London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[grid56126]

It is worth noting that on "Southern" there were two stretches that were closed. Tonbridge to Redhill and Keymer to Lewes. All other routes were absolutely fine. The 377s coped quite well everywhere else. The first train over Keymer from Lewes was some 130" late and that was achieved with hand de- icing of the live rail taking place by staff walking in front of the unit. The ice was just that, ice, not frost, sheet ice.

Both routes suffered a lack of overnight trains with shoegear which may well have helped. Additional E.C.S. were operated elsewhere (West Coast / Arun) as well as some de-icers. Keymer to Lewes was part of a planned possession so the first train over was the first train for some hours.

I gather that the SET issues were on similarly untreated routes, but I have no details. It is actually quite likely that had the temperature been much lower the problem would not have existed as there would be less moisture and less chance of a sheet of ice building up, just a nice crisp frost that Ice Mode on 377s copes with quite well.

As for older stock coping better, that's a fair comment, but, and it's a big but, the days after would see huge amounts of stock laid up with burnt out grids waiting to be fixed. Yes they got through the ice, snow and frost, but the lack of protection of electrical equipment meant it just kept heating up and eventually it went pop. The 442s will cope very well and have been used in the past on snowy days to route prove and keep lines open but this comes at a cost days later. At least with 377s the ice mode protects the electronics and in the days after you have no difference in availability.

And just to add to the micro-climate debate, I think I have probably posted before, but travelling from Croydon in my car I witness quite amazing temperature differences as I come South through Purley and Hooley and onto the M23. I have on a number of occasions left home 5 /6C, got to Hooley and the yellow warning comes on and at Redhill the red light comes on as I hit zero. Thursday was one of these days, although it never hit zero every car in the car park had a lovely sheet of ice and yet the roads and paths looked like there had been a normal dewy night.

Hope this helps a bit . . .

 

[Deepgreen]

It is worth noting that on "Southern" there were two stretches that were closed. Tonbridge to Redhill and Keymer to Lewes. All other routes were absolutely fine. The 377s coped quite well everywhere else. The first train over Keymer from Lewes was some 130" late and that was achieved with hand de- icing of the live rail taking place by staff walking in front of the unit. The ice was just that, ice, not frost, sheet ice.

Both routes suffered a lack of overnight trains with shoegear which may well have helped. Additional E.C.S. were operated elsewhere (West Coast / Arun) as well as some de-icers. Keymer to Lewes was part of a planned possession so the first train over was the first train for some hours.

I gather that the SET issues were on similarly untreated routes, but I have no details. It is actually quite likely that had the temperature been much lower the problem would not have existed as there would be less moisture and less chance of a sheet of ice building up, just a nice crisp frost that Ice Mode on 377s copes with quite well.

As for older stock coping better, that's a fair comment, but, and it's a big but, the days after would see huge amounts of stock laid up with burnt out grids waiting to be fixed. Yes they got through the ice, snow and frost, but the lack of protection of electrical equipment meant it just kept heating up and eventually it went pop. The 442s will cope very well and have been used in the past on snowy days to route prove and keep lines open but this comes at a cost days later. At least with 377s the ice mode protects the electronics and in the days after you have no difference in availability.

And just to add to the micro-climate debate, I think I have probably posted before, but travelling from Croydon in my car I witness quite amazing temperature differences as I come South through Purley and Hooley and onto the M23. I have on a number of occasions left home 5 /6C, got to Hooley and the yellow warning comes on and at Redhill the red light comes on as I hit zero. Thursday was one of these days, although it never hit zero every car in the car park had a lovely sheet of ice and yet the roads and paths looked like there had been a normal dewy night.

Hope this helps a bit . . .

The night (small hours) in question saw local outbreaks of drizzle/light rain falling onto conductor rails that were below freezing - hence the areas of ice rather than frost.

The local variations from London/Croydon to Redhill/Reigate are partly owing to the soil types - London clay doesn't radiate heat away well on clear nights (plus the urban heat island effect), whereas the sandier soil further south is a better radiator. Add in the effects of dips (frost hollows) and you have significant local variations.

 

[carriageline]

It is worth noting that on "Southern" there were two stretches that were closed. Tonbridge to Redhill and Keymer to Lewes. All other routes were absolutely fine. The 377s coped quite well everywhere else. The first train over Keymer from Lewes was some 130" late and that was achieved with hand de- icing of the live rail taking place by staff walking in front of the unit. The ice was just that, ice, not frost, sheet ice.



Both routes suffered a lack of overnight trains with shoegear which may well have helped. Additional E.C.S. were operated elsewhere (West Coast / Arun) as well as some de-icers. Keymer to Lewes was part of a planned possession so the first train over was the first train for some hours.



I gather that the SET issues were on similarly untreated routes, but I have no details. It is actually quite likely that had the temperature been much lower the problem would not have existed as there would be less moisture and less chance of a sheet of ice building up, just a nice crisp frost that Ice Mode on 377s copes with quite well.



As for older stock coping better, that's a fair comment, but, and it's a big but, the days after would see huge amounts of stock laid up with burnt out grids waiting to be fixed. Yes they got through the ice, snow and frost, but the lack of protection of electrical equipment meant it just kept heating up and eventually it went pop. The 442s will cope very well and have been used in the past on snowy days to route prove and keep lines open but this comes at a cost days later. At least with 377s the ice mode protects the electronics and in the days after you have no difference in availability.



And just to add to the micro-climate debate, I think I have probably posted before, but travelling from Croydon in my car I witness quite amazing temperature differences as I come South through Purley and Hooley and onto the M23. I have on a number of occasions left home 5 /6C, got to Hooley and the yellow warning comes on and at Redhill the red light comes on as I hit zero. Thursday was one of these days, although it never hit zero every car in the car park had a lovely sheet of ice and yet the roads and paths looked like there had been a normal dewy night.



Hope this helps a bit . . .

Quite a good post, but Keymer to Lewes wasn't under a possession.

 

[tsr]

Quite a good post, but Keymer to Lewes wasn't under a possession.

Also that Redhill-Reigate had problems, as did Gatwick Airport-Stoats Nest Jn overnight. The former was not caused by possessions, and the latter was originally passed off as due to the positions of line blocks but then also blamed on other issues as well.

 

[Minstral25]

Also that Redhill-Reigate had problems, as did Gatwick Airport-Stoats Nest Jn overnight. The former was not caused by possessions, and the latter was originally passed off as due to the positions of line blocks but then also blamed on other issues as well.

Or more simply the more likely reason is "we can't be bothered to run de-icers to Tonbridge and Reigate as they are not really part of our network" #Cynic

 

[tsr]

Or more simply the more likely reason is "we can't be bothered to run de-icers to Tonbridge and Reigate as they are not really part of our network" #Cynic

Ah... no. Many of the de-icers come from Tonbridge, and some MPVs also work onto the Southern network from Effingham via Reigate, so that's pretty far fetched.

I have recently found that whatever preventative stuff NR does to the Redhill-Tonbridge, it will still have at least a few "off days" every single year due to severe weather/leaf fall/something falling on it. It's pretty much certain. Certainly no conspiracy given the amount of treatment trains and freight trains which go that way compared to much of the rest of the network!

 

[berneyarms]

A commuter tried to sue Southern for delays - but failed....

http://metro.co.uk/2016/02/17/commu...-southern-rail-for-continuous-delays-5699516/

Commuter loses case against Southern Rail for ‘continuous delays’

A man has lost his compensation against Southern Rail after he took them to court over delays and overcrowding.

Finance worker, Sergei Cristo, claimed the rail firm breached The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 after he experienced ‘continuous delays’ on his commute from Earlswood, to Surrey, to London Bridge.

 

[infobleep]

More issues today due to Overrunning engineering works according to National Rail Enquiries and it's going to last all day.

However the biggest issue, which doesn't seem to have warranted a disruption page is a passenger having been taken ill at Hassocks. I hope the passenger is not to ill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well it appears Southern are no longer running any trains from Brighton to Victoria. Wonder if that will still be the case this evening.

It doesn't state this on their Web you course. Must like when London Midland stop running trains to and from Tring, they never openly say this. You just find in the live departure boards that they are cancelled.

This means I don't get any good train connections to Guildford from Brighton. If I miss the Gatwick to Reading train, there is no other Southern train that connects with the Redhill to Reading train. It's annoying.

I may find travelling to Hove helps.

 

[Deepgreen]

More issues today due to Overrunning engineering works according to National Rail Enquiries and it's going to last all day.

However the biggest issue, which doesn't seem to have warranted a disruption page is a passenger having been taken ill at Hassocks. I hope the passenger is not to ill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well it appears Southern are no longer running any trains from Brighton to Victoria. Wonder if that will still be the case this evening.

It doesn't state this on their Web you course. Must like when London Midland stop running trains to and from Tring, they never openly say this. You just find in the live departure boards that they are cancelled.

This means I don't get any good train connections to Guildford from Brighton. If I miss the Gatwick to Reading train, there is no other Southern train that connects with the Redhill to Reading train. It's annoying.

I may find travelling to Hove helps.

Platform 6 at East Croydon was out of use all day. I was surprised to find that my homeward train tonight was OK (the 1649 Victoria to Three Bridges and Reigate) despite the stock coming from Brighton beforehand. An MK train was reversing in platform 2 at East Croydon (our usual platform) so we used 3 with no delay. By the way, I'm rather aware that this thread had drifted away from its original theme somewhat.

 

[infobleep]

Platform 6 at East Croydon was out of use all day. I was surprised to find that my homeward train tonight was OK (the 1649 Victoria to Three Bridges and Reigate) despite the stock coming from Brighton beforehand. An MK train was reversing in platform 2 at East Croydon (our usual platform) so we used 3 with no delay. By the way, I'm rather aware that this thread had drifted away from its original theme somewhat.

I thought that when I was replying but I felt my reply fitted in here. To be fair, Victoria and London Bridge seem to be intrinsically linked aroud East Croydon. One seems to delay the other, although surprisingly not always as you have just shown.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interestingly the 14.28 and 15.18 services were the last to be cancelled from Brighton, so what made it possible to them run more services once more?

 

[Deepgreen]

I thought that when I was replying but I felt my reply fitted in here. To be fair, Victoria and London Bridge seem to be intrinsically linked aroud East Croydon. One seems to delay the other, although surprisingly not always as you have just shown.

Not aimed at you, I was just aware that it's drifted a bit from the original topic of the London Bridge re-modelling's effects on the service.

 

[infobleep]

I see the following two were also cancelled. Some interesting times on the National Rail Enquiries App.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not aimed at you, I was just aware that it's drifted a bit from the original topic of the London Bridge re-modelling's effects on the service.

It's OK I understand. I just thought precisely the same thing as you earlier today.

 

[Deepgreen]

I see the following two were also cancelled. Some interesting times on the National Rail Enquiries App.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's OK I understand. I just thought precisely the same thing as you earlier today.

While I was at Victoria a few days ago there were PA announcements about an 09xx departure being delayed...at 1545!

 

[southern442]

That's just insane.

The so-called 'emergency' engineering works at East Croydon resulting in the closure of platform 6 and cancellation of countless Victoria stoppers, not to mention awful congestion, didn't look like an emergency to me as when I was at the station there weren't even any bloody workers on site! How can they make excuses for this, calling it an 'emergency' operation, when it doesn't even seem to be a priority!

Also my 12-coach train home turned up with 8 coaches, no explanation given, not even an apology

 

[infobleep]

That's just insane.

The so-called 'emergency' engineering works at East Croydon resulting in the closure of platform 6 and cancellation of countless Victoria stoppers, not to mention awful congestion, didn't look like an emergency to me as when I was at the station there weren't even any bloody workers on site! How can they make excuses for this, calling it an 'emergency' operation, when it doesn't even seem to be a priority!

Also my 12-coach train home turned up with 8 coaches, no explanation given, not even an apology

I guess the alternative was to shut the railway line completely through East Croydon.

If it were South West Trains, they would explain why the line is closed all day and the works being taken at night but this is Southern so I suspect they didn't.

 

[Deepgreen]

That's just insane.

The so-called 'emergency' engineering works at East Croydon resulting in the closure of platform 6 and cancellation of countless Victoria stoppers, not to mention awful congestion, didn't look like an emergency to me as when I was at the station there weren't even any bloody workers on site! How can they make excuses for this, calling it an 'emergency' operation, when it doesn't even seem to be a priority!

Also my 12-coach train home turned up with 8 coaches, no explanation given, not even an apology

From what I could see this morning as we approached East Croydon from Redhill, the actual work was the replacement of a stretch of track several hundred yards south of platform 6 ('track 5', if you will), about a third of the way to South Croydon. It's possible that work was proceeding there without being obvious from the station. Also, it was 'over-running' work, rather than 'emergency' work according to the information we were given.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not aimed at you, I was just aware that it's drifted a bit from the original topic of the London Bridge re-modelling's effects on the service.

It turned into a general comment thread about Southern about 10 months ago. I said as much as the first anniversary approached.

I don't think the 'London Bridge project' itself accounts for many of todays Southern/Thameslink issues at all.

 

[Deepgreen]

It turned into a general comment thread about Southern about 10 months ago. I said as much as the first anniversary approached.

I don't think the 'London Bridge project' itself accounts for many of todays Southern/Thameslink issues at all.

That certainly seems to be true. Should we continue to use this thread for Brighton line/southern end TSGN issues, or start a new one?

 

[Class377/5]

I see the following two were also cancelled. Some interesting times on the National Rail Enquiries App.

It's OK I understand. I just thought precisely the same thing as you earlier today.

While I was at Victoria a few days ago there were PA announcements about an 09xx departure being delayed...at 1545!

The werid times is due to the same headcodes being in use twice in a day and the system getting confused I believe.

 

[southern442]

If it were South West Trains, they would explain why the line is closed all day and the works being taken at night but this is Southern so I suspect they didn't.

As a side note, according to an interview with Metro, did you now that South West Trains is Zac Goldsmith's least favourite London Underground line?

Again today, there were a few problems on the Sutton lines, and because London Overground's information system is so great, it got confused and gave no information. The train this morning was also 3 minutes late for no reason.

 

[tsr]

From what I could see this morning as we approached East Croydon from Redhill, the actual work was the replacement of a stretch of track several hundred yards south of platform 6 ('track 5', if you will), about a third of the way to South Croydon. It's possible that work was proceeding there without being obvious from the station. Also, it was 'over-running' work, rather than 'emergency' work according to the information we were given.

That'll be the Down [Brighton] Slow, which of course you'd be familiar with the name of, as you have previously seemed to allow us to think you know every single braking point between Betchworth and Clapham Junction...

The overrun of the works had to be dealt with the next night as a possession of the Up Slow, Slow Reversible and Down Slow was required between East Croydon and South Croydon (approximately - in fact those lines were basically inaccessible between Purley North Jn and Windmill Bridge Jn). When I passed it on the night after the overrun, when the work was being completed, resources were definitely being thrown at getting the job done, with plenty of p-way equipment and staff on site. However, various equipment was left on site, including lighting and cabling, during the day.

As for the chaos mentioned, that it was not. Yes, there was congestion, and yes, some trains were definitely delayed, but the contingency arrangements worked well, for the most part. I was working in the East Croydon area throughout the morning peak and there was certainly no form of chaos. It was a disrupted service, with additional stops arranged for connections, and the station platforms at Selhurst used as a temporary turnback. In fact I happened to be responsible for alerting the staff to some of the alterations at several local stations at the start of service, though this was more by fluke than by plan (I simply happened to have been sent the information, and they wanted me to tell them...).

 

[Bald Rick]

To add to tsr's post, the decision to leave the work incomplete was a deliberate one. The job got into trouble overnight, and it was a choice of

1) a 2h+ overrun of the line being worked on and the line next to it, with no guarantee of completion (as some resources were out of hours and replacements had yet to be confirmed), or,

2) leave the one line closed all day (and no work being done, as the adjacent line is open) and come back that night to complete.

Right decision methinks.

 

[neilm]

Thank you not a single word from GTR about this though.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would say that in this case GTR made the right decisions and their plan coped remarkably well given a whole track was out of bounds even in rush hour.

 

[southern442]

I would say that in this case GTR made the right decisions and their plan coped remarkably well given a whole track was out of bounds even in rush hour.

Remarkably well? They didn't seem to bother with announcing short formations - a 12-car train just out of the blue turned up with 8 cars and I just about made it on!

Today the train was 2 minutes late arriving into Wallington again and this time it caused me to miss my bus. Not exactly a bad delay, but you cannot let the fact that these trains are consistently late even after they padded out the timetable!

 

[Deepgreen]

That'll be the Down [Brighton] Slow, which of course you'd be familiar with the name of, as you have previously seemed to allow us to think you know every single braking point between Betchworth and Clapham Junction...

The overrun of the works had to be dealt with the next night as a possession of the Up Slow, Slow Reversible and Down Slow was required between East Croydon and South Croydon (approximately - in fact those lines were basically inaccessible between Purley North Jn and Windmill Bridge Jn). When I passed it on the night after the overrun, when the work was being completed, resources were definitely being thrown at getting the job done, with plenty of p-way equipment and staff on site. However, various equipment was left on site, including lighting and cabling, during the day.

As for the chaos mentioned, that it was not. Yes, there was congestion, and yes, some trains were definitely delayed, but the contingency arrangements worked well, for the most part. I was working in the East Croydon area throughout the morning peak and there was certainly no form of chaos. It was a disrupted service, with additional stops arranged for connections, and the station platforms at Selhurst used as a temporary turnback. In fact I happened to be responsible for alerting the staff to some of the alterations at several local stations at the start of service, though this was more by fluke than by plan (I simply happened to have been sent the information, and they wanted me to tell them...).

Hmmm - your aggressive response to my post seems to imply that you think I was being critical of the work being done - I wasn't, I was merely pointing out that the work location was not at the station, which is why Southern442 might not have seen work proceeding on site. Indeed, in my slightly earlier post I actually expressed pleasant surprise that my journey was so little affected by the issue.

Yes, as someone who travels the route twice a day and has a professional and personal interest in the railway, I do know the normal braking points, signal locations and PSRs en route, but of course TSRs sometimes arise, as with anywhere else. I referred to the track as no. 5 for Southern442's benefit in case he was unaware of the nomenclature - some might assume that 'track 4' (i.e. Brighton slow reversible) was the down slow as it has the more direct alignment through South Croydon.

 

[infobleep]

That'll be the Down [Brighton] Slow, which of course you'd be familiar with the name of, as you have previously seemed to allow us to think you know every single braking point between Betchworth and Clapham Junction...

The overrun of the works had to be dealt with the next night as a possession of the Up Slow, Slow Reversible and Down Slow was required between East Croydon and South Croydon (approximately - in fact those lines were basically inaccessible between Purley North Jn and Windmill Bridge Jn). When I passed it on the night after the overrun, when the work was being completed, resources were definitely being thrown at getting the job done, with plenty of p-way equipment and staff on site. However, various equipment was left on site, including lighting and cabling, during the day.

As for the chaos mentioned, that it was not. Yes, there was congestion, and yes, some trains were definitely delayed, but the contingency arrangements worked well, for the most part. I was working in the East Croydon area throughout the morning peak and there was certainly no form of chaos. It was a disrupted service, with additional stops arranged for connections, and the station platforms at Selhurst used as a temporary turnback. In fact I happened to be responsible for alerting the staff to some of the alterations at several local stations at the start of service, though this was more by fluke than by plan (I simply happened to have been sent the information, and they wanted me to tell them...).

Not to mention cancellations during the day from Brighton. Basically all the Victoria trains cancelled. I didn't notice this happening in the morning peak though, when surely more trains run.

Sometimes how they were also able to do run trains in the mid to late afternoon too, despite no work, being done.

The cancellations were put down to the engineering works.

 

[grid56126]

Not to mention cancellations during the day from Brighton. Basically all the Victoria trains cancelled. I didn't notice this happening in the morning peak though, when surely more trains run.

Sometimes how they were also able to do run trains in the mid to late afternoon too, despite no work, being done.

The cancellations were put down to the engineering works.

That was the right reason, however this was down to a track defect in the Down loop at Haywards Heath causing the fast Brightons to be lost in favour of keeping the East / West splitters in place.

 

[Sunset route]

That was the right reason, however this was down to a track defect in the Down loop at Haywards Heath causing the fast Brightons to be lost in favour of keeping the East / West splitters in place.

In fact the rail defect was on 1786 points in the down main direction (normal) not the down loop direction (reverse) but your right on the effect on the service, as the Brighton semi's couldn't pass the the Coastway splitters.

 

[infobleep]

That was the right reason, however this was down to a track defect in the Down loop at Haywards Heath causing the fast Brightons to be lost in favour of keeping the East / West splitters in place.

Well personally I think a general disruption notice should have been put up about it because all I could see was the one about East Croydon and so I lumped it together, which was as it turns out incorrect.

The fact so many trains were cancelled and Southern didn't want to put a general notice out about it seem odd but this is Southern. I bet South West Trains wouldn't do that.