Too many bikes on train

[HLE]

First time this has actually happened to me. Guard refusing to allow my train to depart as too many bikes on train and aisles all blocked.

They are a hazard but it does highlight the lack of space for bikes, prams etc.

Anyway all resolved and we only 4 minutes late departing!

Just to clarify for all on here it was 8 bikes on a single 153

I will leave the rest of the traincrew on here to decide if that is reasonable to refuse boarding!!

And this particular service is always rammed to the rafters - full and standing in the vestibules and down the aisle.

Guard had every right to refuse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

this is a problem we have on the Marston Vale. It is rural and people cycle to the station for a 1 car 153. It is often very full of bikes which cause obstructions and delays in loading and unloading.

Cycle storage might help but the investment needed on a line like ours would never repay its costs. Easier to leave it to the guard to decide what to do. I wouldn't like to be the guard leaving people behind on a small station with one train an hour:

"sorry chum. 2 bikes on already. next train in an hour. buzz buzz."

Exactly the problem except it had 4 bikes in the rack already, when another 2 turned up.

Those 2 bikes ended up after much arguing, in the disabled chair space. Then at the next station another two bikes got on.

And on a service which is a single 153

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can be a nightmare on MAN - SHF hope valley route. A 142 and groups wanting to bring on bikes.

Another service that could do with being operated with a train with very high cycle capacity. Windermere again similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And on a service which is a single 153

Just shows that 153s are not, in 2016, fit for any purpose other than extending other Sprinter formations.

 

[HLE]

Another service that could do with being operated with a train with very high cycle capacity. Windermere again similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just shows that 153s are not, in 2016, fit for any purpose other than extending other Sprinter formations.

In the short term I would personally advocate a ban on bikes on this particular route on peak diagrams. The time lost due to bikes loading/unloading is ridiculous.

How it could be enforced is another headache though - or rather than outright ban, possibly ban boarding/unloading at intermediate stations

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the short term I would personally advocate a ban on bikes on this particular route on peak diagrams. The time lost due to bikes loading/unloading is ridiculous.

Or adjust the timetable. If there is space for the bikes, might as well let them on. 6 bikes on the train is 6 cars off the road.

 

[HLE]

Or adjust the timetable. If there is space for the bikes, might as well let them on. 6 bikes on the train is 6 cars off the road.

Not room for all the passengers if I'm honest let alone extra bikes.

And the timings are tight as it is in the morning. Paths into a main station are at a premium as it is

 

[timbo58]

6 bikes was always the max on an HST, I had a joker more than once either stuffing their bike in a vestibule after being told the van was full or asking me to put their bike in the power car, I didn't do it or accept it, not once.

Vestibules are tight enough without running the risk of trapping people in an emergency.
Power cars were liable to slam a bike around and damage it or have a 'fitter' tearing me off a strip for tripping over an unexpected bike, plus it was a PITA to have to run down and unlock the power car mid journey.

Or going through the TGS and ending up trapped due to some idiot who'd jammed his bike in the caged walkway through to the door.
It would receive a size 9 BR boot if it was there!

The problem always was (still is?) that if you jammed in more than 6 you'd be likely to end up damaging another machine.


I'm guessing most guards treat those with a bike after they are officially full up the same they do with all other 'favours' -the attitude test.-, i.e. someone who asks nicely in the knowledge you can refuse and is sensible will have a small chance of the guard saying yes, those who don't however......

Jobsworth?! I would laugh out loud at and advise them to 'write in to my manager as he thinks I don't give a stuff about my job'.........They never did!

 

[notlob.divad]

I am not sure if the title of this thread should be what it is, or "not enough space for bikes on trains."

My general opinion is it is the latter although I have to be honest if I was a regular cycle-rail commuter, I think I would go for the Dutch method, (2 bikes, one at each end).
When I do take a bike on a train it is as a leisure cyclist, and is on an occasional basis: It would be good if it was obvious before the train pulled into the station, where the best place to stand waiting with my bike is irrespective of the class of train / TOC / Station (simply standardizing either at each end or in the middle)so I didn't have to run the length of the train because I had guessed at the wrong one.
It would be good if I could sit in the vague vicinity of my bike meaning I don't have to trek the entire length of the train to find a seat, not be able to keep an eye on it during the journey, and then have to trek back the length of the train before it had reached the station I was alighting at so that I can be ready to get the bike off again.

I appreciate that cycles are not the only thing where these things would be good. Last year I had to travel from Merseyside to Derby with 2 large suitcases for a 4 month business trip abroad. Again getting on the train and not knowing where the luggage racks on the 'new' 319s to the Airport where (turns out there aren't any) was a concern. I asked the guard who suggested I used the wheelchair space. Thankfully another rail user did not require it.

In the rush to fit as many seats in as small a space as possible we seem to have forgotten that a significant number of people use the railways not just for transporting themselves and quite often travelling with luggage of any description will be the hurdle that prevents people using the rails instead of the road. Making the transport of bikes/luggage/prams easy again will be the next challenge that the railway has to overcome.

 

[BestWestern]

Another service that could do with being operated with a train with very high cycle capacity. Windermere again similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just shows that 153s are not, in 2016, fit for any purpose other than extending other Sprinter formations.

A 153 is no less fit for purpose than a brand new two car DMU would be if you tried to run it from Paddington to Penzance in the evening peak - a Class 153 is small, because it was intended to be. As is often the case, the issue is not the rolling stock but the way in which it is deployed. A 153 will actually accommodate more cycles than some trains twice the length; two can be carried in the 'disabled' tip-up seat bay at one end, and a further two in the lower luggage rack at the other end. A 158, for example, will carry two.

Ironically, one of the best units for bikes is the much derided Class 143, which will easily carry eight of the buggers!

 

[zoneking]

As a cyclist myself, precedence should take place for cyclists who are using the bicycle as a mode of transport - i.e to get from the station to their home or somewhere else and their bicycle is therefore essential. Sports cyclists, hobby and mountain bikers who are cycling for leisure are not doing essential journeys, and should have a lower priority, all things being equal and only if not enough room. Ideally everyone should be accommodated.

 

[ivanhoe]

As a cyclist myself, precedence should take place for cyclists who are using the bicycle as a mode of transport - i.e to get from the station to their home or somewhere else and their bicycle is therefore essential. Sports cyclists, hobby and mountain bikers who are cycling for leisure are not doing essential journeys, and should have a lower priority, all things being equal and only if not enough room. Ideally everyone should be accommodated.

As a cyclist myself, it's your choice to travel as such. You've maybe also purchased your bike through an employers scheme with resulting discounts. It's first come, first served, unless pre booked where possible, as far as I am concerned. Maybe charging will come back. I remember when BR did away with such charges but many trains had guards vans so the problem was much smaller. Smaller train formations coupled together( forgive pun) with a dramatic increase in cycle use, is exacerbating the problem. When I was in Chicago, buses had racks on the front to put bikes on. Now that would be an interesting development over here within our towns and cities.

 

[HLE]

As a cyclist myself, precedence should take place for cyclists who are using the bicycle as a mode of transport - i.e to get from the station to their home or somewhere else and their bicycle is therefore essential. Sports cyclists, hobby and mountain bikers who are cycling for leisure are not doing essential journeys, and should have a lower priority, all things being equal and only if not enough room. Ideally everyone should be accommodated.

As an 'everyday-cyclist' also - bikes should NOT take up space in which around 10 passengers could have stood in, a bit more comfortably. They could easily have been left behind because it was like sardines

 

[Matt Taylor]

Some of the worst are in and around Portsmouth.

Loads have bikes, they go to Fratton because they know that they don't need a ticket to travel, then travel to Hilsea get off and wait for the next one to get to either Cosham or Bedhampton to avoid paying up, some will do the few minutes ride to Cosham to reboard there unchallenged and free.

They go to Bedhampton because of the barriers at Havant.

Whilst this is correct I understand this incident was at Bournemouth this morning and involved the 0655 Weymouth-Waterloo.

 

[PermitToTravel]

What relevance has a long distance operator that only stops at barriered stations got to do with the thousands of commuter services which serve unbarriered stations?

How do you stop them getting onto the stations which are served by several operators?

The context was GW introducing cycle reservations - presumably they're only doing this on the HST routes, or do you think I'll have to reserve a space on the Greenford train? Most HST calls are at staffed platforms, in the same way that most (all?) Pendolino calls are at stagger platforms. VT manage it at stations served by several operators, including ones they don't manage..

 

[Caertroia]

when a wheelchair boards.

When a wheelchair user boards, please. There's a person on that wheelchair.

 

[[.n]]

Just to clarify for all on here it was 8 bikes on a single 153

I think I was on a different train to the one you're referring to. Mine was a 10 coach 444(?) . The train was rammed full of people using the £15 special. Guard handled it well without a major fuss and I think from looking at the platform that some of the bike passengers detrained.

 

[HLE]

I think I was on a different train to the one you're referring to. Mine was a 10 coach 444(?) . The train was rammed full of people using the £15 special. Guard handled it well without a major fuss and I think from looking at the platform that some of the bike passengers detrained.

Well how ironic ! Exactly the same happened this morning on a service up here....and we were four down before we left.

Ours ended differently. Not going to name the service because it won't be the last I hear of it, but the bikes got on and the guard wasn't best happy!

Let's just say .....common sense sometimes is the best approach to take. But 8 bikes is too much on a packed 153!

 

[mugam4]

Maybe an app where cycle spaces can be easily reserved, where there isn't sufficient capacity on a route to cover demand, is required?

With the South West Trains £15 deal, it's interesting to observe how things fall apart when 'true' demand is shown when fares are temporarily lowered to affordable levels. The allowed amount of cycles barely fit in the allowed space on a 444, let alone when it's full and standing.

An app would remove the delay caused by, on 10x444, being by one cycle door, finding it full, and having to go down the platform to the next cycle door (if the train has not moved off by this point on curved platforms such as Eastleigh 3).

Additionally, trains are regularly so crowded with people that escape routes become dangerous. If a train cannot move off with bikes out of the designated storage area, what about passengers out of their designated storage areas?

 

[HLE]

This seems a bit inflammatory. We're passengers too - let's suggest constructive solutions to this! An app where cycle spaces can be easily reserved, where there isn't sufficient capacity on a route to cover demand, perhaps?

With the South West Trains £15 deal, it's interesting to observe how things fall apart when 'true' demand is shown when fares are temporarily lowered to affordable levels. The allowed amount of cycles barely fit in the allowed space on a 444, let alone when it's full and standing. Maybe they should fit drawing pins to the yellow marker line at the edge of the cycle bay? Or perhaps solve it some other (constructive) way I guess..

An app would remove the delay caused by, on 10x444, being by one cycle door, finding it full, and having to go down the platform to the next cycle door (if the train has not moved off by this point on curved platforms such as Eastleigh 3).

Additionally, trains are regularly so crowded with people that escape routes become dangerous. If a train cannot move off with bikes out of the designated storage area, what about passengers out of their designated storage areas?

Passengers are left behind if trains are too crowded. Fact.

The point is trains aren't bike carriers, and bikes can take up valuable space. In today's case:

4 bikes in the bike rack. One sticking out into the aisle dead opposite the toilet. Not much room to get by - not much of an escape route in an accident. Doesn't take up any room though for passengers as such.

2 in the disabled seats - easily took up three standing and three seated spaces.

2 in the vestibules. About room for 6 people.

Potentially 12 people could have been left behind.

 

[BurtonM]

It annoys me how negatively perceived cyclists are in the eye of the typical rail passenger - I'm a regular passenger on TPE and people almost never move out of the cycle storage areas and their stupid tip up seats when I get on with my bike, heck I've been talking to people on the train about people taking up the cycle space when I can't get my bike to it (if they let me through it'd be easier for everyone getting on and off), and then they've gone and sat in the tip up seats when they become free! People leaning on my bike, walking into it to get past, small children messing with it and so on is also incredibly common and irritating.
Then there's the (ex-Central?) 150s where the signposted bike storage doesn't even fit a full size bike and you have no choice but to have it sticking out into the aisle/vestibule.
We just can't win.

 

[nottsnurse]

Most people who are genuinely enthusiastic about cycling subscribe to the adage that the best number of bicycles to own is N+1, where N is the current number owned.

Its only lack of storage space which has me sitting at seven bikes, I'm itching to get the +1.

To add, regarding this topic, when I lived down south and commuted by bike at either end of my train journey, I'd regularly take the wheels off (quick release wheel skewers) in order to take up less space and/or get around bike bans. A black bin bag chucked over the frame turns 'a bicycle' into 'some bike parts'. No different to folks travelling with outsided luggage. Indeed I once travelled with an ironing board as part of an organised protest, where we cyclists all took outsided 'non-cycle' items for a day to protest the TOCs stupidity at replacing stock with adequate cycle storage (slam door stock), with newer stock that ignored the needs of cycle commuters who'd be happily doing so for years.

 

[mugam4]

The point is trains aren't bike carriers, and bikes can take up valuable space.

Cycles are welcome on our trains - southwesttrains.co.uk

wat

In today's case:

4 bikes in the bike rack. One sticking out into the aisle dead opposite the toilet. Not much room to get by - not much of an escape route in an accident. Doesn't take up any room though for passengers as such.

2 in the disabled seats - easily took up three standing and three seated spaces.

2 in the vestibules. About room for 6 people.

Potentially 12 people could have been left behind.

I'm glad you agree! This really is a problem that needs solving, to stop passengers (including cyclists in that ) being inconvenienced. The current situation is less than ideal.

 

[Esmenfif]

Perhaps they could invent something like a "cycle van" for cycle-heavy routes during peak times?

 

[nottsnurse]

Perhaps they could invent something like a "cycle van" for cycle-heavy routes during peak times?

That is just crazy talk.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The context was GW introducing cycle reservations - presumably they're only doing this on the HST routes, or do you think I'll have to reserve a space on the Greenford train?

Only HSTs and 180s.

There is one fairly big problem with the new GWR bike guidelines but I won't make a fuss about it in public until I've had a chance to discuss it with them.

 

[notlob.divad]

Perhaps they could invent something like a "cycle van" for cycle-heavy routes during peak times?

As I stated above.

Maybe we should strip all the seats etc out of the 142s/anything else that cannot be made compliant and fill them with hanging bike racks/areas for large luggage/prams etc. They can attach on the end of existing formations and get dragged around like trailers.

---- Slowly walks towards the door ----

I'll see myself out.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

At the end of the day the NRCOC apply.

48. Cycles

Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train with the exception of a few routes.
However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. A
charge may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required. The Ticket
Seller must tell you about these restrictions and any charges if you ask when buying
your ticket.

49. Restrictions

Any Train Company may refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article, an animal or a
cycle, even though it meets the requirements set out in Condition 47 and 48 and Appendix
B, if, in the opinion of its staff:

(a) it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or it may cause damage to
property;

(b) there is not enough room for it;

(c) the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains; or

(d) it is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner.

So if the train crew (guard or train manager) say no, that's the end of it. They're ultimately responsible for the safety of the passengers and the general safe working of the train.

And it should be pointed out that if we don't and something goes wrong and someone gets hurt we're the ones who could end up in court on charges of negligence etc.

 

[al78]

Its only lack of storage space which has me sitting at seven bikes, I'm itching to get the +1.

/QUOTE]

Wow, that is more than twice as many as I have, one of mine is a folder which I tend to use on the rare occasion I need to go to London or are visiting family. I've not had a problem taking my non folding bike on the train in the SE, but I don't try and take it on a train at peak times. Only once have I had a problem, when I was on holiday in Scotland and I cycled from Inchnadamph to Ardgay station intending to get a train to Inverness. Unfortunately when the train arrived the bike space was completely full and there was no way I could get, next train was the next day, so had to cycle the rest of the way (managed to get there in plenty of time for the sleeper).

I can see the problems with space on trains, and bicycles are an awkward shape with sticky out bits that can protrude in the way of movement, but ultimately I don't see an easy solution to overcrowding on trains at all, unless people start choosing to live more local livestyles rather than choosing a job and a home 50+ miles apart which requires some form of motorised transport to get between the two, but I can't see that happening unless it is forced in some way.

 

[nottsnurse]

Wow, that is more than twice as many as I have...

I used to race Downhill and 4X so have a DH bike and two 4X bikes (one hardtail, one full-sus), I have a Dirt Jump bike (the first UK Flow Dialled Bikes ever sold), a Singlespeed XC bike, a Full-Sus XC bike and a Cyclocross bike, which gets used for commuting more, truth be told.

They are all essential, at least that is what I tell my wife.

 

[LowLevel]

We try and accomodate. Our lot say 2 bikes. On a class 156 on anything other than a Skegness holiday train when I need the space for luggage I'll take 6 or 7 as long as they're not too chunky. On a 153 probably 3 or else it blocks in the fire extinguisher. On our 158s, which have at least had the poxy ex phone booth walls removed, 3 normal or 4 road bikes top n tail. Any more and you get into the realms of not being able to open the outwards opening emergency cupboard which faces the bike area.

They don't block doorways, cab doors, toilets etc. I will not accommodate a cyclist to the detriment of other people's comfort.

And yes I have left cyclists (and giant push chair operatives) behind and shall continue to do so if I see fit.

It's not in my interest (or the train operator's really) to encourage loads of cyclists to turn up on spec. Extra revenue vs extra hassle is not a great ratio and indeed if a few were discouraged on the busier routes it'd be no bad thing.

 

[[.n]]

Whilst this is correct I understand this incident was at Bournemouth this morning and involved the 0655 Weymouth-Waterloo.

That's the one, I was just surprised as I take that train pretty much everyday, and never had the bike problem before. The one person I know who takes a bike on my train on aregular basis has a folding Brompton.

I suppose a London traveller could rely on the Santander bikes to finish their journey?

If memory serves me correctly there is a another London bound train a few minutes later from the other platform, so depending on the final destination that would have been an alternative.