GWR Class 800

[ainsworth74]

Hmmm so Hitachi are filling up the Italian plant they acquired.

Which is, of course, because Newton Aycliffe is full of orders itself

So what happens post mid 2020's to Newton Aycliffe?

Who knows! Even if it does shut (which would be a shame) it'll have given ten years or so good employment to an area which desperately needs it. However I'm hoping that Hitachi will continue to win orders both her and elsewhere to enable them to keep the plant going. But nothing in life is certain.

 

[Clarence Yard]

5 car I am assuming?

Nine car AT300 sets.

 

[swt_passenger]

And what's the situation going to be on the 2 x 5 car services with regards to staffing and catering.

Is that a general IEP question, because AFAICS we don't know if this mornings order is 5 or 9 car yet (which missed the post by Clarence Yard above)...

 

[QueensCurve]

Review of the 800 in Modern Rail which describes them as roomier than an HST with the same bright and airy feel as the 395.

That "same bright and airy feel" I would describe as "cold and spartan".

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Which is, of course, because Newton Aycliffe is full of orders itself



Who knows! Even if it does shut (which would be a shame) it'll have given ten years or so good employment to an area which desperately needs it. However I'm hoping that Hitachi will continue to win orders both her and elsewhere to enable them to keep the plant going. But nothing in life is certain.

The Rail Delivery Group's Rolling Stock strategy document suggests there's not much chance of that. They estimated earlier this year that 13,000 to 20,000 new electric vehicles and around 1,900 new diesel vehicles will be needed over the next 30 years to replace life expired stock and to provide additional capacity.

That's lowest forecast is equivalent to 1 Hitachi 9 car AT300 unit every week until 2045 and the higher forecast is equivalent to 4 Bombardier 4 car Class 387 units every week.

 

[irish_rail]

Are these new 9 cars all for the Oxford route??!! Hope we get some additional decent length trains down to the south west and a few less 5 cars? Guess its up to the planners, but for my mind 2 x 5 car sets or single 5 car sets off peak makes a lot more sense on Pad - Ox, and put more 9 car sets on Padd- Penz due to the increasing staffing / restaurant etc on these services....

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are these new 9 cars all for the Oxford route??!! Hope we get some additional decent length trains down to the south west and a few less 5 cars? Guess its up to the planners, but for my mind 2 x 5 car sets or single 5 car sets off peak makes a lot more sense on Pad - Ox, and put more 9 car sets on Padd- Penz due to the increasing staffing / restaurant etc on these services....

Yet many would argue that economically it makes more sense to run 10 cars to Plymouth and 5 cars to penzance.

 

[Dave1987]

The Rail Delivery Group's Rolling Stock strategy document suggests there's not much chance of that. They estimated earlier this year that 13,000 to 20,000 new electric vehicles and around 1,900 new diesel vehicles will be needed over the next 30 years to replace life expired stock and to provide additional capacity.

That's lowest forecast is equivalent to 1 Hitachi 9 car AT300 unit every week until 2045 and the higher forecast is equivalent to 4 Bombardier 4 car Class 387 units every week.

Philip why did Hitachi make a big fan fare about Newton Aycliffe stating that it would be their hub for their European expansion to then go and buy a big plant in Italy? Surely that must be seen as a big two fingered up yours to NA? Every order that Hitachi gets in the next 5 years or so will go to the Italian plant instead of NA.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Philip why did Hitachi make a big fan fare about Newton Aycliffe stating that it would be their hub for their European expansion to then go and buy a big plant in Italy? Surely that must be seen as a big two fingered up yours to NA? Every order that Hitachi gets in the next 5 years or so will go to the Italian plant instead of NA.

The plant came as part of the AnsaldoBreda sale, and it was bought for their signalling business, the rolling stock subsidiary was an 'added extra' which Hitachi could have managed without.

The GWR contract was going to Japan and not Pistoia originally, it only moved after Hitachi took over the entire AB business, did audits of the plant and worked out they could move the contract there.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes Ansaldo STS was a big prize and the Italian government cleverley bundled it with the lemon of the rolling stock business to ensure its survival.

They paid €760m Euro for 40% of Ansaldo STS and just €30m fo the whole of AnsaldoBreda.

 

[jimm]

That "same bright and airy feel" I would describe as "cold and spartan".

Modern Railways was talking about the interiors on the Class 800 sets - specified by the Department for Transport.

GWR will be able to specify the interiors on the AT300s itself, having ordered them itself via Eversholt Leasing, thus freed from DfT's expertise in such matters...

Are these new 9 cars all for the Oxford route??!! Hope we get some additional decent length trains down to the south west and a few less 5 cars? Guess its up to the planners, but for my mind 2 x 5 car sets or single 5 car sets off peak makes a lot more sense on Pad - Ox, and put more 9 car sets on Padd- Penz due to the increasing staffing / restaurant etc on these services....

Various reports in the rail press have indicated that they are intended for Oxford/Cotswold use, which was the case with two or three of the sets in the initial AT300 order anyway. And perhaps a Newbury peak job or two. The all-387 Thames Valley emu fleet is smaller than the previous proposed 387/365 mix anyway and with the delay to Oxford wiring, more bi-mode capacity is not going to hurt, however it is used.

Most of the Oxford peak services come from the Cotswold Line in the morning and continue that way in the evening and they are busy arriving at and leaving Oxford, so long trains are needed.

The positions of a number of starting signals at station platform ends on the Cotswold Line mean that it will not be possible to use 2x5 formations by stopping part of each set on platforms - at least until such time in the future as new signals appear - so that means nine-car sets are a necessity. There are also a few lumpy bits in the Cotswolds and Malverns where having full power all the time will not hurt.

We've been over the question of West Country portion working rather a lot already not that long ago. Do you not think GWR might just be planning to diagram nine-car sets on Pullman duties anyway?

 

[MatthewRead]

Modern Railways was talking about the interiors on the Class 800 sets - specified by the Department for Transport.

GWR will be able to specify the interiors on the AT300s itself, having ordered them itself via Eversholt Leasing, thus freed from DfT's expertise in such matters...



Various reports in the rail press have indicated that they are intended for Oxford/Cotswold use, which was the case with two or three of the sets in the initial AT300 order anyway. And perhaps a Newbury peak job or two. The all-387 Thames Valley emu fleet is smaller than the previous proposed 387/365 mix anyway and with the delay to Oxford wiring, more bi-mode capacity is not going to hurt, however it is used.

Most of the Oxford peak services come from the Cotswold Line in the morning and continue that way in the evening and they are busy arriving at and leaving Oxford, so long trains are needed.

The positions of a number of starting signals at station platform ends on the Cotswold Line mean that it will not be possible to use 2x5 formations by stopping part of each set on platforms - at least until such time in the future as new signals appear - so that means nine-car sets are a necessity. There are also a few lumpy bits in the Cotswolds and Malverns where having full power all the time will not hurt.

We've been over the question of West Country portion working rather a lot already not that long ago. Do you not think GWR might just be planning to diagram nine-car sets on Pullman duties anyway?

It's a shame GWR won't use 365s or other types besides the 387s

 

[N228PF]

Pedantry, but they're AT300s and not IEPs.

I still can't make out the difference between the two. It's all the same train to me

 

[Domh245]

I still can't make out the difference between the two. It's all the same train to me

It's mostly to do with who ordered them, and there is also a difference in the amount of power available from the diesel engines. Cosmetically, no different

 

[swt_passenger]

It's a shame GWR won't use 365s or other types besides the 387s

A shame for who? Far better for diagramming, maintenance and crewing to have more 387s than split between 2 smaller EMU fleets.

 

[MatthewRead]

A shame for who? Far better for diagramming, maintenance and crewing to have more 387s than split between 2 smaller EMU fleets.

But we want more of a variety of rolling stock to see

 

[43074]

But we want more of a variety of rolling stock to see

... but the operational needs of the railway come well before the wants of a few enthusiasts, it's much more economic for GWR to operate a single, larger fleet of 387s than a variety of fleets doing more or less doing the same job.

 

[D365]

But we want more of a variety of rolling stock to see

Come to Hornsey depot then

... it's much more economic for GWR to operate a single, larger fleet of 387s than a variety of fleets doing more or less doing the same job.

If that's the case then I'm surprised that GN is hanging on to any 365s, rather than getting hold of a few more 387s.

 

[coppercapped]

But we want more of a variety of rolling stock to see

I don't know if you are being serious or not, but the 365s have a top speed of 100mph. On a line where the suburban trains have to interwork with an intensive service of 125mph HSTs and Class 800s even the 110mph of the 387s is a constraint which could well be done without.

 

[43074]

If that's the case then I'm surprised that GN is hanging on to any 365s, rather than getting hold of a few more 387s.

True, but I suppose GWR are starting with a ''blank canvas'' where it comes to it's electric suburban fleet, so there's a saving on training costs etc with only having a single fleet from the outset.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That "same bright and airy feel" I would describe as "cold and spartan".

Swapping the seat covers for a deeper, warmer colour would fix that cheaply.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[RobShipway]

Come to Hornsey depot then




If that's the case then I'm surprised that GN is hanging on to any 365s, rather than getting hold of a few more 387s.

I would follow on from 43074 comments and say that GN have experience in using the class 365's whereas GWR do not and as 43074 states, it is easier to learn one type of EMU train than two.

Also, remember that it is possible that the drivers of the class 387's will also have to be learning the class 800/801 trains as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

Potentially more work for Newton Aycliffe, Bombardier and Hitachi have announced a joint bid for the New Tube for London contract with work split between Derby and Newton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Inside Newton, the first UK built one might be ready September.

 

[trainmania100]

Hi apologies but I haven't been following this thread
Are any in service yet? Or will any be on test next week, thanks

 

[RobShipway]

Hi apologies but I haven't been following this thread
Are any in service yet? Or will any be on test next week, thanks

The class 800's are not due to enter service until next year. So between now and then, they are doing testing work on the trains that are available for use.

 

[Hadders]

I don't know if you are being serious or not, but the 365s have a top speed of 100mph. On a line where the suburban trains have to interwork with an intensive service of 125mph HSTs and Class 800s even the 110mph of the 387s is a constraint which could well be done without.

I suspect this isn'tquite so much of an issue as people think. I don't think the ECML becomes 125mph until Wolmer Green, just north of the Welwyn tunnels and many of the services are on the slows after that.

 

[swt_passenger]

But we want more of a variety of rolling stock to see

Speak for yourself. I want an efficient and economically run railway. Moving stock around into larger common fleets is a useful move towards that.

 

[AM9]

I suspect this isn'tquite so much of an issue as people think. I don't think the ECML becomes 125mph until Wolmer Green, just north of the Welwyn tunnels and many of the services are on the slows after that.

Similarly, the 387s have been able to nip in and out of MML HST and Meridian services OK. The erosion of headways is more dependent on acceleration than absolute maximum speed.

 

[asylumxl]

Similarly, the 387s have been able to nip in and out of MML HST and Meridian services OK. The erosion of headways is more dependent on acceleration than absolute maximum speed.

I'd say if anything the MML is more of a challenge for the 387s. The Meridians accelerate significantly faster than the majority of intercity stock out of KGX and the line speed ramps up far quicker.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'd say if anything the MML is more of a challenge for the 387s. The Meridians accelerate significantly faster than the majority of intercity stock out of KGX and the line speed ramps up far quicker.

That should hopefully give them good practise for getting out of the way of the IEPs then!