made a mistake?

A pertinent question. The answer, of course, is that no-one knows, particularly because people who haven't paid don't always easily fall into one of those categories (eg a person presuming that they can use Oyster to Stansted Airport will have both evaded a fare and made a mistake).

There's no answer to this debate. People defending a more punitive system have to accept that they're defending a system that will cause real and disproportionate damage to those who make errors - and that some of those people will, variously, have done so because of anxiety disorders, different practices in different parts of the country, changed plans, misplacing objects etc. People defending a more lax system have to accept that their scheme will either be disproportionately expensive or it will let fare evaders through, and will let through the lazy or the chancers.

We can't, with current technology, have both, and Oyster shows that smart-ticketing just creates its own problems. The real life system muddles between these poles, sometimes being a bit lax and sometimes being a bit harsh. I think we can call for better consistency geographically and between TOCs, but all 'solutions' to the mistakes v deliberate issue are misguided IMO.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Well...this is a forum to discuss ideas and Germany does seem to be at one with efficiency.

I too am bored of his never ending references to German railways; and yes many are naive and pointless. Whilst I don’t disagree that we can probably learn from some things Johnny Foreigner does, due to cultural, geographic, political and in some cases economic factors it is very unlikely you can simply lift an idea or practice from abroad and just transplant it here. The fact is we don’t live in Germany and aren’t German.

 

[Clip]

They don't if their station is unstaffed. Are you aware the majority of stations are unstaffed either at all or in the afternoon/evening?
.

Yes, I am aware but unfortunately I am also bored of having to write 'The usual caveats apply' to all my posts because I thought people were intelligent to understand this from my previous post in this very thread or understand that I do know about it and thus there is no need to be pedantic and pull up a post about it.

In fact just to please you I shall now use it as my signature to make you feel at ease with the knowledge that I do know places are unstaffed and some don't even have ticket vending machines(I spelled that bit just in case you didn't understand abbreviations)

 

[exile]

Yes, I am aware but unfortunately I am also bored of having to write 'The usual caveats apply' to all my posts because I thought people were intelligent to understand this from my previous post in this very thread or understand that I do know about it and thus there is no need to be pedantic and pull up a post about it.

In fact just to please you I shall now use it as my signature to make you feel at ease with the knowledge that I do know places are unstaffed and some don't even have ticket vending machines(I spelled that bit just in case you didn't understand abbreviations)

"The usual caveats" make a nonsense of your original statement that honest passengers buy tickets before travelling.

 

[Agent_c]

"The usual caveats" make a nonsense of your original statement that honest passengers buy tickets before travelling.

Not at all. Honest passengers in general buy tickets before travelling (where such facilities exist).