• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should AT300's be ordered for CrossCountry and East Midlands Trains

Status
Not open for further replies.

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
What's the maximum speed that any unit with a corridor connection like the 380s could run at?

In terms of crashworthiness then 110 mph ought to be realistic, as they are successors to 350s which already do 110 mph.

Before 350s were modified as they have been then I'm sure some would have said 100 mph was the max, but there's been no obvious changes made to the cab structure for the uprating.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
Thinking about it they probably will just end up with voyagers just doubled up for the time being anyway.

Must admit by the sounds of it 5 car BiMode AT300 would be perfect for them!

I would like to see an expanded XC network again! Like serving Liverpool.

I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.
 
Last edited:

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.

Nope, I'd run with that - I've said before on here that I expect a huge franchise reorginisation post HS2 anyways - as four mainline franchises will get there legs kicked from beneath them. Kings Cross, St Pancras and Marylebone will become more close in commuter centric.
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,003
I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.

I'd be inclined to agree given the new emphasis for TPE on providing an intercity service... whether or not XC & TPE would ever be merged is a different matter because Rail North have significant control over the TPE franchise as it is and are pushing for full devolution of the TPE & Northern franchises when they are due for re-franchising in the 2020s.

Nope, I'd run with that - I've said before on here that I expect a huge franchise reorginisation post HS2 anyways - as four mainline franchises will get there legs kicked from beneath them. Kings Cross, St Pancras and Marylebone will become more close in commuter centric.

I don't think much change can be expected for the current EMT or Chiltern mainline services whatever happens - Chiltern has always been commuter centric and HS2 won't really change its Birmingham market. I'd suggest the Virgin services will become more like Chiltern Mainline - about providing journey opportunities that aren't necessarily between London and Birmingham but rather Rugby & Milton Keynes will be more important for them. As for EMT mainline services, crucially HS2 doesn't really impact on Leicester - which will need to keep its 2tph non-stop to St Pancras as a minimum - or on intra-regional flows between Leicester/Derby & Nottingham which are catered for by EMT mainline services.
 
Last edited:

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.

I would have thought a merger with the intercity half of London Midland. With the local services splintered off. You could then 'devolve' TPE & Northern to Rail North, and Xcountry to an equivelent in what ever the government is calling the midlands these days, (Midlands Engine the last time I heard)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nope, I'd run with that - I've said before on here that I expect a huge franchise reorginisation post HS2 anyways - as four mainline franchises will get there legs kicked from beneath them. Kings Cross, St Pancras and Marylebone will become more close in commuter centric.

You may be right about Kings X and Marylebone, But St Pancras has been marked out as the international Hub. So I foresee the long term future of that to be serving the missing part of the inverted A of HS2 joining London with the HS2 station in the East Midlands.
 

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,254
How quickly could the "diesel engine modules" be installed if it was known that a diversionary route might be used for long enough that has no overhead?

On enough trains, with the software updates to enable diesel power and testing to make sure it all works properly? days.

Oh and don't forget to change them back afterwards.
 
Last edited:

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.

I'd go with that, and add in the unwanted stepchild that falls outside the two that is the Liverpool-Norwich service
 

Emblematic

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2013
Messages
659
On enough trains, with the software updates to enable diesel power and testing to make sure it all works properly? days.

Oh and don't forget to change them back afterwards.

Suspension changes too, most likely. Having said that, it would be nice to know exactly what differences there are in the suspension setup when the genset is present or absent. I assume it's not a Desiro-style concrete block, and doubt it's within the range of any automatic self-levelling system.
 

Haydn1971

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2012
Messages
2,099
Location
Sheffield
You may be right about Kings X and Marylebone, But St Pancras has been marked out as the international Hub. So I foresee the long term future of that to be serving the missing part of the inverted A of HS2 joining London with the HS2 station in the East Midlands.

Fair cop, yes, agreed completely, perhaps scope to move Javalin services to the EMT bays and provide more room for international services in the current Javalin bays.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
I might get my head bitten off, but frankly I think XC and TPE should be merged into one franchise... It's silly to have them each centred on a single city.
I think that would overcomplicate the Crosscountry franchise, and that XC works far better as a Birmingham-centric operation.

I still think it strange that TPE was split from the local services a matter of months before a combined Northern Rail franchise was created, and feel that TPE and Northern would be more effective as a combined operation. However, separating the TPE operation from Northern local services has brought benefits in terms of rolling stock and cheap advance fares (neither of which Crosscountry are renowned for, incidentally ;)).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nope, I'd run with that - I've said before on here that I expect a huge franchise reorginisation post HS2 anyways - as four mainline franchises will get there legs kicked from beneath them. Kings Cross, St Pancras and Marylebone will become more close in commuter centric.
I can't see HS2 having a great impact on services in and out of Marylebone; Chiltern already is fairly commuter-centric, the majority of services are fairly regular stop with a lot of intermediate markets served en route between Birmingham and Marylebone.
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
Fair cop, yes, agreed completely, perhaps scope to move Javalin services to the EMT bays and provide more room for international services in the current Javalin bays.

I was thinking more a future lengthening of the EMT bays over the concourse to be full 400m European gauge platforms. Combined with a HS2+ upgrade os the MML to GC Gauge, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield and E-Midlands services terminating here Freeing up Euston for services to the West.

;) Not in my lifetime though ;)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The old TPE was an overblown regional express service and probably made more sense as part of Northern.

The new TPE appears to be becoming true InterCity, and perhaps *is* better separate. Mind you, GWR is both and (just about) works.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
Fair cop, yes, agreed completely, perhaps scope to move Javalin services to the EMT bays and provide more room for international services in the current Javalin bays.

There are six international platforms and there is no sign of any more being needed for a very long time.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
An AT300 fleet would be able to use the overhead electric wires that already exist between Glasgow and Doncaster, while being able to carry more passengers. The MML electrification will add Derby to Sheffield, TP will add Leeds to York and another thread here says that a parliamentary answer suggests that Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster will likely be the only extra wiring scheme approved for CP6.

You wouldn't be able to link to the parliamentry answer by any chance?

110mph in small sections south of Bristol, no 125mph running at all.

46m 31ch (single track miles) at 125mph between Birmingham and Derby via Tamworth (33m 27ch being 90/HST125, 13m 4ch being 125). There's a further 6m 10ch of 120mph line.

It's listed for electrification in the forthcoming Electrification RUS update (but would still need DfT approval).

And the Treasury. Wasn't Bristol to Derby also a pet project of Cameron and Osborne? They made a big announcement about it at Bombardier Derby early last year as I recall.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
You wouldn't be able to link to the parliamentry answer by any chance?



And the Treasury. Wasn't Bristol to Derby also a pet project of Cameron and Osborne? They made a big announcement about it at Bombardier Derby early last year as I recall.

Yes. Bristol to Bromsgrove (and upgrading/completing Bromsgrove to Birmingham) will be one of the schemes put forward for the next series of electrification projects.

I've not heard about the parliamentary question/answer, but it's not going to be too far off, GWML, MML and North TP all continue into CP6, Scotland should be doing Dunblane to Dundee during CP6, so there's not going to be much time and little manpower/plant available to do much before 2024.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
You wouldn't be able to link to the parliamentry answer by any chance?

And the Treasury. Wasn't Bristol to Derby also a pet project of Cameron and Osborne? They made a big announcement about it at Bombardier Derby early last year as I recall.

Yes. Bristol to Bromsgrove (and upgrading/completing Bromsgrove to Birmingham) will be one of the schemes put forward for the next series of electrification projects.

I've not heard about the parliamentary question/answer, but it's not going to be too far off, GWML, MML and North TP all continue into CP6, Scotland should be doing Dunblane to Dundee during CP6, so there's not going to be much time and little manpower/plant available to do much before 2024.

Here's the original quote from snowball in the " Potential sites for a new Northern DMU depot" thread:

The current issue of Rail magazine (797, page 7) reports a parliamentary answer given by McLoughlin on 10 March to the effect that no new electrification is planned in the north before 2024 (i.e. the end of CP6) except the extension of the MML wiring from Sheffield to Doncaster and towards Wakefield.

Of course, the CP6 HLOS (or whatever replaces it following the Shaw review) has yet to be written, but with MML and TP extending well into CP6, and with Windermere and Lostock-Wigan yet to be reprogrammed, I'd be surprised if very much else was scheduled for CP6.

I can't actually find that answer in Hansard and I don't have access to Rail magazine so I can't say anything more than what's quoted here.
 

freetoview33

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
3,721
Location
West of England
How about in addition to the current CrossCountry network the following services

Liverpool - Norwich
Reading - Norwich (East-West)
Cardiff - Liverpool (The proposed Cardiff - Bristol Parkway - Birmingham service along with London Midland Birmingham - Liverpool)
Leeds - Stansted (via Nottingham)
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
Nope, I'd run with that - I've said before on here that I expect a huge franchise reorginisation post HS2 anyways - as four mainline franchises will get there legs kicked from beneath them. Kings Cross, St Pancras and Marylebone will become more close in commuter centric.

I think you and I will find (if we're both still alive) that very little will change on the MML once HS2 is opened. Indeed this is what both NR and DfT are both suggesting. Sheffield and the East Midlands is pretty much an after thought in terms of HS2 and I certainly don't blame the Government for having that mindset.

I find all this talk of running HS2 services between Sheffield city centre and Leeds very interesting given that in the past some forum members have suggested that Meadowhall is the future in terms of a transport 'hub'.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,284
I can't see HS2 having a great impact on services in and out of Marylebone; Chiltern already is fairly commuter-centric, the majority of services are fairly regular stop with a lot of intermediate markets served en route between Birmingham and Marylebone.

Which is one of the reasons that I think that Chiltern would be a good home for 22x's (to free up other DNU's to go elsewhere), as although they wouldn't need their top speed, the faster acceleration would be very useful and may allow a stop or two to be added for little or no journey time loss. Of course it would really only work if the unit lengths were longer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You still have more cost and weight per seat than on a 158 or 170, in fact more cost if you've scrapped some coaches and re-configured the others. For this you get the benefit of some extra seating in the same length and a through gangway, but the set is no longer divisible to cope with variations in demand. The leasing cost would have to go pretty low to make up for the various extra operating costs.

The issue with 22x's is that there are few places that they are ideally suited for (most now due wires or bimodals) even those places where they could be useful are fairly limited (I.e. 90-100mph for much of the way). As such there is always going to be more demand for Sprinter type units over the 22x's. Therefore once XC opt for another type of train (I.e. AT300's) then the lease costs of the 22x's fall.
 

180zephyr

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
42
Location
Winchester
scotrail will have a lot of turbostarts after they get their 5-car ex-GWR HSTs and glasgow-edinburgh electrification.

also, what about having 67s free from chiltern hauling mk4s dispersed from ECML?
 

glbotu

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2012
Messages
644
Location
Oxford
How about in addition to the current CrossCountry network the following services

Liverpool - Norwich
Reading - Norwich (East-West)
Cardiff - Liverpool (The proposed Cardiff - Bristol Parkway - Birmingham service along with London Midland Birmingham - Liverpool)
Leeds - Stansted (via Nottingham)

Why are we trying to make XC bigger? Personally, I would suggest removing a lot of the regional services from XC allowing them to focus on being an LDHS operator, trimming the franchise right down to the NE - SW mainline and NW - SW services. If they get paths on EWR via WCML, they can improve that service and add frequency and trains and whatever else.

The reason they have the Cardiff - Nottinghams and Birmingham - Leicesters (- Stansted) is because the 170s are maintained at Tyseley and the drivers based at New Street. Reading - Norwich (sure, why not Norwich), doesn't go near Tyseley/New Street, so it doesn't seem to make too much sense to run it that way.

From a business area perspective, all of the services you've proposed adding to the XC franchise are regional services (not even regional expresses really), many of which could possibly do with either their own separate franchise, or be combined with some other existing franchises who deal in regional services, where convenient.

4 - 5 car intercity units like the 22X series, however poorly thought through, would not really be welcome on any of the more regional services, because they'd not be able to make many of the sprinter speed differentials required, so would actually be slower. They'd also not create any massive capacity increases, because they aren't units designed for capacity, they're (badly) designed for comfort.


Glossary for TLAs:

LDHS - Long Distance High-Speed
XC - Cross Coutroy
NE - North East
SW - South West
EWR - East-West Rail
WCML - West Coast Mainline
TLA - Three Letter Acronym
 
Last edited:

47802

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Messages
3,455
scotrail will have a lot of turbostarts after they get their 5-car ex-GWR HSTs and glasgow-edinburgh electrification.
.

No they wont as per widely documented elsewhere 16 are going to Northern and an extra 13 will be retained by Scotrail for increased growth.
 
Last edited:

Mark62

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
312
I realise this is a forlorn hope but maybe we could have some comfortable rolling stock similar to what ran over 30 years ago. Maybe some legroom and more lavatories. I know I, being silly here. Why would anyone want to be able to move their legs and not queue for an hour at the lavatory on a 600 mile journey?
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
Why are we trying to make XC bigger? Personally, I would suggest removing a lot of the regional services from XC allowing them to focus on being an LDHS operator, trimming the franchise right down to the NE - SW mainline and NW - SW services. If they get paths on EWR via WCML, they can improve that service and add frequency and trains and whatever else.

Personally I think XC should cover Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street and not EMT. A second Cardiff to New Street should be an exyension of the Nottingham to Birmingham service and East West Rail services should be part of Cross Country.

The reason they have the Cardiff - Nottinghams and Birmingham - Leicesters (- Stansted) is because the 170s are maintained at Tyseley and the drivers based at New Street. Reading - Norwich (sure, why not Norwich), doesn't go near Tyseley/New Street, so it doesn't seem to make too much sense to run it that way.

East West were they to use 170s could be maintained at Crown Point (Norwich) and / or get to Tyseley via either Cambridge or Reading, an early and late service operating between Reading and New Street in both directions, could solve this.
 

freetoview33

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2009
Messages
3,721
Location
West of England
Why are we trying to make XC bigger? Personally, I would suggest removing a lot of the regional services from XC allowing them to focus on being an LDHS operator, trimming the franchise right down to the NE - SW mainline and NW - SW services. If they get paths on EWR via WCML, they can improve that service and add frequency and trains and whatever else.

The reason they have the Cardiff - Nottinghams and Birmingham - Leicesters (- Stansted) is because the 170s are maintained at Tyseley and the drivers based at New Street. Reading - Norwich (sure, why not Norwich), doesn't go near Tyseley/New Street, so it doesn't seem to make too much sense to run it that way.

From a business area perspective, all of the services you've proposed adding to the XC franchise are regional services (not even regional expresses really), many of which could possibly do with either their own separate franchise, or be combined with some other existing franchises who deal in regional services, where convenient.

4 - 5 car intercity units like the 22X series, however poorly thought through, would not really be welcome on any of the more regional services, because they'd not be able to make many of the sprinter speed differentials required, so would actually be slower. They'd also not create any massive capacity increases, because they aren't units designed for capacity, they're (badly) designed for comfort.


Glossary for TLAs:

LDHS - Long Distance High-Speed
XC - Cross Coutroy
NE - North East
SW - South West
EWR - East-West Rail
WCML - West Coast Mainline
TLA - Three Letter Acronym
Why not? This is about using AT300's not 220's
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,909
I can't actually find that answer in Hansard and I don't have access to Rail magazine so I can't say anything more than what's quoted here.

Thanks for linking the quote for me.

Interestingly it refers to no new electrification in the north until after 2024, however would one consider Bristol to Derby to be in the north?

Derby is north of Watford but I would hardly consider Bristol to Derby to be in the north. Hope maybe for 2019 - 2024 :P
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,284
I've posted elsewhere that a possible use for the 22x's is to use them for:

Scotrail - to replace the HST's

South West Trains - as 10 coach sets (Waterloo to Exeter - 0.5tph and 7 coach sets (Salisbury to Exeter 1.5tph) once electrification gets to Salisbury working with 2x5 coach 444's or equivalent running the remaining services between Salisbury and Waterloo

Chiltern - as 8 or 9 coach units to replace their loco sets and allow a cascade of their other units, either to provide for their own growth and/or to replace older units elsewhere


This is as very few of those services would benefit from bimodals due to the lack of OHLE's, therefore it would make more sense for XC to get the bimodals as there would be more wires.
 

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Why not? This is about using AT300's not 220's

You would be better having a Bristol to Norwich since XC have a depot at Bristol Temple Meads.

If there was such a service how would you get the AT300's from the west to the East of London to travel on to Norwich?
 

Kettledrum

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2010
Messages
790
Half the trouble with CrossCountry is that some services run almost empty - I've been on one out of Sheffield to Oxford, completely full with people standing to Birmingham, practically empty onwards, yet coming back, moderately busy to Birmingham and rammed again to Sheffield - I'm sure services are full at times between Birmingham and Oxford, but I've never experienced it. Seems more irregular than any other service I'm familiar with

Perhaps AT300s aren't right for XC, perhaps something like a end gangwayed and end door 3/4 car Bi-mode AT200 type unit running doubled or tripled up would make better work of pasenger loadings at the expense of top speed on stuff like ECML, something like the 444 ?

I must be travelling on the wrong XC trains at the wrong times. The only time I've found them to be quiet is at the extremes of the network at the end of the day. Around Birmingham, I've always found the trains very crowded. I was hoping that future trains would be 2x4 coach units coupled together, so that you'd have 8 coaches in the core around Birmingham in peak periods, but only 1 of the 4 coach units would be going to the very end of the line. EM trains run services doubled up (without gangways) in peak periods and that seems to work reasonably well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top