Class 387

[swt_passenger]

Did you happen to get the numbers ?

387301 and 302, reported elsewhere.

 

[03_179]

387301 and 302, reported elsewhere.

Thanks, They usually go DFL at Selhurst but actually DSL so I managed to get them easily.

 

[87015]

East Ham delivery paths in for tonight and tomorrow although I feel they've been out today that seems optimistic. Murmurs the modelling has said they can't keep to 357 times though

 

[Class 170101]

Murmurs the modelling has said they can't keep to 357 times though

That seems somewhat unlikely. If it is true then :roll:

 

[superalbs]

I always thought that the new build electrostars had super-powerful motors then made them accelerate faster.

 

[leomartin125]

I always thought that the new build electrostars had super-powerful motors then made them accelerate faster.

I was speaking to a GWR Driver who said he had driven the new 387's for GWR and he got an eight car set to 40mph (line speed) before reaching the end of the platform at Paddington, so I highly doubt they would be underperforming...

 

[Deepgreen]

Surely the 387/3s have the same 2,000+hp as the 387/2s? BTW, two were heading north through Purley yesterday afternoon - are they delivered to Three Bridges? I couldn't immediately understand why they might be training/mileage accumulating on the third rail when they are to be C2C units.
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I was speaking to a GWR Driver who said he had driven the new 387's for GWR and he got an eight car set to 40mph (line speed) before reaching the end of the platform at Paddington, so I highly doubt they would be underperforming...

That was leaving the station I assume?! That is akin to a light-rail standard of acceleration.

 

[swt_passenger]

I couldn't immediately understand why they might be training/mileage accumulating on the third rail when they are to be C2C units.

People queried that about the GWR 387/1s too, but it is what happened, and these are another follow-on order of the same train. They seem to be using identical mileage accumulation paths from Bombardier's out-base in Bletchley TMD, prior to delivery to the TOC. Three Bridges is not involved, other than as a passing point en route.

They are supposedly only with c2c for a relatively short time, so DC operation in the future remains possible, even if unlikely.

 

[W230]

I was speaking to a GWR Driver who said he had driven the new 387's for GWR and he got an eight car set to 40mph (line speed) before reaching the end of the platform at Paddington, so I highly doubt they would be underperforming...

Doubt it. How long are the platforms at Paddington - 12 cars? As far as I am aware TOCs stipulate a speed of no more 15mph leaving dead end platforms (TL, Southern, GN, SE all do anyway ). I'd be surprised if he got 40mph or even tried to. They are quick though.

 

[Class377/5]

East Ham delivery paths in for tonight and tomorrow although I feel they've been out today that seems optimistic. Murmurs the modelling has said they can't keep to 357 times though

Sorry but I cannot see how this is anything other than gossip. The 387s out perform the 357/377 fleet so timings are is not an issue.

What may actually be the issue is train length where more 12 cars means slightly longer time between trains needed (extra time to do clear longer platforms, longer to clear junctions) but this would only cause minor issues on the route the 387s will be used.

As for testing on 3rd rail lands, the ROSCO has brought a DV train so Bombardier must actually commission the train to prove they work as advertised.

 

[Deepgreen]

Doubt it. How long are the platforms at Paddington - 12 cars? As far as I am aware TOCs stipulate a speed of no more 15mph leaving dead end platforms (TL, Southern, GN, SE all do anyway ). I'd be surprised if he got 40mph or even tried to. They are quick though.

Assuming that driver who claimed to have reached 40mph by the end of the platform was referring to his (front) cab (otherwise how would he know that the rear cab had reached the platform end?), that means that the train went from 0 to 40mph in about 4 car lengths - wow; hold on tightly please!

 

[tsr]

As far as I am aware TOCs stipulate a speed of no more 15mph leaving dead end platforms (TL, Southern, GN, SE all do anyway ).

I'm pretty sure it's 20mph for Southern at a number of locations (that, or all the speedos are wrong...!).

Assuming that driver who claimed to have reached 40mph by the end of the platform was referring to his (front) cab (otherwise how would he know that the rear cab had reached the platform end?), that means that the train went from 0 to 40mph in about 4 car lengths - wow; hold on tightly please!

Well, you have to know where the rear of the train is positioned when accounting for the speed of the whole of the train being in accordance with the location of speed restrictions, so that bit wouldn't surprise me. But 40mph does sound somewhat unusual anyway.

 

[JN114]

Leo is correct in that the Linespeed in/out of most platforms at Paddington is 40mph, although with professional driving you won't enter the platform at anything near that.

As to whether an 8 car can hit 40 by the end of the platform? I'm not so convinced, as that only leaves about 100m to get up to that speed - some simplistic time/distance calculations but it as 0 - 40 in ~ 8 seconds, which is much faster than even any current tube stock will accelerate.

I can believe 40mph with the rear of the train still in the platform however. Perhaps that's what this driver meant. HEX have been able to reach line speed out of Paddington with the rear of the train still platformed for many years.

 

[KT530]

Doubt it. How long are the platforms at Paddington - 12 cars? As far as I am aware TOCs stipulate a speed of no more 15mph leaving dead end platforms (TL, Southern, GN, SE all do anyway ). I'd be surprised if he got 40mph or even tried to. They are quick though.

Can confirm GWR do too. Although 40 might be the line speed, it would be inappropriate considering the curvature of track and passenger comfort, not to mention the squeel from the wheels at that speed.

 

[D365]

Even if it was an ECS movement, I doubt that would have been appropriate.

 

[samuelmorris]

From my recollections 357s do 0-40 in around 30 seconds in normal use, and that's probably not their maximum - applying some basic maths, that works out at an acceleration distance of 268m, so only slightly longer than a 'full-length' station platform. I think it sounds plausible.

 

[RobShipway]

There is a video on Youtube, which is not mine I hasten to add which is why I have not added a link for it of 387202 and 387303 passing through Clapham Junction today.

 

[Goldfish62]

Doubt it. How long are the platforms at Paddington - 12 cars? As far as I am aware TOCs stipulate a speed of no more 15mph leaving dead end platforms (TL, Southern, GN, SE all do anyway ). I'd be surprised if he got 40mph or even tried to. They are quick though.

Why is that, out of interest? I can understand a controlled low speed when approaching the buffer stops, but not when moving away from them.

 

[JN114]

Can confirm GWR do too. Although 40 might be the line speed, it would be inappropriate considering the curvature of track and passenger comfort, not to mention the squeel from the wheels at that speed.

Can you confirm where this instruction can actually be found? It's not in the current issue of the professional driving policy or GWR appendix to rulebook. I've been on a number of cab rides out of Paddington where we've been doing more than 15mph out of the platform aswell, so it would appear a number of drivers aren't aware of this instruction either.

 

[Domh245]

Why is that, out of interest? I can understand a controlled low speed when approaching the buffer stops, but not when moving away from them.

At a guess, leaving a terminal platform would usually involve traversing some points, which tend to be <=20mph, so you wouldn't want your drivers accelerating to 40 and then potentially forgetting to brake back down again?

 

[JN114]

At a guess, leaving a terminal platform would usually involve traversing some points, which tend to be <=20mph, so you wouldn't want your drivers accelerating to 40 and then potentially forgetting to brake back down again?

The only route coming out of Paddington where the speed limit drops to lower than the speed limit in the platform is coming out of Platform 1 (40mph) onto the Link line into Royal Oak Sdgs (25mph). So that's not a factor in this circumstance.

 

[W230]

Why is that, out of interest? I can understand a controlled low speed when approaching the buffer stops, but not when moving away from them.

To be quite honest - I don't know why! Obviously 15mph in makes sense but why going out I don't get it?! And why just for dead end platforms? Anyway that's what we've been told. So at Brighton, Blackfriars (P3/4) and London Bridge for me, it's that long crawl out...

 

[swt_passenger]

Just had a quick comparison of the relevant online sectional appendices, and it is immediately apparent that the Paddington throat is a much faster set up overall than a typical SE terminus. The majority of platform line speed limits are shown as 40 mph. The high numbered platforms being the main exceptions.

Perhaps the last resignalling was optimised for HSTs, if the entire throat is stretched out along the route, and as is fairly well known there is a 6 track approach to Paddington, then the sorting out onto the down main and down relief can take place over a longer distance.

 

[Deepgreen]

Leo is correct in that the Linespeed in/out of most platforms at Paddington is 40mph, although with professional driving you won't enter the platform at anything near that.

As to whether an 8 car can hit 40 by the end of the platform? I'm not so convinced, as that only leaves about 100m to get up to that speed - some simplistic time/distance calculations but it as 0 - 40 in ~ 8 seconds, which is much faster than even any current tube stock will accelerate.

I can believe 40mph with the rear of the train still in the platform however. Perhaps that's what this driver meant. HEX have been able to reach line speed out of Paddington with the rear of the train still platformed for many years.

Is Paddington unique, then, in having such a high speed limit when entering platforms (notwithstanding how often it is achieved)? At all the London termini I use, the speed limit seems to be about 10mph when entering the platforms, dropping to about 5 nearer the buffers. hence the interminable crawl to the 'stops. To be able to hit the platforms at 40mph would be very refreshing!

 

[JN114]

Is Paddington unique, then, in having such a high speed limit when entering platforms (notwithstanding how often it is achieved)? At all the London termini I use, the speed limit seems to be about 10mph when entering the platforms, dropping to about 5 nearer the buffers. hence the interminable crawl to the 'stops. To be able to hit the platforms at 40mph would be very refreshing!

The answer is in my original post - It's TOC professional driving policies that reduce buffer stop approaches to a crawl. In practical terms even at Paddington you enter the platform below 15mph. These high linespeeds for termini is not for the benefit of arrivals but for the benefit of departures. I believe Euston is also 40mph after the early 2000s remodelling, but it's not a route I have any professional involvement with so my knowledge is limited. As for others, 20, 25 seems to be the norm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just had a quick comparison of the relevant online sectional appendices, and it is immediately apparent that the Paddington throat is a much faster set up overall than a typical SE terminus. The majority of platform line speed limits are shown as 40 mph. The high numbered platforms being the main exceptions.

Perhaps the last resignalling was optimised for HSTs, if the entire throat is stretched out along the route, and as is fairly well known there is a 6 track approach to Paddington, then the sorting out onto the down main and down relief can take place over a longer distance.

As it was originally resignalled in the early 90s was principally designed to benefit the then planned Heathrow Express service. Post Ladbroke Grove there was a few tweaks to signalling and linespeed with the fundamental aim of making the layout easier for drivers to understand what they were doing and where they were going.

 

[Class377/5]

To be quite honest - I don't know why! Obviously 15mph in makes sense but why going out I don't get it?! And why just for dead end platforms? Anyway that's what we've been told. So at Brighton, Blackfriars (P3/4) and London Bridge for me, it's that long crawl out...

It depends on the infrastructure. If NR has built the track for a certain speed then that's the limit is one reason. Another could be keeping it simple for drivers, Brighton for example can have some more extreme moves with platforms 3 to 7 all having the same route to the Up line for example, so rather then have complex rules that change on every platform on each possible route, a simple limit for all makes far more sense. Ond on Bridge is complex hence the problem and Blackfriars may simply be it's designed as a low speed, high frequency stretch of track.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be quite honest - I don't know why! Obviously 15mph in makes sense but why going out I don't get it?! And why just for dead end platforms? Anyway that's what we've been told. So at Brighton, Blackfriars (P3/4) and London Bridge for me, it's that long crawl out...

To be quite honest - it's a bonkers policy. And not one applied by every TOC, which makes it even more frustrating that Southern* (in particular) apply it at the busiest and most congested terminii where it unquestionably eats into capacity and causes performance issues. All the terminal platforms at London Bridge are fit for 20mph (indeed they are actually fit for 25mph, except for a theoretical Start against Danger SPAD risk), and yet drivers are instructed to trundle in and out. Trains should be driven to the permitted linespeed unless otherwise instructed by the signalling.

* from memory, FCC didn't have this policy. Has it now been 'copied' across from Southern to the rest of GTR?

 

[southern442]

I seem to remember coming into Paddington at a surprisingly fast speed on an HST once. As far as slow speeds going out of stations, several other TOC's like South West Trains seem to be quite bad for that too.

 

[theageofthetra]

The TPWS overspeed will trigger at over 10mph at the termini I sign leading to the inevitable meeting without biscuits

 

[387star]

Not strictly regarding 387s but their cousin the 377 however rather than start a new thread...

I noticed today the 377/7 and 377/6 that were making a rare visit down the arun valley line on the Brighton diversions were displaying 'welcome to class 377' first time I have seen this... I have noticed 'Electrostar' before

As far as I know this is not driver led and merely a default setting for the screens

I wonder how many passengers understood what it meant