AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Some lovely Islamophobia in this thread. :roll:
Some lovely Islamophobia in this thread. :roll:
I'm guessing it's due to me bringing up that Sky News report of the knife attack on the tube that happened last December?
It's really quite tedious. Some Muslims are awful people, some Christians are, some atheists are. Most, on the other hand, are not.
The question is not really about whether Muslims are awful people, it's more about whether the verses in the Qur'an that promote violence, homophobia, misogyny etc should be exempt from criticism.
Who says they don't have any perspective?
Usually =/= always.
Susceptible to cues =/= completely powerless to adopt different cultural practices/ leave s religion.
None of them believe that the Qur'an is the word of God? Or none of them believe that God is perfect?
Sadly, I don't think that these atheist Muslims you hang about with are representative of most of the Muslim world.
It's okay for Islam to be violent, hateful etc etc because the Bible is violent, hateful etc etc?
Ever heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right"?
If people made arguments like weak where I'm from you'd get laughed out the room... You still haven't engaged with what I've said - hell, I'm not sure you even realise that the issue is your assumptions, and not the conclusions you come to because of those assumptions. The response to someone making that argument is not to keep making them and insisting your conclusions are correct.
How many Muslims do you know personally?
Ok, no assumptions, just some questions.
Do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God?
Do Muslims believe that God is perfect?
Do Muslims believe that the Prophet Mohammed made a mistake when writing down some (or all) verses of the Qur'an?
Oh, and btdubs, I've lived in Leicester for over a decade and know a shedload of Muslims.
Ok, no assumptions, just some questions.
Do Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of God?
Do Muslims believe that God is perfect?
Do Muslims believe that the Prophet Mohammed made a mistake when writing down some (or all) verses of the Qur'an?
Oh, and btdubs, I've lived in Leicester for over a decade and know a shedload of Muslims.
Do you realise that believing the word of god is perfect does not translate to literal interpretations? Or do you that if I say "you let the cat out of the bag" I think that you literally let a cat out of a bag?
I really don't see how this is a hard concept to understand if you're not trying to do you hardest to paint Muslims in an incredibly unfavourable light.
The very fact you think you can drop your assumptions is exactly why you're not engaging with them: all argument have to have premises; you just might not be aware of them.
It sounds like you're saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality? Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning?
Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).
Yes, and that's as useful an argument as saying that some Christians do: i.e. not at all. If you want to justify Islamophobia you're going to have to make a better case than that.
We should try to get rid of Christianity too.
Your previous post sounded like you were saying that Muslims should not let the Qur'an guide their morality. Rather they should first decide if a given verse is moral, and if it is not they should perform whatever mental gymnastics are required to convince themselves that verse actually says the opposite of it's literal meaning.
Is that what you were saying or have I misunderstood?
The point is not about #edgy atheism. The issue is the unwarranted focus on one particular religion.
And if you think that metaphors or nuanced interpretation are "mental gymnastics" I really do despair. Please stop with the misinterpretations, because it's doing you no favours.
Perhaps I would understand better if you gave me a practical example? Let's return to Qur'an 4:34
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Now clearly you believe that verse is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message. But what if some moron were to read that and think "that sounds a bit sexist to me"? How would you explain to that idiot that they are wrong?
And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?
It's very obvious you have a strong agenda that isn't actually grounded in real experience with Muslims. Why do you focus on them so strongly, when the Bible is equally heavy in such messages? This isn't "two wrongs make a right", but getting at the very obvious double-standard you practice, if not preach.
Bigotry is often subtle, and whilst your sophistry may fly in online echo chambers, it doesn't fly with me.
You still haven't explained how exactly Qur'an 4:34 is a metaphor for women's equality which spreads an empowering feminist message.
And you haven't answered the question of whether morality should come from the Qur'an, or if the Qur'an should be "interpreted" in such a way as to confirm pre-existing morals?
You still keep spectacularly failing to miss the point. It doesn't matter what the literal meaning of the verse is if the vast majority of Muslims do not incorporate it into their daily life.
Why do you have such a basic understanding of Islam, yet such strong opinions?
Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).
You would be surprised and disappointed at how shabbily women are treated in most Muslim countries. I can understand your desire to sweep the problem under the rug, though, it is hella depressing and there's not much we can do about it.
I'm still a bit confused by what you're saying. You seemed to be saying that the way of dealing with problematic verses is to "interpret" them as having the opposite meaning to their literal interpretation. Now you're seemingly saying the way of dealing with problematic verses is to ignore them, and just hope that everyone else does too?
Should we encourage Christians to do the same thing?
The issue is your focus on Islam, and solely Islam, over these issues.
But I am curious as to what role the Qur'an plays in Islam. I thought that the Qur'an was considered an integral part of the religion. Are you saying that it isn't?
So the Qur'an is simultaneously an integral part of the religion of Islam and not an integral part of the religion of Islam? It's Schrödinger's cat in book form?
How does that work, then?
I'm staggered how, instead of questioning your own simplistic assumptions, you batten down the hatches and assume I'm claiming two statements which are direct inverses.
As a Muslimah myself, you're having a bloody laugh. We have the right to practice our religion, which states we must obey the law of the countries we live in - including non-Muslim countries. This includes domestic abuse and allowing women to vote. State-sponsored conversion to atheism will not go down well.Unfortunately, some people do take the Qur'an literally. That's one of the many reasons why it's important to try to encourage Muslims to abandon their faith (and to support and protect them once they do).
As a Muslimah myself, you're having a bloody laugh. We have the right to practice our religion, which states we must obey the law of the countries we live in - including non-Muslim countries. This includes domestic abuse and allowing women to vote. State-sponsored conversion to atheism will not go down well.
Why are you singling out Islam though?
Like everything else, Islam changes with cultures.