Any information on the Bi-modes for the East Anglia franchise?.

[najaB]

As far as I'm aware, NR haven't ever explicitly come out against articulated stock, it's just that there haven't really been any proposals for it up to now because all of the manufacturers have used conventional designs that already existed

Though a factor in that may well be the fact that the track access charges will be higher - so any advantages in ride quality are outweighed by higher running costs.

 

[themiller]

I've just been on the Stadlerrail website http://stadlerrail.com/en/ and there's no mention of an Abellio order whilst a later order for GySEV for only 10 FLIRTs is there in the news section. Has the UK order been put on hold for some reason?

 

[WatcherZero]

Not actually been signed yet. Similar with TPE framchise was a few months before one of the orders were signed.

 

[Mordac]

Not only that, but the TPE orders still aren't on the CAF website, other than as press releases.

 

[themiller]

Not only that, but the TPE orders still aren't on the CAF website, other than as press releases.

http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=280
The CAF trains for Arriva are on the CAF site, now.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If the Stadler 4 car units are anything like what has been offered to another franchise bidder they will be what we old ER types call a quin-art, five vehicles, all articulated with the very short walk through diesel power car as the middle car

The outer driving vehicles will be longer than the inner ones and all four passenger cars will have one door per side only. One dance hall bog per unit and total seats approx 200.

Personally speaking, I'm a fan of the concept and can't wait to see them in the UK.

 

[themiller]

If the Stadler 4 car units are anything like what has been offered to another franchise bidder they will be what we old ER types call a quin-art, five vehicles, all articulated with the very short walk through diesel power car as the middle car

The outer driving vehicles will be longer than the inner ones and all four passenger cars will have one door per side only. One dance hall bog per unit and total seats approx 200.

Personally speaking, I'm a fan of the concept and can't wait to see them in the UK.

One of the reasons for the power module is that the FLIRT design has so far been a low-floor design so there's been no room under the floor for any equipment such as a power pack in the original GTW design. The UK version will be a high-floor design so may have the power train underneath so obviating the need for a separate power module and so appear more like the SBB class 52x EMUs for example. These later units have 2 doors per side on each vehicle rather than the one door on the early GTW units.

 

[47802]

I've just been on the Stadlerrail website http://stadlerrail.com/en/ and there's no mention of an Abellio order whilst a later order for GySEV for only 10 FLIRTs is there in the news section. Has the UK order been put on hold for some reason?

Info on WNXX suggesting Siemens may looking at a legal challenge to the Bombardier part of the order so things may go very quiet until that is resolved.

That may also suggest that the Dft had a hand in the tendering process perhaps at least for the Bombardier Order.

 

[Mordac]

http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=280
The CAF trains for Arriva are on the CAF site, now.

That's why I said TPE, not Northern.

 

[Alfie1014]

There are suggestions that the UK 'Flirt' will be launced at Innotrans later this month, details rather than anything substantial.

 

[J-2739]

There are suggestions that the UK 'Flirt' will be launced at Innotrans later this month, details rather than anything substantial.

Are you sure you're not confusing that with the loco's they're showing? I fell into that same trick earlier...

 

[themiller]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...stock-deal-since-privatisation-is-signed.html
The second last paragraph indicates that the contract has not yet been signed for the Stadler units but is expected imminently!

 

[47802]

Interesting that possible action by Siemens now seems to have been sorted and the Bombardier part of the deal has been signed. sorry yes that's a bit of topic with regard to the flirt units.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sounds like a compromise was reached, possibly some 'compensation' changed hands in order for Siemens to feel happy.

Angel and Abellio have been milking the £900m as 'the largest rolling stock deal since privatisation' which I'm not sure it is since the Crossrail rolling stock contract was £1bn and the Thameslink fleet although also including Depots and maintenance was £1.6bn.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Angel and Abellio have been milking the £900m as 'the largest rolling stock deal since privatisation' which I'm not sure it is since the Crossrail rolling stock contract was £1bn and the Thameslink fleet although also including Depots and maintenance was £1.6bn.

Maybe the nicety here is that the Crossrail and Thameslink contracts (and IEP for that matter) were placed by public bodies (DfT/TfL), whereas this one is a wholly private deal.
The original Pendolino order (Virgin/Angel/Alstom) must also have been of a similar size.

 

[47802]

Maybe the nicety here is that the Crossrail and Thameslink contracts (and IEP for that matter) were placed by public bodies (DfT/TfL), whereas this one is a wholly private deal.
The original Pendolino order (Virgin/Angel/Alstom) must also have been of a similar size.

Although was the Bombardier part of the order actually a private deal though or did the DFT have some part in it? Would Siemens potentially challenge a wholly private deal? and there seemed to be mutterings that the Bombardier part of the deal would go ahead whoever won the franchise.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Siemens are well able to secure orders from other countries who would like delivery of proven, well built reliable modern rolling stock and their order book is not exactly empty over the next few years, so it's no water off their backs really, they're not going to spend huge amounts of money fighting that kind of battle even if they have just cause to do so because the UK is not going to be importance to them that much going forward;.

At the end of the day they know that once Brexit happens it will not be a positive change for them since it will allow orders to be put through by politicians who would like to make political gain out of them and instead of wasting their efforts on a UK market where they're likely to have a much smaller part in a post brexit country,. they'll probably just put the effort into countries who view quality as more important than nationality.

Of course, if the UK voted remain, it might be a very different story and I'd be curious when the decision to pick Bombardier was made, after the vote or before it.

 

[47802]

Siemens are well able to secure orders from other countries who would like delivery of proven, well built reliable modern rolling stock and their order book is not exactly empty over the next few years, so it's no water off their backs really, they're not going to spend huge amounts of money fighting that kind of battle even if they have just cause to do so because the UK is not going to be importance to them that much going forward;.

At the end of the day they know that once Brexit happens it will not be a positive change for them since it will allow orders to be put through by politicians who would like to make political gain out of them and instead of wasting their efforts on a UK market where they're likely to have a much smaller part in a post brexit country,. they'll probably just put the effort into countries who view quality as more important than nationality.

Of course, if the UK voted remain, it might be a very different story and I'd be curious when the decision to pick Bombardier was made, after the vote or before it.

Well all of the above may or may not be true, but it wasn't really my point, my point being as whether this was a decision made by the franchise winner or was the DFT involved in it?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well all of the above may or may not be true, but it wasn't really my point, my point being as whether this was a decision made by the franchise winner or was the DFT involved in it?

Abellio are happy with Bombardier stock.

Abellio are the winner of the franchise.

 

[Mikey C]

Siemens are well able to secure orders from other countries who would like delivery of proven, well built reliable modern rolling stock and their order book is not exactly empty over the next few years, so it's no water off their backs really, they're not going to spend huge amounts of money fighting that kind of battle even if they have just cause to do so because the UK is not going to be importance to them that much going forward;.

At the end of the day they know that once Brexit happens it will not be a positive change for them since it will allow orders to be put through by politicians who would like to make political gain out of them and instead of wasting their efforts on a UK market where they're likely to have a much smaller part in a post brexit country,. they'll probably just put the effort into countries who view quality as more important than nationality.

Of course, if the UK voted remain, it might be a very different story and I'd be curious when the decision to pick Bombardier was made, after the vote or before it.

Brexit will make little difference to whether Siemens bids for UK work or not

The UK has been a massive rail market for Siemens in the last 10 years, and I'm sure they'll want a piece of the HS2 action

 

[F Great Eastern]

The UK has been a massive rail market for Siemens in the last 10 years, and I'm sure they'll want a piece of the HS2 action

It has but that was because they always had a fair crack of the whip at winning contracts as EU law required them to have in relation to tendering not because they have some romantic love for the UK.

Every time now a rolling stock tender goes up Bombardier will complain they will go out of business if they do not get it and political demand will ensure that they get it since politicans can't resist playing politics with these things.

Personally I'm all for ensuring the best rolling stock is ordered regardless of where it is built. It is nonsense to suggest we should buy British* just because it's British and that kind of attitude will lead to a very dangerous place in this country and will result in far less innovation and lower standards.

 

[Mikey C]

It has but that was because they always had a fair crack of the whip at winning contracts as EU law required them to have in relation to tendering not because they have some romantic love for the UK.

Every time now a rolling stock tender goes up Bombardier will complain they will go out of business if they do not get it and political demand will ensure that they get it since politicans can't resist playing politics with these things.

Personally I'm all for ensuring the best rolling stock is ordered regardless of where it is built. It is nonsense to suggest we should buy British* just because it's British and that kind of attitude will lead to a very dangerous place in this country and will result in far less innovation and lower standards.

Where's the evidence for this?

Bombardier have won ONE order since the Brexit announcement, and so did the completely non British Stadler.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Abellio are happy with Bombardier stock.
Abellio are the winner of the franchise.

Abellio are also "happy" with Hitachi, having ordered the 385s for Scotrail.
But Bombardier may have been the only manufacturer who could deliver in the timeframe (whoever won the franchise).

 

[gg1]

If this does go ahead I wouldn't be surprised if the Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted services are transferred to the next Anglia franchise, they'd be ideal candidates for bi-modes.

 

[306024]

If this does go ahead I wouldn't be surprised if the Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted services are transferred to the next Anglia franchise, they'd be ideal candidates for bi-modes.

I wouldn't be surprised either, I'd be stunned. Whatever the traction, putting Liverpool and Birmingham into an East Anglia franchise doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[grumblingalong]

If this does go ahead I wouldn't be surprised if the Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted services are transferred to the next Anglia franchise, they'd be ideal candidates for bi-modes.

No plans for this at all, even taking over the Norwich-Peterborough leg of the Lime St. service, not happening.

 

[najaB]

Bombardier have won ONE order since the Brexit announcement, and so did the completely non British Stadler.

Remember, the rules haven't changed yet and likely won't until 2019.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Bombardier have won ONE order since the Brexit announcement, and so did the completely non British Stadler.

According to what I've heard Stadler were picked because of the time that they could deliver and the price they offered and they wanted to expand in certain areas to help them become a more major player in the European rolling stock market.

Do you really think Siemens would randomly decide they were going to take legal action just because they were bad losers or because there was something in it? Siemens don't exactly have a track record of crying wolf about this kind of thing, unlike Bombardier.

It's quite obvious they realised early on that they were going to stonewalled so they came to a mutual agreement with Abellio to call off the action which probably involved some payment and Abellio making some kind comments about Siemens and Siemens would just focus on other markets.

 

[edwin_m]

If this does go ahead I wouldn't be surprised if the Liverpool-Norwich and Birmingham-Stansted services are transferred to the next Anglia franchise, they'd be ideal candidates for bi-modes.

Liverpool-Norwich running "under the wires" is limited to Liverpool to South Parkway, Trafford Park to Hazel Grove and Grantham to Peterborough, plus little bits around Ely and Norwich. Doesn't sound worth dragging the extra weight of a bi-mode around for.

 

[Domh245]

Liverpool-Norwich running "under the wires" is limited to Liverpool to South Parkway, Trafford Park to Hazel Grove and Grantham to Peterborough, plus little bits around Ely and Norwich. Doesn't sound worth dragging the extra weight of a bi-mode around for.

By the time of the next Anglia franchise it'd also include Nottingham to Sheffield as well, wouldn't it? You could also look into diverting it via Rainhill (swapping it for one of the new Northern DMUs which could run in it's place via Warrington) to maximise time under the wires.