Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Argosy]

Given that bi-modes are already in testing for use on UK mainlines, I don't think it's "too soon".

I think it would be prudent to see how they work out first. I believe Hitachi have a 3 and 4 car option. Seem to recall something in Rail last year about this. There certainly is an inter regional option which could be used on the WHML, HML and GSW routes.

 

[najaB]

I think it would be prudent to see how they work out first.

Given that we're talking about five to ten years hence, I think they'll have that opportunity to see what the performance is like 'in the wild'.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That kind of power level isn't far off what you can do with off-the-shelf technology.

I'm no electrical engineer (as you can tell!) but it sounds like it might not be quite as an expensive or extensive proposition as it would have been ten or even five years ago.

It's not just the physical ability to do it, it's all the testing and certification that has to go with it, to make sure there's no EM interference which upsets signalling, stray electrical currents which can damage the ETS alternator or existing inverter systems and so on.

 

[najaB]

It's not just the physical ability to do it, it's all the testing and certification that has to go with it, to make sure there's no EM interference which upsets signalling, stray electrical currents which can damage the ETS alternator or existing inverter systems and so on.

I doubt there'll be strong enough EM to upset the signalling, but your point is spot on about compatibility with existing on-train systems (as one would expect).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I doubt there'll be strong enough EM to upset the signalling, but your point is spot on about compatibility with existing on-train systems (as one would expect).

There's enough crap signalling equipment out there, you can get some unusual issues to occur. I'm looking forward to the Class 88s and finding out just how good the latest ABB equipment is.

 

[Altnabreac]

Was on the Maryhill line at the weekend on a diverted Queen St train so was having a nose at bridge clearances. I reckon maybe 3 bridges (out of 12) are going to need complete rebuilding and the A879 at Possilpark looks like it could be a big job.

On a more positive note though it seems to me that both the tunnels under the Forth and Clyde canal could be adapted without needing rebuilding. That's probably good for the business case as having to drain the canal completely like at Carmuirs is an expensive business.

 

[clc]

That sounds about right although I suspect the City Union Line won't be included.

I wonder if Kilmarnock might drop behind Dundee - Aberdeen? The political benefits of early wiring to the North East might be tempting.

Agree that Barassie - Killie will be done at same time as Barrhead - Killie.

That would be consistent with the SG's desire to electrify 100stk per annum following the completion of EGIP:

Dunblane to Perth – 100stk
Perth to Dundee – 70stk
Dundee to Aberdeen – 250stk

And with another 80stk of electrification to play with in CP6 you could still do East Kilbride, Barrhead and Anniesland via Maryhill.

A possible fly in the ointment is that politically it might be problematic if Glasgow was seen to be benefitting more than Edinburgh. A small reopening scheme in the east might help to balance things out.

 

[Altnabreac]

That would be consistent with the SG's desire to electrify 100stk per annum following the completion of EGIP:

Dunblane to Perth – 100stk
Perth to Dundee – 70stk
Dundee to Aberdeen – 250stk

And with another 80stk of electrification to play with in CP6 you could still do East Kilbride, Barrhead and Anniesland via Maryhill.

A possible fly in the ointment is that politically it might be problematic if Glasgow was seen to be benefitting more than Edinburgh. A small reopening scheme in the east might help to balance things out.

Given the (relative) SNP weakness in NE Scotland at the 2016 elections a big ticket Infrastructure scheme for Aberdeen would be just what the (spin)doctor ordered.

 

[SouthSub]

There's an overnight road closure underneath the Ratho viaduct tomorrow for bridge maintenance, so we might see some progress on the masts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Four new masts have gone up on the Ratho viaduct over the weekend.

 

[Altnabreac]

Network Rail Scotland on Twitter have pics of the new Greenhill Substation arriving on site.

Important stage in electrification completion. Presume it will serve all the new lines as far as Dunblane and Alloa so will be only one needed until wires eventually get north of Dunblane.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Network Rail Scotland on Twitter have pics of the new Greenhill Substation arriving on site.
Important stage in electrification completion. Presume it will serve all the new lines as far as Dunblane and Alloa so will be only one needed until wires eventually get north of Dunblane.

Where do you think that substation will logically be - Perth area?

 

[Altnabreac]

Where do you think that substation will logically be - Perth area?

Seems logical. Think there are 400 kv and 275kv lines just south west of Perth so that's the logical choice.

 

[Carntyne]

Can I ask a daft question?

Does the substation take in power and transform it to the correct voltage for use on the OLE, or is that another part of the chain?

 

[najaB]

Can I ask a daft question?

Does the substation take in power and transform it to the correct voltage for use on the OLE, or is that another part of the chain?

Not a daft question, and not a bad supposition. 132kV (or higher) down to 25kV.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Seems logical. Think there are 400 kv and 275kv lines just south west of Perth so that's the logical choice.

Hilton Junction.

 

[Class 170101]

Network Rail Scotland on Twitter have pics of the new Greenhill Substation arriving on site.

Important stage in electrification completion. Presume it will serve all the new lines as far as Dunblane and Alloa so will be only one needed until wires eventually get north of Dunblane.

So no separate feed north of the Central Belt then?

I am surprised by this as NR will almost certainly have to give up OLE possessions north of Larbet almost 90 minutes before a train runs in the worse cases.

 

[edwin_m]

So no separate feed north of the Central Belt then?

I am surprised by this as NR will almost certainly have to give up OLE possessions north of Larbet almost 90 minutes before a train runs in the worse cases.

Why as long as 90min? The running time from Greenhill to Dunblane or Alloa is a lot less than that and it doesn't seem noticeably further from a feeder than many other electrified places. And as pointed out in the last few posts any extension to Perth would add another feeder anyway.

 

[Class 170101]

Why as long as 90min? The running time from Greenhill to Dunblane or Alloa is a lot less than that and it doesn't seem noticeably further from a feeder than many other electrified places. And as pointed out in the last few posts any extension to Perth would add another feeder anyway.

You forget the preparation of time of the stabled trains at Stirling.

Whilst it might not be quite 90 minutes any isolation north of Larbet Jn would be need to be given up between 08:00 and 08:15 to allow preparation time. Based on 1st departure of 5N50 from Stirling at 08:48.

Note 2P82 is the 1st train at Larbet but doesn't get there until just after 09:10. It also assumes each driver prepares their own train as they book on rather than one (shed and ferry) driver preparing all the trains.

I thought a feed might have been provided from the Longannet area to enable Stirling to be double fed.

 

[clc]

Scottish Transport Minister puts the boot into Network Rail over 7 month delay to Glasgow-Edinburgh electrification:

http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/ministerial-statement-delivery-rail-projects-scotland

"Network Rail have fallen short of their previous standards, most recently exemplified by the Borders Railway, which was delivered on-time and on-budget. In the case of EGIP, there is evidence of poor management of contractors; and across the programme there are systemic issues including poor planning and cost estimation and a failure to properly incorporate well established regulations into their project plans".

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Scottish Transport Minister puts the boot into Network Rail over 7 month delay to Glasgow-Edinburgh electrification:

http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/ministerial-statement-delivery-rail-projects-scotland

I think everything has slipped in Scotland by the same amount of time - new Forth Bridge, Aberdeen bypass and of course EGIP.

Has there been some terrible weather or something that I've not heard about ?

 

[najaB]

I think everything has slipped in Scotland by the same amount of time - new Forth Bridge, Aberdeen bypass and of course EGIP.

Has there been some terrible weather or something that I've not heard about ?

Well the winter was very wet and windy.

 

[route:oxford]

Well the winter was very wet and windy.

Just like the summer so far.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So no separate feed north of the Central Belt then?

There would have to be wouldn't there?

The electricity is "different" South of Dunblane

https://www.ssepd.co.uk/MapOfScotland/

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So no separate feed north of the Central Belt then?

I think this is answered below - maybe I am wrong.

Where do you think that substation will logically be - Perth area?

Seems logical. Think there are 400 kv and 275kv lines just south west of Perth so that's the logical choice.

Hilton Junction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is what the ORR report said: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/22346/network-rail-monitor-scotland-2015-16-q3-4.pdf

Edinburgh Glasgow Improvements Programme
Some aspects of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (EGIP) are progressing to plan, including the new station at Edinburgh Gateway.
There are however significant challenges to the achievement of Key Output 1 obligation (introduction of the first electric services by December 2016 and the overall KO1 regulatory milestone of March 2017).
Amongst these is the need for Network Rail to demonstrate infrastructure compliance with relevant international engineering specifications and its obligations under the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.
This is an issue that has been common to a number of electrification projects across Great Britain in this Control Period.

This is all very vague, but it seems there is a 7-month slip to the electrification project.
The problems cited are similar to what we have been told about the GW project, and it seems now also to the NW project.
Given how recently Hendy dug up the plans and reset them it is very disappointing to be told of new slippages.
This won't help the planned cascade of Scotrail DMUs to Northern after electrification.

The NR version doesn't mention the slippage directly: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/scotlands-railway-enhancement-programme

"Very importantly, our teams have learnt valuable lessons from the circumstances, decisions and programme impacts over the last months.
The Edinburgh-Glasgow Improvement Programme is still progressing well and, as the ORR indicated today, the costs have risen due to extra compliance requirements, complicated interfaces with other projects and other unforeseen factors such as severe weather impacts.
“Despite this, I am pleased to confirm that we are committed to still deliver the overall railway enhancement programme for Scotland by March 2019, and within the agreed funding limits

 

[snowball]

I think everything has slipped in Scotland by the same amount of time - new Forth Bridge, Aberdeen bypass and of course EGIP.

Has there been some terrible weather or something that I've not heard about ?

Wind is the relevant factor on the Forth crossing. The estuary is of course notorious for high winds, and lifting is not possible above a certain windspeed. However they still expect to meet the contractual date, which is six months later than the previously expected completion date.

 

[clc]

The AWPR delay was due to a legal challenge.

 

[snowball]

The AWPR delay was due to a legal challenge.

That was a delay in starting construction - a long series of delays. Is there a more recent delay during construction that Philip was referring to?

 

[380101]

This is what the ORR report said: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/22346/network-rail-monitor-scotland-2015-16-q3-4.pdf


This is all very vague, but it seems there is a 7-month slip to the electrification project.
The problems cited are similar to what we have been told about the GW project, and it seems now also to the NW project.
Given how recently Hendy dug up the plans and reset them it is very disappointing to be told of new slippages.
This won't help the planned cascade of Scotrail DMUs to Northern after electrification.

The NR version doesn't mention the slippage directly: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/scotlands-railway-enhancement-programme

The cascade shouldn't be affected as the new EMUs aren't scheduled to start service until towards the end of 2017. the plan was a limited emu service using 4 380 units in multiple from December 2016.

 

[92002]

The cascade shouldn't be affected as the new EMUs aren't scheduled to start service until towards the end of 2017. the plan was a limited emu service using 4 380 units in multiple from December 2016.

Presumably the slippage on EGIP conveniently means there will be no need to train staff on the 380s and the new 385s will be gradually introduced on the Glasgow/Edinburgh route.

Last time I checked the works at Queen Street tunnel were ahead of schedule and all the other OHL were coming along nicely for a September handover.

 

[kkong]

I think everything has slipped in Scotland by the same amount of time - new Forth Bridge, Aberdeen bypass and of course EGIP.

The AWPR schedule has not slipped that I'm aware of?

If anything, it's ahead of the original schedule in that some junctions are due to open before the end of this year.

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/aberdeen-western-peripheral-route-balmedie-tipperty