Petition launched to demand re-opening of Dumfries-Stranraer railway line

[Sandy R]

The vote was very close and non-binding. I can see a future vote going the other way.
The local groups are vociferous, but don't have any real teeth. When the price of crude goes back up above $75/bbl local authorities will find it difficult to say no to the revenue flow into their stretched coffers. Just watch what happens to public opinion when the price of petrol heads up and beyond £1.50/l.
Could, but that requires construction of a fairly large railfreight terminal - making the whole scheme even more expensive.

Meanwhile, there is a rail-connected port in the northwest of England with extant ferry service to Belfast. Seeing as most of the goods actually come up from ports in England, it's quite a detour to get to Stranraer.

People say im obsessed with Borders line, yet Heysham keeps rearing its ugly head.
Yet again how long is the heysham -Belfast crossing ??

Take a look in Tesco. How many of their products are made in Scotland ? A fair percentage.
Even when Brent Crude was $90 odd per barrel , petrol was only £1.45 per litre -ish.
Inverness and Elderslie handle container trains with a couple of sidings, note Stranraer Town. ,

 

[ian959]

I meant in terms of domestic travel.

VWC/ VEC are capturing more and more of the modal share between rail/air Edin/Glas and London every year.

The trend is away from air to rail. And the Port road can feed into that.

So all those people flying from Stranraer to Dumfries now will use the train in the future to travel to connect into the main line services at presumably Carlisle? Sorry Sandy but your arguments are getting more and more blinded by enthusiasm and less and less by real hard cold facts.

What modal shift that may apply on a full electrified 125 mph main route between two major cities has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your proposed reopening of a long defunct railway between two modestly sized towns with a service using DMUs on at the very best a 1tph basis. Even moreso bearing in mind that one of those towns is now very much dying due to its raison d'etre pretty much having moved up the coast or otherwise died in a general shift of LCL traffic to trucks in the intervening years - something that will unlikely change anytime soon.

 

[najaB]

People say im obsessed with Borders line, yet Heysham keeps rearing its ugly head. Yet again how long is the heysham -Belfast crossing ??

Eight hours. But I don't really see the relevance as most rail to ferry freight isn't going to be that time-sensitive.

 

[380101]

People say im obsessed with Borders line, yet Heysham keeps rearing its ugly head.
Yet again how long is the heysham -Belfast crossing ??

Take a look in Tesco. How many of their products are made in Scotland ? A fair percentage.
Even when Brent Crude was $90 odd per barrel , petrol was only £1.45 per litre -ish.
Inverness and Elderslie handle container trains with a couple of sidings, note Stranraer Town. ,

I drive trains past Elderslie almost every day. There hasn't been a freight train there for over 2 years. Over half the yard is now used for storing new cars.

 

[najaB]

Take a look in Tesco. How many of their products are made in Scotland ? A fair percentage.

In their Scottish stores, yes. In Ireland, not so much.

 

[Sandy R]

Well, I spent twenty years as a train planner on the railway. (That's paid work; for a living; planning train services)

Including several years in the freight business.

So I've clearly nothing "informative/knowledgable" to contribute.



You're a very rude man Sandy R.

If you have such knowledge, you would have been better imparting it politely rather than having a go at me.
If you look at my posts to others, you will see they are mostly polite, other than when people have treated me as some kind of idiot who knows nothing. for instance some one saying the petition was set up by ' a bloke who had 10 pints the night before'.
I have no problem with being told stuff I don't know, if you look at a previous post you will see that,as long as it is constructive.
However that does not mean I have to blindly agree with everything said here.
Not one other person on this post has my local knowledge of the state of the current alignment, condition of embankments, viaducts,culverts etc, blockages on the line, local travel patterns etc etc etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So all those people flying from Stranraer to Dumfries now will use the train in the future to travel to connect into the main line services at presumably Carlisle? Sorry Sandy but your arguments are getting more and more blinded by enthusiasm and less and less by real hard cold facts.

What modal shift that may apply on a full electrified 125 mph main route between two major cities has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your proposed reopening of a long defunct railway between two modestly sized towns with a service using DMUs on at the very best a 1tph basis. Even moreso bearing in mind that one of those towns is now very much dying due to its raison d'etre pretty much having moved up the coast or otherwise died in a general shift of LCL traffic to trucks in the intervening years - something that will unlikely change anytime soon.

Stranraer is just about to get £6 million pumped into it by the Scottish government in regeneration money, so it wont be 'dying' for much longer.
I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth.
I didn't suggest ALL air passengers would shift to rail, but the availability of a journey to Carlisle in 2 hours approx. would encourage some to do so.

Erm, im not sure what airport in Stranraer you've just invented.

Nobody 'flies' from Stranraer to Dumfries.

 

[najaB]

Not one other person on this post has my local knowledge of the state of the current alignment, condition of embankments, viaducts,culverts etc, blockages on the line...

Have you done geotechnical surveys, core samples, etc.? If not then, with respect, your knowledge is worth very little. An embankment can look solid but be one heavy rainfall away from collapse, and vice versa.

 

[Sandy R]

Strikes me of a group of people without a clue who go down the pub & come up with what appears to be a great idea after 10 pints but amazingly still believe it's a runner the next day :roll:

See ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you done geotechnical surveys, core samples, etc.? If not then, with respect, your knowledge is worth very little. An embankment can look solid but be one heavy rainfall away from collapse, and vice versa.

No, of curse not, but neither has anyone commenting on this thread.
Even if they are an engineer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No, of curse not, but neither has anyone commenting on this thread.
Even if they are an engineer.

Im waiting on communication back from Cedric Martindale and David Spaven.

One has already had some discussion with me.

You may have heard of them.

If not, google them.
Au revoir.

 

[najaB]

No, of curse not, but neither has anyone commenting on this thread. Even if they are an engineer.

Agreed. The point I'm making is that you can't make any definitive statement about costs being lower due to extant structures until those surveys are done. They may be fine or they may require complete replacement.

Seeing as it's been fifty (plus) years without any maintenance and reportedly the route wasn't in tip-top condition before closure it's easy to see why many don't have the same level of confidence that you have on costs.

 

[Huntergreed]

I live in Dumfries, and I can see their being little benefit of re-introducing port road services. The local X75/500 bus service goes round all of the places that this new line would, and when I have taken this bus it usually isn't very busy, so a full 156 (or two) would have far too many empty seats. It would also seem to be very expensive to open just for freight services. Even for the lorries driving the freight wagons, it isn't too far of a drive to Carlisle Kingmoor, just about 2 hours. The only benefit is that it would mean the railway in Dumfries gets more interesting, and they would probably replace the car park on the platform at Dumfries with the 2 bay platforms.

 

[bangor-toad]

People say im obsessed with Borders line, yet Heysham keeps rearing its ugly head.
Yet again how long is the heysham -Belfast crossing ??
,

There are currently two options from Heysham; one to Belfast (on Stena Freight) and the other to Warrenpoint (Seatruck)
Both services take around 8 hours each way.


Crossing the Irish Sea is very competitive for freight. From the north there's Larne - Cairnryan, Belfast - Cairnryan, Belfast - Heysham, Belfast - Liverpool and Warrenpoint to Heysham. Then there are all the routes into Dublin.
In addition to these lorry / truck ferries there are also the small container vessels that turn up every few days.

All of these routes are viable for freight journey to England. Total transit time, ferry schedule, driver's hours and utilisation level all need to be taken into consideration.


If there is a thought to depend on capturing NI - England freight flows the competition *will* be with the Heysham crossing. The challenge you will have is that the current situation is actually highly efficient and with costs cut to a minimum.
Freight that isn't time critical can be left dockside for a day in Belfast, Warrenpoint or Heysham. Have a look at pictures of any of these places. They go across as unaccompanied freight as and when the ferry leaves.
Freight that is time critical, such as deliveries or perishables, often do take a Cairnryan service as there's a ferry every 4(ish) hours. In many cases the driver travels across too as it allows the truck to leave the ferry and go immediately onwards.

You will need to do a lot more work to model how the proposal would be able to compete in terms of cost and time. Stating that goods can be containerised isn't going to be enough - if this was viable then it'd already have been done and it is not the "magic bullet" to show that it's financially viable. If the shipment is urgent then there will be no appetite to tranship as that adds delay and you need to wait for a service. If the shipment is not time critical, when can't it use one of the existing services?

Sorry to be negative but the NI freight shipment market is both complex and very competitive.
Mr Toad

 

[najaB]

Sorry to be negative but the NI freight shipment market is both complex and very competitive.

Thanks for the view from Northern Ireland. Just to take up one point you raised:

Stating that goods can be containerised isn't going to be enough - if this was viable then it'd already have been done and it is not the "magic bullet" to show that it's financially viable.

Containerisation would improve the viability of Stranraer - Dumfries freight, but it would equally benefit the other ferry routes - none of which need £500M - £1B invested to connect them to the railway network.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Time to shut this one down maybe .....

 

[6Gman]

If you have such knowledge, you would have been better imparting it politely rather than having a go at me.

I wasn't "having a go". I was pointing out that you had not responded to my point that official figures show no container traffic through Cairnryan.

All traffic is on lorries/ trailers.

What makes you think that reopening the Port Road would lead to any significant amount of that traffic switching to rail?

Incidentally the same official figures show Holyhead handling 20% more traffic than Cairnryan. Holyhead has a (more) direct rail connection but little (if any) rail freight traffic. So if the freight haulers don't see rail as an option from Holyhead why would it work from Cairnryan?

 

[Mordac]

Certainly, glad to oblige. Perhaps you would like to look at the Port Hedland to Marble Bar Railway, that closed in 1951. Every so often, optimistic debates surface then subside about viability of reopening that line.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would argue it is a good well thought through case. ]

And you are not persuading those who post on a railway forum with that argument! We are on the whole pro-railway and yet it isn't working! How do you think that this argument will work when it's put in front of people who will be far far more skeptical of spending £500m plus of public money?

 

[47271]

Time to shut this one down maybe .....

Yes, I've had enough now too.

This morning I made a very positive suggestion around campaigning to build traffic on existing routes around Dumfries and Stranraer ahead, not instead of, waging the battle for end to end reinstatement, and to my surprise, the response was that asking for those incremental improvements was dismissed as being someone else's job.

To me this suggested someone who can't get the broader picture, and failing to understand that the passenger traffic to sustain the route would be dependent on the demonstrable success of the connections at either end.

As it stands, Dumfries station doesn't manage 400k passengers per year and Stranraer achieves around a tenth of that.

I made a comparison with a recently rejected thread on the rebuilding of the Strathmore route. Perth, with almost identical population in the mid 40k's is at the 'Dumfries' end of the route and in 14-15 handled near on 1.5m passengers. Montrose - and I know this may be an analogy too far - at the other end did over 400k in the same period.

Just not enough people, and not enough current demand, in the right places, sorry.

 

[och aye]

I didn't think this thread would become so explosive, when I posted it 4 days ago!

 

[Liam]

I live in Dumfries, and I can see their being little benefit of re-introducing port road services. The local X75/500 bus service goes round all of the places that this new line would, and when I have taken this bus it usually isn't very busy, so a full 156 (or two) would have far too many empty seats. It would also seem to be very expensive to open just for freight services. Even for the lorries driving the freight wagons, it isn't too far of a drive to Carlisle Kingmoor, just about 2 hours. The only benefit is that it would mean the railway in Dumfries gets more interesting, and they would probably replace the car park on the platform at Dumfries with the 2 bay platforms.

I live in Dumfries too and completely agree with you. The 246 up to Thornhill and Sanquhar is usually busier (i.e. standing room only) than the 500/1/2 in the CD direction. I'm very confident that a station at Thornhill would be very well used.

It's maybe worth noting in this discussion that SWEStrans have recently decreased funding for bus services. The current hospital and Crichton bus (number 5) has gone from 3 to 2 per hour.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I didn't think this thread would become so explosive, when I posted it 4 days ago!

Perhaps a viewing of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth aspirational reopening thread would give you some idea how certain proposed reopening threads on this website bring postings from those with a great insight gained by their actual involvement in the railway industry.

Your thread has certainly brought a good number of postings from those same forum members.

 

[ian959]

Stranraer is just about to get £6 million pumped into it by the Scottish government in regeneration money, so it wont be 'dying' for much longer.
I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth.
I didn't suggest ALL air passengers would shift to rail, but the availability of a journey to Carlisle in 2 hours approx. would encourage some to do so.

Erm, im not sure what airport in Stranraer you've just invented.

Nobody 'flies' from Stranraer to Dumfries.

Of course no one flies from Stranraer to Dumfries, that was the point I was making. Why bring a spurious item about Glasgow/London air traffic into the argument? How does the increase in air traffic on that route have ANY bearing whatsoever on train travel from Stranraer to Dumfries and on to Carlisle?

Seriously? You really think £6 million is going to "stop the rot" so to speak in Stranraer? You are even more naive than I thought... you would barely get anything out of £6 million pounds, maybe a few dozen jobs at best. Not exactly enough to turn around the fortunes of Stranraer which as far as I am aware has had a declining population for the past 20 years and 47% of the population are on social welfare of some description (see here).

You ARE now in my area of expertise and believe me, you would need a shed load more money than that to address the problems of Stranraer and the railway line is NOT an answer to them, no matter how much I might like to see the line reopened.

 

[najaB]

Of course no one flies from Stranraer to Dumfries, that was the point I was making. Why bring a spurious item about Glasgow/London air traffic into the argument?

The words 'clutching' and 'straws' comes to mind.

You ARE now in my area of expertise and believe me, you would need a shed load more money than that to address the problems of Stranraer and the railway line is NOT an answer to them, no matter how much I might like to see the line reopened.

As a related 'blue sky' question - what do you think the impact would be of significant investment on the existing railway to Ayr (loops, electrification, resignalling, etc.) to allow an all day, clockface service to Glasgow?

 

[DarloRich]

a complete and utter waste of precious public money that could be spent elsewhere for a greater return. Sorry; I am out.

 

[JohnB57]

a complete and utter waste of precious public money that could be spent elsewhere for a greater return. Sorry; I am out.

You are, of course, correct.

However, isn't it refreshing to have a debate with someone who, however futile we feel his campaign may be, has at least the ability to put his case in an articulate fashion? I think many non rail folks, like me (and Sandy?) will have learnt a lot and we can excuse the occasional frustrated outburst.

The notable thing for me is that the vast majority of Facebook contributors seem to have no concept at all of the complexities, real costs and time-scales involved in a project like this. I would imagine the same applies to many - or most - of the signatories and I wonder how much support the campaign would have attracted had it been made clear that the earliest possible reopening would be at least fifteen to twenty years in the future, adding another ten years to that for a more practical estimate.

 

[BigCj34]

It really sounds like a catch 22 situation for Stranraer. The town is on a road to nowhere that's lost its port, if nothing is done then the line will continue to decline, but the public would object to spending money trying to revitalise a line.

To be frank, 45,000 users is quite frankly pathetic for a town if its size. Millom in Cumbria has 0.213 million annual users and the town is half the size off Stranraer, although that is one of the most frequented stations per capita in Britain.

Unless an Irish Sea rail crossing emerges, the business case for opening the line to Dumfries is pitiful, and wouldn't be much better if it linked from Cairnryan. Usage of Stranraer only fell by 7000 following the port closure. What Stranraer probably needs is a rail station actually in the town centre if people are to use it, which has been proposed. A line link to Cairnryan may boost passenger numbers on the line but it's unlikely to justify the spending for a few miles of spur track (the Troon link shut for a reason).

 

[70014IronDuke]

For the staggering sum/effort required to reopen Dumfries-Stranraer, you could probably raise the line speed of the G&SW to 90 mph throughout, re-double the single line section to the north, re-open a station or two (Cumnock?) and still have change to dual track sections of the Highland main line.
And the good burghers of Newton Stewart and its environs would be probably better served (if indirectly) by a clock-face hourly service Glasgow-Kilmarnock-Carlisle running fast between Dumfries and Carlisle, supplemented by an hour Dumfries - Carlisle shuttle doing the stops in between.
Plus of course, providing a decent Sunday service on the line - as others have noted up thread, the current offering is shameful.

 

[DarloRich]

You are, of course, correct.

However, isn't it refreshing to have a debate with someone who, however futile we feel his campaign may be, has at least the ability to put his case in an articulate fashion? I think many non rail folks, like me (and Sandy?) will have learnt a lot and we can excuse the occasional frustrated outburst.

The notable thing for me is that the vast majority of Facebook contributors seem to have no concept at all of the complexities, real costs and time-scales involved in a project like this. I would imagine the same applies to many - or most - of the signatories and I wonder how much support the campaign would have attracted had it been made clear that the earliest possible reopening would be at least fifteen to twenty years in the future, adding another ten years to that for a more practical estimate.

The argument is articulate - the finances are not!

 

[QueensCurve]

If I were looking for rail investment priorities for D&G, I'd focus on:

1. Beattock station, way overdue
2. Thornhill station
3. Ensuring the Nithsdale route gets electrified and Dumfries receives a fast service from Glasgow
4. A Stranraer-Cairnryan connection coupled with Girvan-Stranraer improvements

Perhaps with speed improvements on the relevant routes, and an Ayr-facing chord at Newton on Ayr, a service via Mauchline Jct could wash its face?

 

[Sandy R]

Agreed. The point I'm making is that you can't make any definitive statement about costs being lower due to extant structures until those surveys are done. They may be fine or they may require complete replacement.

Seeing as it's been fifty (plus) years without any maintenance and reportedly the route wasn't in tip-top condition before closure it's easy to see why many don't have the same level of confidence that you have on costs.

For at least the second time , I DID NOT say it was cheaper because of extant structures. I said it was cheaper because there is no City Bypass, less dynamic loops etc etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I live in Dumfries, and I can see their being little benefit of re-introducing port road services. The local X75/500 bus service goes round all of the places that this new line would, and when I have taken this bus it usually isn't very busy, so a full 156 (or two) would have far too many empty seats. It would also seem to be very expensive to open just for freight services. Even for the lorries driving the freight wagons, it isn't too far of a drive to Carlisle Kingmoor, just about 2 hours. The only benefit is that it would mean the railway in Dumfries gets more interesting, and they would probably replace the car park on the platform at Dumfries with the 2 bay platforms.

The 500 takes 2 hours 20-30 minutes to cover less than 75 miles. That's exactly why there are empty seats on it. A rail service taking at least an hour less would be far more popular.
And those living in Galloway, 56,000 of them would obviously be keener to see it reintroduced than someone living in Dumfries town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are currently two options from Heysham; one to Belfast (on Stena Freight) and the other to Warrenpoint (Seatruck)
Both services take around 8 hours each way.


Crossing the Irish Sea is very competitive for freight. From the north there's Larne - Cairnryan, Belfast - Cairnryan, Belfast - Heysham, Belfast - Liverpool and Warrenpoint to Heysham. Then there are all the routes into Dublin.
In addition to these lorry / truck ferries there are also the small container vessels that turn up every few days.

All of these routes are viable for freight journey to England. Total transit time, ferry schedule, driver's hours and utilisation level all need to be taken into consideration.


If there is a thought to depend on capturing NI - England freight flows the competition *will* be with the Heysham crossing. The challenge you will have is that the current situation is actually highly efficient and with costs cut to a minimum.
Freight that isn't time critical can be left dockside for a day in Belfast, Warrenpoint or Heysham. Have a look at pictures of any of these places. They go across as unaccompanied freight as and when the ferry leaves.
Freight that is time critical, such as deliveries or perishables, often do take a Cairnryan service as there's a ferry every 4(ish) hours. In many cases the driver travels across too as it allows the truck to leave the ferry and go immediately onwards.

You will need to do a lot more work to model how the proposal would be able to compete in terms of cost and time. Stating that goods can be containerised isn't going to be enough - if this was viable then it'd already have been done and it is not the "magic bullet" to show that it's financially viable. If the shipment is urgent then there will be no appetite to tranship as that adds delay and you need to wait for a service. If the shipment is not time critical, when can't it use one of the existing services?

Sorry to be negative but the NI freight shipment market is both complex and very competitive.
Mr Toad

No market for Scotland /NE England to Ireland flows ? Especially now that Troon-Larne has stopped ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wasn't "having a go". I was pointing out that you had not responded to my point that official figures show no container traffic through Cairnryan.

All traffic is on lorries/ trailers.

What makes you think that reopening the Port Road would lead to any significant amount of that traffic switching to rail?

Incidentally the same official figures show Holyhead handling 20% more traffic than Cairnryan. Holyhead has a (more) direct rail connection but little (if any) rail freight traffic. So if the freight haulers don't see rail as an option from Holyhead why would it work from Cairnryan?

I don't know why there is nothing at Holyhead. Perhaps because the distances are too short for rail to be viable, even if that is not always the case.
I'll say again, their is POTENTIAL for freight, not a guarantee.
Again I mention the BSW sawmill and possible timber extraction along the line as well (Im aware there's no timber lifted by rail in Scotland at present, but there has been in the past)

 

[RichmondCommu]

But all I'm Getting on here is complete negativity. Not one bit of support.

I'm curious to know why you feel it's so important that people on this forum agree with your ideas? If you decide to promote an idea on this forum then surely you should expect that it will be debated?

Does it really matter to you if nobody appears to agree with your ideas?