The issue I have with this announcement is that people who attempt to board (when the doors close) won't hear it and anyone who really wanted off the train probably wouldn't take much notice - not helped by the announcements being very quiet on the GWR DDA compliant 150s. I've seen somebody pull open a set of 150 doors before (at a local door only stop) and jump down!
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Passengers boarding while doors are closing
- Thread starter Dave1987
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The issue I have with this announcement is that people who attempt to board (when the doors close) won't hear it and anyone who really wanted off the train probably wouldn't take much notice - not helped by the announcements being very quiet on the GWR DDA compliant 150s. I've seen somebody pull open a set of 150 doors before (at a local door only stop) and jump down!
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greaterwest
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Oh dear!
The 150s currently don't have automated announcements (except the ex wessex trains units which have a generic safety announcement)
As the Turbos are going West soon, this will be less of an issue. Also like I said earlier, they'll know for future when they board the next train :roll:
I suppose people wouldn't / don't really pay attention anyway, I don't know how much it helps (if at all). It's just a nice thing to have, in any case.
150219, 150238 and 150232 have been fitted with PIS recently - Automated announcements and electronic display screens. Quite rare to see them switched on/functioning properly though!
Although a bit grating when you've heard them 100 times, the generic safety announcements on some of the 150/2s are loud and clear.
When you hear the hussle alarm you can press the "door open" button. If the doors reopen you can get on, if they don't you can't.
greaterwest
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I wondered whether that was the case, because I have seen a 150 (or probably several) with LED exterior displays. Thanks for confirming this.
Some poor soul followed that advice and suffered life changing injuries. Turns out the doors can re-open during the hustle alarm, only to slam shut with even greater speed and force a few seconds later.
There will always be a very small number of idiots who behave in this way.
IMHO, there are a number of reasons why it's presently more than a "very small number".
There is a simmering mutual contempt between passengers and staff. Whether it be the high price of travel, not getting a seat, trains running late - many passengers are simply not happy to be on the railway and don't respect the industry.
You see posters saying how the doors close 30 seconds before the scheduled departure time - but then so often they don't. So often trains depart a few seconds after the scheduled time, or even a minute or two (and are still regarded as on time). So passengers don't respect the need to get trains away on time. Another few seconds won't make a difference, as far as they are concerned.
I'm most familiar with East Croydon. Passengers still have unclear information as to which platform to go to for, say, a fast train to Victoria. They go down the long ramp to platform 1, only to find that the next fast train is platform 4. Or a 4 carriage train comes in, and stops well beyond the end of the platform - so people have to run to make the end of the train. The passenger displays often don't show how long the train will be. Sometimes trains are removed from the displays as they become "ready to depart". Sometimes they are still showing well after a train has left. Even when a train is shown as expected on time, it can come in a minute or two late. So if you're on the concourse at, say, 15:00 and a train is due and expected at 15:00, you know it's probably still worth running for it.
On Thursday, I was travelling from East Croydon at around 5pm. A 4-carriage train comes in a couple of minutes late. Passengers stand back to let people off first, it's very full. Whilst people are still disembarking, the dispatcher starts blowing his whistle. What are people expected to do? It just ups the ante. Some people start pushing on whilst others are still getting off.
So we can talk new byelaws and even have yet more penalty fares and/or prosecutions. But I don't think it will help....
IMHO, there are a number of reasons why it's presently more than a "very small number".
There is a simmering mutual contempt between passengers and staff. Whether it be the high price of travel, not getting a seat, trains running late - many passengers are simply not happy to be on the railway and don't respect the industry.
You see posters saying how the doors close 30 seconds before the scheduled departure time - but then so often they don't. So often trains depart a few seconds after the scheduled time, or even a minute or two (and are still regarded as on time). So passengers don't respect the need to get trains away on time. Another few seconds won't make a difference, as far as they are concerned.
I'm most familiar with East Croydon. Passengers still have unclear information as to which platform to go to for, say, a fast train to Victoria. They go down the long ramp to platform 1, only to find that the next fast train is platform 4. Or a 4 carriage train comes in, and stops well beyond the end of the platform - so people have to run to make the end of the train. The passenger displays often don't show how long the train will be. Sometimes trains are removed from the displays as they become "ready to depart". Sometimes they are still showing well after a train has left. Even when a train is shown as expected on time, it can come in a minute or two late. So if you're on the concourse at, say, 15:00 and a train is due and expected at 15:00, you know it's probably still worth running for it.
On Thursday, I was travelling from East Croydon at around 5pm. A 4-carriage train comes in a couple of minutes late. Passengers stand back to let people off first, it's very full. Whilst people are still disembarking, the dispatcher starts blowing his whistle. What are people expected to do? It just ups the ante. Some people start pushing on whilst others are still getting off.
So we can talk new byelaws and even have yet more penalty fares and/or prosecutions. But I don't think it will help....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I do find Southern/SWT dispatch staff at innersuburban stations very aggressive in this regard - unnecessarily so, really.
If it takes 5 minutes to board people there, just write it into the timetable and be done with the stress and risk.
bramling
Veteran Member
Some poor soul followed that advice and suffered life changing injuries. Turns out the doors can re-open during the hustle alarm, only to slam shut with even greater speed and force a few seconds later.
It wasn't quite as simple as that. The scenario seems to mainly affect Networker-type trains, which is that if no door in the car is already open, no hustle alarm will sound when the door close sequence is initiated by the driver (if you're in the right place you might hear the distinctive click of the relays engaging at the start of the sequence). During this time the door buttons remain enabled and (I think) illuminated. If you press the button during this time the door will open, but when the next stage of the sequence is reached the door will immediately close with no warning, as the hustle alarm stops when the doors start to close.
I think some or all of the refreshed 365s have been modified so that the alarm continues to sound during the actual time the doors close. I'm not sure if they also sound during the early stages of the sequence if no door is open in the car.
If you built in 5 minutes at every stop though the timetable becomes unworkable and you'd have to run far less trains. On SWT from Wimbledon-Waterloo the peak service is a tube like frequency and has tube like crowding. People often aren't going to be able to board the first train in the peak, and next one is probaby only 3 minutes away anyway. Despatch has to be quite aggressive just to keep the service moving.
It affects a few fleets other than Networkers but the ROSCO's are working on modifications to prevent this scenario happening.
Any vehicle built post privatisation does not have this problem as the door controls are disabled as soon as the door close sequence is started.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Tube has the same issues, and while their approach is somewhat "waffly" (standclearofthedoorsmindthedoorsmindthedoorsplease) it is more than a little less aggressive and more polite while achieving exactly the same thing with exactly the same kinds of loadings.
QueensCurve
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In my experience the number of doors left open was proportional to to the minutes late of the train.
I used to worry a lot at Paddington in the peak when my HST was in reverse and I was despatching from the TGS, (non CDL door) nearly got dragged out onto the platform a few times by those who simply wouldn't listen that the train was locked and driver had been signalled to depart.
Cue: lots of abuse/threats and downright stupidity.
I took to locking the door with my carriage key after receiving the platform tips until we had passed the end of the platform, almost certainly not rules-compliant but it saved me a great deal of potential danger IMHO.
Quite a lot of guards would flip their CDL keys at CDL locked despatch doors also to prevent being dragged out also IIRC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Didcot passengers would do this deliberately (leave doors wide open and ensure you could see them deliberately doing so) to signify their annoyance with delayed journeys from Paddington, not at all helpful since the platform was unstaffed the majority of the time.
Once smirking fool told me he'd done it one evening and I responded 'what do I care? I get paid overtime! -you should apologise to your fellow passengers mate!'
Very annoying indeed however on the Hereford line when delaying the train 2 minutes at every 2 bit station would soon rack up the delay.
Cue: lots of abuse/threats and downright stupidity.
I took to locking the door with my carriage key after receiving the platform tips until we had passed the end of the platform, almost certainly not rules-compliant but it saved me a great deal of potential danger IMHO.
Quite a lot of guards would flip their CDL keys at CDL locked despatch doors also to prevent being dragged out also IIRC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Didcot passengers would do this deliberately (leave doors wide open and ensure you could see them deliberately doing so) to signify their annoyance with delayed journeys from Paddington, not at all helpful since the platform was unstaffed the majority of the time.
Once smirking fool told me he'd done it one evening and I responded 'what do I care? I get paid overtime! -you should apologise to your fellow passengers mate!'
Very annoying indeed however on the Hereford line when delaying the train 2 minutes at every 2 bit station would soon rack up the delay.
bramling
Veteran Member
I find it amazing that people would be so bloody-minded as to delay their fellow already-delayed passengers further by doing this! That really is utterly pathetic behaviour.
Yes, well they definitely did it and very deliberately too!
I did make a PA to inform the passengers we'd lost 4 minutes due to excessive doors left open at Didcot and a few regulars asked me about this and I recounted the story, they were shocked, but it happened more than once -Didcot, Kemble, Bridgend, Chippenham and a few others had small minded ****s in those days.
There are plenty of bloody minded people about if you go out of your way to find them.
I had a lovely letter written in once praising me & my assisting conductor for running around closing doors to keep the Padd-Hereford train on time once -I didn't have the heart to admit it was actually because we were frightened stiff we'd be delayed on our empty coaching stock trip back to Bristol via Severn Tunnel as we'd be class 5 and lowest of the low in terms of traffic if we were late at all!
I did make a PA to inform the passengers we'd lost 4 minutes due to excessive doors left open at Didcot and a few regulars asked me about this and I recounted the story, they were shocked, but it happened more than once -Didcot, Kemble, Bridgend, Chippenham and a few others had small minded ****s in those days.
There are plenty of bloody minded people about if you go out of your way to find them.
I had a lovely letter written in once praising me & my assisting conductor for running around closing doors to keep the Padd-Hereford train on time once -I didn't have the heart to admit it was actually because we were frightened stiff we'd be delayed on our empty coaching stock trip back to Bristol via Severn Tunnel as we'd be class 5 and lowest of the low in terms of traffic if we were late at all!
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axlecounter
Member
Don't all doors have sensitive edges to avoid injuries, except maybe undergrounds?
No, they do not. There are quite a few units that would happily get interlock with your finger trapped in the door. And a few that might with your wrist in there.
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
Happened in Newcastle with a 185. Yes it has been established that the inexperienced (at least with the stock anyway but) conductor failed to despatch the train correctly. However, the fact a woman was able to become trapped in the doors with the doors closed and interlocked around her wrist is still quite comcerning. 185 doors will bounce open on the first time an obstacle is detected, but will attempt to close a second time and go for interlock. Wether this is unique to 185's or a design flaw with the desiro fleet remains to be seen, but as they passed legislation at the time of introduction, i dont think anyone is overly keen or concerned to investigate further......
Why don't we have trains here with clearer visual warnings when doors are closing? Like this train in Munich: https://youtu.be/ZBms8aaAOmE
I think the new trains we've had in the last 5 or 6 years have all missed a trick.
I reckon an external PA for the driver on DOO trains, nothing crazy loud, just a small speaker on the outside of every coach so the driver can tell people to stand clear. The amount of people still jabbing at door buttons even as the train starts to move.
I won't generally re-release doors (busy network, not long to wait for next train), although sometimes as has been said before, the safest place for someone fully intent on launching themselves at the side of the train is in fact, on the train.
I won't generally re-release doors (busy network, not long to wait for next train), although sometimes as has been said before, the safest place for someone fully intent on launching themselves at the side of the train is in fact, on the train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, the external PA is usual on German U- and S-Bahn trains, and seems an excellent idea - it would even allow correction of known incorrect PIS information and the likes.
Zurueckbleiben, bitte!
Only UK stock I've seen with visual doors closing indications is Desiros (the hazard lights flash on 350/2 and newer, 350/1 originally didn't but may have been converted) and the strobes retrofitted to some Class 156s.
Zurueckbleiben, bitte!
Only UK stock I've seen with visual doors closing indications is Desiros (the hazard lights flash on 350/2 and newer, 350/1 originally didn't but may have been converted) and the strobes retrofitted to some Class 156s.
I think all my units have visual and audible closing door indications.
Philip Phlopp
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RAIB, Siemens and TransPennine staff investigated fully, there's 47 pages of an RAIB report on the issue.
It's an issue that appear to affect the entire Desiro fleet when fitted with pneumatically operated doors, with similar incidents reported by London Midland and Heathrow Connect.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/410616/140918_R192014_Newcastle.pdf
Yes, the external PA is usual on German U- and S-Bahn trains, and seems an excellent idea - it would even allow correction of known incorrect PIS information and the likes.
Zurueckbleiben, bitte!
It could also be used to tell us important safety information like
"24 hour CCTV recording is in operation at this station for the purpose of security and safety management"
"This is a security announcement. Customers are reminded not to leave luggage or belongings unattended, as they may be removed or destroyed without notice, by the security services."
"This is a safety announcement. Due to today's inclement weather, please take extra care whilst on the station. Surfaces may be slippery."
Envy123
Member
To be fair, "Will the passengers intending to travel on this service please join the train now, as it's ready to leave" does create this sense of urgency, especially when you're frantically trying to find the platform in a London Terminal station.
Yes, the external PA is usual on German U- and S-Bahn trains, and seems an excellent idea - it would even allow correction of known incorrect PIS information and the likes.
Zurueckbleiben, bitte!
Only UK stock I've seen with visual doors closing indications is Desiros (the hazard lights flash on 350/2 and newer, 350/1 originally didn't but may have been converted) and the strobes retrofitted to some Class 156s.
If you mean body side hazard lights on the Desiros they flash when the guard is keyed in in that vehicle rather than anything to do with the doors closing.
I thought the strobes were standard on 156s and later removed to allow things like CCTV to be fitted in their place.
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