Perfect CrossCountry train

[sprinterguy]

Seven or eight carriages, with a class 68 at one end (I've revised my preferences which previously included a class 67 instead) and including a seated driving trailer at the other. Formed something like DTFO - TRSB - TSO x 5/6 - 68, with a proper buffet with a proper draught ale tap serving Pedigree (Marston's being local to the Crosscountry route, many other breweries available en route!).

Closer to reality, a set of 7 carriage Hitachi bi-mode class 802s on at least the Scotland - South West services would be nice.
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So trains currently 9/10car would be better for passengers if they were 7car?

I'm not aware of any Crosscountry services that are currently that long: Those few services that are doubled up tend to use pairs of 4-car Voyagers, maximum 8 carriages.
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If they had a mix of seven and four car sets then it should be possible (SDO may be required). Two seven car sets, even with SDO, would be challenging.

I've contended before that the Crosscountry inter-city network would be adequately served by a mix of 5 and 7 carriage sets for the most part.

There's some stations served by Crosscountry where ten carriages is the top limit, trains any longer could prove problematic.
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Ideal CrossCountry train is a Dash-8 Q400 operated by Flybe.

On some journeys, such as Birmingham or Manchester to Aberdeen, I certainly find that to be the case! For middle distance journeys such as Birmingham - York or Manchester - Bristol, I'll stick with the train, though.
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I think it's gotta be the Hitachis for ease of maintenance fitting in with the GWR and VTEC depots would cut down on having to build new depots. Not sure whether to go 5/6 cars with enough for double sets through the core or 9/10 cars both have their merits

Seven or perhaps eight carriages, ideally. No-one needs to relearn the lessons learnt by the introduction of inflexible, short trains like the Voyagers in the face of ever increasing passenger demand, but I would be surprised if the Crosscountry franchise could validate the introduction of trains any longer without the London-centric commuter demand that other Intercity operators experience.

 

[Harbornite]

Ideal CrossCountry train is a Dash-8 Q400 operated by Flybe.

Get out!







(White or purple, by the way?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideal CrossCountry train is a Dash-8 Q400 operated by Flybe.

If they bother. They aren't called Flymaybe for nothing. Interesting and pleasant aircraft, but an unpunctual, unreliable, slapdash operation in the extreme.
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So trains currently 9/10car would be better for passengers if they were 7car?

XC operate very few 9 or 10-car services. With a 7-car fleet they could instead operate additional trains where necessary. And don't forget the Voyager interior wastes so much space that a 7-car 800 would probably seat more than at least an 8-car Voyager.

 

[sprinterguy]

If they bother. They aren't called Flymaybe for nothing. Interesting and pleasant aircraft, but an unpunctual, unreliable, slapdash operation in the extreme.

Never had any grief with them personally, on flights domestic and international, and they're the airline that I fly with most regularly: I'd rate them higher than anyone else that I've flown with, in fact.

 

[Clip]

That's the branding sorted out then...

Oh yeah the livery must simply stay the same

 

[route:oxford]

Ideal CrossCountry train is a Dash-8 Q400 operated by Flybe.

That's just a Pacer with seatbelts, wings and turboprops.

Give me one of their Embraer 175s or 195s anyday.
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Never had any grief with them personally, on flights domestic and international, and they're the airline that I fly with most regularly: I'd rate them higher than anyone else that I've flown with, in fact.

I wouldn't rate them higher than anyone else, but they are indeed perfectly functional.

It's very handy to be able to combine one-way Flybe fares between BHX and EDI/GLA with one-way rail fares between BHI and EDB/GLA.

 

[tbtc]

Hitachi bi modes that can be easily reformed in the maintenance facility as traffic dictates.

A Class 800, no contest. Nothing better for the job!

This, this, a thousand times this...

Nine/ten coaches in the "core" (Manchester/ York to Bristol/ Reading).

Capable of doubled up services continuing to the fringes at times (e.g. school holidays to Cornwall) but otherwise 5x26m trains would generally be fine.

Can easily be swapped/ extended because the main GWML and ECML operators will have equivalent trains at Bristol/ Edinburgh/ Plymouth etc.

Part of a busy production line that could mean extra trains being built/ acquired five/ten years later (rather than Voyagers).

We don't need to design something "custom" for one particular franchise that can't easily be transferred away or increased in a few years time (see Gatwick Express 460s, TPE 185s...).

The only criticism I'd have of 80Xs for XC would be that the high churn of passengers at intermediate stations means that "commuter" doors would speed up dwell times but I'm not trying to design unique perfect stock specifically for one TOC - we've made those mistakes before.

 

[Haydn1971]

So trains currently 9/10car would be better for passengers if they were 7car?

There are just three services a day that run doubled up.

 

[RichmondCommu]

My preference would be a bi-mode that can operate with existing Voyagers / Meridians in order to improve capacity where possible.
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Don't worry. As of October, I'll be slightly busier and my post per day ratio should go down!

In others words you'll be off to Uni.

 

[Harbornite]

My preference would be a bi-mode that can operate with existing Voyagers / Meridians in order to improve capacity where possible.
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In others words you'll be off to Uni.

Nein scheiße, Sherlock.

As for your point about the Voyagers and Meridians, keeping them alongside new stock might make sense and it could be possible because the voyagers and at300s both have dellner couplers, although what could happen is that the super voyagers could all end up with one operator but this all depends on who orders bi mode stock.

The other scenario is that xc completely replaces all of its voyager and super voyager stock in favour of new build. I'm not sure who would need the cascaded voyagers the most by then, if that happens.

 

[The Ham]

It rather depends on the route.

HSTs are hopeless for services which have frequent stops, which many of the XC services do.

They are relatively slow to accelerate and the boarding time is chronically slow, add in from a mechanical point of view their reliability suffers with regular stop/start workings. It's part of the reason why the Midland Mainline uses Meridians (which let's be honest are essentially Voyagers) on its stopping services.

In many respects 2+2 seat Desiros would make pretty good XC units where they are run under the wires. Capable of 110mph, flexible enough to be run in 4, 8 or 12 car formation. Quiet from a passenger perspective and nice riding.

Until the electrification fell behind my thoughts were ditch the 22x's from the Manchester to Bournemouth services and replace with 444 esk trains (duel voltage), using the spare 22x's to strengthen other services once electrification allowed.

Now my thoughts are more varied, they include:
- new bimodals, either a mix of 5 and 9 coaches, but with enough to allow a significant number of services over the core to be run as 5+5 or as 7 coach units with an option for more to allow for the creation of 9 coach units (by extending the 7 coach unit) and/or (extra) 5 coach units
- 185's (cleared for 110mph running) running in pairs (338 seats being 30/308) on the Manchester Bristol (and extensions) services freeing up 22x's for strengthen/replacing HST's (or at the least allowing the HST's to be 5+2 to allow them to get up to speed faster and reduce the costs involved in allowing them to run beyond 2019 as less coaches would need doing). A pair of 185's would only be 62 seats less than a pair of 220's, but would be on every service and there would enough extra units to extend some of the existing services south beyond their current limits (possible the new extensions could run as single units to enable more to run and spread the capacity more evenly over the day)
- the use of any 221's that are released from ICWC
- if enough other capacity could be created then the reforming the 220's into 5 coach units (possible retention of the spare end coaches as 2 coach, standard only which would give you 84 seats, for use as crowd busters through the core, 5+2 units would be 334, so not much less than the 400 of a doubled up 220 with 400 seats). There would have to be enough other units to allow a good number of services to run as 5+5 with the possibility that all the remaining services could run 5+2 over the core (maybe as far south as Basingstoke and as far north as Newcastle, depending on numbers)

XC, although has significant capacity problems, wouldn't need many extra units before they could run quite a few double length services (ignoreing the 9 needed to replace the HST's) 17 would allow all the 220's to always be run in pairs all the time (although less if the outer ends didn't need that much capacity. Likewise if the new units were 5 coach 80x's with 315 seats (equivalent to at least 6 * 22x's) that would increase capacity compared to the existing services (especially 220's).

 

[ABB125]

- if enough other capacity could be created then the reforming the 220's into 5 coach units (possible retention of the spare end coaches as 2 coach, standard only which would give you 84 seats,

That sounds like a fun idea

 

[Mordac]

I'm not aware of any Crosscountry services that are currently that long: Those few services that are doubled up tend to use pairs of 4-car Voyagers, maximum 8 carriages.

I'm pretty sure I've been on a service from Edinburgh to Sheffield operated by a 221+220. Can't remember the time and ultimate destination, though.

 

[Class 170101]

HSTs will be an interim measure from now until the mid 2020s in my view. However Class 68s and DVTs I don't consider a good use of scarce capacity as they are two vehicles not capable of carrying passengers particularly as they could have a life of 30 years.

I favour the AT300 or similar in 9 car lengths for XC.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm pretty sure I've been on a service from Edinburgh to Sheffield operated by a 221+220. Can't remember the time and ultimate destination, though.

As I said above, there are three services a day that run as a doubled up unit, 2 in one direction, 1 in the other - typically a 4+5 passes south through Leeds just after 4pm.

 

[BestWestern]

In many respects 2+2 seat Desiros would make pretty good XC units where they are run under the wires. Capable of 110mph, flexible enough to be run in 4, 8 or 12 car formation. Quiet from a passenger perspective and nice riding.

Quiet? Have you found some with no aircon then?! Aside from the constant noise - and it really is excessive compared to just about everything else - five hours of being blasted by that and you'd be treating trainloads of people for hypothermia!

Desiro stock also boasts rock solid seating, and in the case of end doors ( and we really do not want intercity trains with suburban 1/3 & 2/3 doors ), absolutely no provision for luggage space whatsoever. The 444s in the summer are the perfect example of the compromise of running commuter spec stock on a holiday route. Nowhere for suitcases, nowhere for buggies, uncomfortable seats, no thanks! They could perhaps be tweaked, but it would be a very different design to what we currently call a Desiro. They also don't make them any more!

 

[Haydn1971]

Likewise if the new units were 5 coach 80x's with 315 seats (equivalent to at least 6 * 22x's) that would increase capacity compared to the existing services (especially 220's).

This is a very important point, XC needs more seats but doesn't need nine car 802s, that would simply kill the financial case of XC.

The current 220/221 have 200-250ish seats per 4/5 car unit, reforming these as longer units could give up to 320 seats as a six car unit, up to 390 seats as a seven car unit or preferably around 400 seats as a eight car unit with some additional first, a few extra desperately needed table seats, an extra inch of legroom for the airline seats, a rethink of the storage arrangements to give more storage in the actual passenger cab, removing the underused isolated racks, a rethink of the toilet arrangements and comms upgrades so passengers can use there own comms onboard.

This would provide a good baseline fleet for XC, supplemented by a fleet of initially five car 802 bi-modes, with circa 325-340 seats, which options to add extra carriages towards the rear end of the next franchise pushing seating up above 400 seats in a six car unit or higher if necessary.

Clearly the 802s would be needed first to allow the 220/221s to be reformed and refurbished.

 

[D6975]

(possible retention of the spare end coaches as 2 coach, standard only which would give you 84 seats, for use as crowd busters through the core

This isn't possible, as has been pointed out previously. Some essential equipment is in one of the middle coaches. This is why the 2 spare 221 ends are stored at 3 Rivers rather than in traffic.

 

[najaB]

This isn't possible, as has been pointed out previously. Some essential equipment is in one of the middle coaches.

They don't have air compressors for the brakes, IIRC. So they could run, they just couldn't stop!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

This isn't possible, as has been pointed out previously. Some essential equipment is in one of the middle coaches. This is why the 2 spare 221 ends are stored at 3 Rivers rather than in traffic.

How large is that essential equipment? Is it something that could be moved inside, maybe sacrificing a couple of seats?

 

[najaB]

How large is that essential equipment? Is it something that could be moved inside, maybe sacrificing a couple of seats?

Have a read of this thread.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm sure this has been answered in other threads, but how bad in the congestion through the core? How plausible would it be to run more core-only services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How large is that essential equipment? Is it something that could be moved inside, maybe sacrificing a couple of seats?

Anything is achievable - it's just whether the cost is worthwhile. I suspect VT would have little or no use for a running 2-car unit, and they *do* have a use for a static one, both for nicking parts from it and as a training centre as I believe it is used.

After all, new DMUs were "unachievable", and a huge fleet of them has just been ordered. If the price is right...

 

[Jd12]

How large is that essential equipment? Is it something that could be moved inside, maybe sacrificing a couple of seats?

One of the driving cars currently has a compressor fitted to allow it to run around under its own power within the depot. If cross country get a franchise renewal they're on about reforming their 221's and donate 2 coaches to 144 to create 3 x4 car 221's (without tilt)

 

[ABB125]

I'm sure this has been answered in other threads, but how bad in the congestion through the core? How plausible would it be to run more core-only services?

I'm not sure about congestion, (I expect it's quite bad) but I would have thought it would be quite simple to attach a second unit to all Bristol-Manchester trains. Once it arrives at New Street, as long as there is a platform long enough for 3 voyagers, the Reading-Newcastle service could arrive at the other end of the platform. The unit in the middle would then uncouple from the train to Manchester, move a few metres, and attach to the train to Newcastle. It could stay attached maybe as far as Sheffield, where it would wait for the next train south. This would happen in both directions. Only if there are enough units though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Something like this?

(Train in question is a SBB IC2000, not my photo)

To be honest, if it's soundproofed I don't care!

 

[The Ham]

This isn't possible, as has been pointed out previously. Some essential equipment is in one of the middle coaches. This is why the 2 spare 221 ends are stored at 3 Rivers rather than in traffic.

I'd forgotten that.
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One of the driving cars currently has a compressor fitted to allow it to run around under its own power within the depot. If cross country get a franchise renewal they're on about reforming their 221's and donate 2 coaches to 144 to create 3 x4 car 221's (without tilt)

Although I can see the advantage of having an extra unit, the cost of terms of two other units running as 4 coach units rather than 5 coach units could be a difficult sell. Unless the extra unit allows enough doubling up of units on busy services.

 

[E_Reeves]

Power car on each end so carriages are quieter, but have 220/221 style carriages. A mix up of a HST and a Voyager really...

 

[J-2739]

Power car on each end so carriages are quieter, but have 220/221 style carriages. A mix up of a HST and a Voyager really...

Could have rather slow acceleration and since there are many stops on the Cross Country route quite close, that could be a bit...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 220s nearly *were* 67-hauled LHCS, but with the same bodies as 221s.