Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Carlisle]

The railway must have an official definition of what DCO actually is. :

Its how the Javelins operate, unless anyone knows different

 

[plymothian]

DCO - Driver Controlled Operation - is a bodge name which has come out recently to make it sound better than DOO(P), even though they are essentially the same. Under DCO the driver has complete control and authority over the train, but a second member of staff will be onboard where practical. This member of staff does not take part in dispatch nor is necessarily safety critical.

The term DCO became widespread from the GWR IEPs and their ability to run without a train manager, with the driver controlling the doors at all times - it's not a DOO train, it's "DCO".

 

[sarahj]

Well looks like the next section to go DOO will be the Arun Valley line. Should be interesting as the strange weather conditions on this line can be fun. Last week the fog/mist was so thick that the in cab CCTV monitors were just a blur of white.

Other odd things as well. When your assist we have been told not to look out in case it confuses the dispatch staff. So the other day on assist we were at Three Bridges, and we sat, and sat. I'm not able to look and and see why, and unable to put my key on and say something over the PA. Seems we were waiting for dispatch. Another 3 mins lost in the rush hour.

 

[notadriver]

DCO - Driver Controlled Operation - is a bodge name which has come out recently to make it sound better than DOO(P), even though they are essentially the same. Under DCO the driver has complete control and authority over the train, but a second member of staff will be onboard where practical. This member of staff does not take part in dispatch nor is necessarily safety critical.

The term DCO became widespread from the GWR IEPs and their ability to run without a train manager, with the driver controlling the doors at all times - it's not a DOO train, it's "DCO".

The Javelins are unable to run without a train manager except for ECS moves so what kind of DCO are they ?


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[JonathanH]

Well looks like the next section to go DOO will be the Arun Valley line. Should be interesting as the strange weather conditions on this line can be fun. Last week the fog/mist was so thick that the in cab CCTV monitors were just a blur of white.

Other odd things as well. When your assist we have been told not to look out in case it confuses the dispatch staff. So the other day on assist we were at Three Bridges, and we sat, and sat. I'm not able to look and and see why, and unable to put my key on and say something over the PA. Seems we were waiting for dispatch. Another 3 mins lost in the rush hour.

That is ridiculous. Would a passenger confuse the dispatcher if they stood by the door like a guard? I think that, if possible, the natural place for the OBS is by the door so they know what is going on and they are visible to anyone who needs them. Far easier for a passenger to look out of the door onto the platform and see someone by the door than to walk through the train to find the OBS. Perhaps it is a cynical move to make the role look as if it has no purpose which isn't what the rhetoric says. Based on what I have seen at Redhill, the platform staff at each station should have lists of what is now running DOO.

 

[BestWestern]

The Javelins are unable to run without a train manager except for ECS moves so what kind of DCO are they ?

Are they physically unable to run, or is there merely an agreement that they won't? One is considerably less meaningful than the other!

If a Guard has any form of authority over dispatch arrangements, then they are not DCO. If the Driver controls everything unaided, then they are DCO. Which, in turn, is DOO from an operational perspective.

 

[notadriver]

Are they physically unable to run, or is there merely an agreement that they won't? One is considerably less meaningful than the other!

If a Guard has any form of authority over dispatch arrangements, then they are not DCO. If the Driver controls everything unaided, then they are DCO. Which, in turn, is DOO from an operational perspective.

It is an agreement but for they must have one on and the service will be cancelled if one isn't available. Whilst the driver does have full control of the doors, should the train manager call ahead for revenue protection assistance or the BTP etc the train is normally held until the train manager confirms it is safe to move.


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[Astradyne]

And if you, or a family member, were involved in an accident or incident which incapacitated the driver, and turned to the guard for assistance ... but you were on one of the 5% ... ?

And if that guard happens to be 6+ coaches away ... what use will be .... none!

 

[Chester1]

And if you, or a family member, were involved in an accident or incident which incapacitated the driver, and turned to the guard for assistance ... but you were on one of the 5% ... ?

I use Manchester Metrolink on a near daily basis. When I lived in London I used the Underground reguarly. They are considered safe enough to run permenantly without guards therefore I would be comfortable not having an OBS 5% the time.

 

[swt class 450]

Well looks like the next section to go DOO will be the Arun Valley line. Should be interesting as the strange weather conditions on this line can be fun. Last week the fog/mist was so thick that the in cab CCTV monitors were just a blur of white.

Other odd things as well. When your assist we have been told not to look out in case it confuses the dispatch staff. So the other day on assist we were at Three Bridges, and we sat, and sat. I'm not able to look and and see why, and unable to put my key on and say something over the PA. Seems we were waiting for dispatch. Another 3 mins lost in the rush hour.

That is just rediculous! Are OBS allowed to look out at unstaffed stations? I am fully against DOO but i think if they are going to continue with there plans to introduce OBS than at least Southern should make it a requirement that OBS should look out the doors at each station (especially unstaffed stations) to check if there are any wheelchair users who are waiting to board or if anyone requires any assistance.

One of their management Guards even told me that OBS will not be required to look out of the doors at each stop and that they can continue to check and sell tickets while the train is stopping at stations. So unfortunately it looks like it is going to become a lot harder for wheelchair users to use Southern trains.

Also i see that Southern are trying to keep it very quiet from the public when more sections of routes go DOO. They never have anything on their website about it.

That is ridiculous. Would a passenger confuse the dispatcher if they stood by the door like a guard? I think that, if possible, the natural place for the OBS is by the door so they know what is going on and they are visible to anyone who needs them. Far easier for a passenger to look out of the door onto the platform and see someone by the door than to walk through the train to find the OBS. Perhaps it is a cynical move to make the role look as if it has no purpose which isn't what the rhetoric says. Based on what I have seen at Redhill, the platform staff at each station should have lists of what is now running DOO.

I was speaking to a train dispatcher at Gatwick Airport a few days ago who said that nowadays it is so chaotic and that they often dont know if a train has a Guard or if it is DOO until the train arrives in to the station

 

[Fincra5]

I use Manchester Metrolink on a near daily basis. When I lived in London I used the Underground reguarly. They are considered safe enough to run permenantly without guards therefore I would be comfortable not having an OBS 5% the time.

Completely different kettle of fish. Comparing a metro network with stations regularly (a lot of which on LUL are staffed) to a network out in the countryside with level crossing, unstaffed stations, footcrossing/ Occupational Corssings (with farm vehicles).

 

[Chester1]

Completely different kettle of fish. Comparing a metro network with stations regularly (a lot of which on LUL are staffed) to a network out in the countryside with level crossing, unstaffed stations, footcrossing/ Occupational Corssings (with farm vehicles).

Most Metrolink stations are unstaffed, it has a couple of rural sections and plenty of road crossing that are far below heavy rail standard. How has Thameslink dealt with the issues you have mentioned?

 

[Fincra5]

Most Metrolink stations are unstaffed, it has a couple of rural sections and plenty of road crossing that are far below heavy rail standard. How has Thameslink dealt with the issues you have mentioned?

Metrolink also consists of trams. Running in shorter formations with less passengers etc, etc.

Down in sussex TLK doesn't branch off the Mainline. Where most stations are staffed and the larger stations have dispatch. There also aren't as many footpath crossing nor OCC.

There also isn't a single levelcrossing between Brighton and London. Not sure beyond as I don't sign it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Also i see that Southern are trying to keep it very quiet from the public when more sections of routes go DOO. They never have anything on their website about it.

Not really sure why anybody would expect a train company to put such information on their website.

 

[thelem]

I was speaking to a train dispatcher at Gatwick Airport a few days ago who said that nowadays it is so chaotic and that they often dont know if a train has a Guard or if it is DOO until the train arrives in to the station

Why is there a mixture? I thought it was based on destination, which the platform staff would be aware of.

 

[infobleep]

Not really sure why anybody would expect a train company to put such information on their website.

To promote how they are improving things for passengers in spite of the nasty guards trying to stop them.

I'm not saying the guards are nasty. Just trying to see it from the Govia spin view point.

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[swt class 450]

Not really sure why anybody would expect a train company to put such information on their website.

Im sure that there are lots of passengers who will want to know. This whole DOO and OBS situation is a major thing for both staff and passengers so the more information the better.

Why is there a mixture? I thought it was based on destination, which the platform staff would be aware of.

Yes i believe there is a mixture. Some still have a Guard and some are DOO. Im not quite sure which ones though. I think it is also mainly down to bad communication.

To promote how they are improving things for passengers in spite of the nasty guards trying to stop them.

I'm not saying the guards are nasty. Just trying to see it from the Govia spin view point.

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They seem to really like promoting all this propaganda rubbish about how and why DOO and OBS is better so im not sure why they dont like promoting when routes become DOO.

 

[Antman]

Im sure that there are lots of passengers who will want to know. This whole DOO and OBS situation is a major thing for both staff and passengers so the more information the better.



Yes i believe there is a mixture. Some still have a Guard and some are DOO. Im not quite sure which ones though. I think it is also mainly down to bad communication.



They seem to really like promoting all this propaganda rubbish about how and why DOO and OBS is better so im not sure why they dont like promoting when routes become DOO.

I don't think most passengers know or care whether there is a guard on board.

 

[notadriver]

I don't think most passengers know or care whether there is a guard on board.

I disagree that they don't care based upon my experiences.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you like so many other bus drivers i encounter have such an anti-railway staff attitude.


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[Antman]

I disagree that they don't care based upon my experiences.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you like so many other bus drivers i encounter have such an anti-railway staff attitude.


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I can assure you that I do not have an anti railway staff agenda, indeed I have friends and family members in the industry.

If you ask passengers if they want a guard of not they will say yes until you point out that in the absence of the guard the train gets cancelled.

 

[Fincra5]

I don't think most passengers know or care whether there is a guard on board.

A lot of passengers I have come across often ask if there is a guard onboard. A lot of people down to coastways want tickets or would like assistance.

So yes i'd say a higher proportion would especially if they're used to having one.

 

[Dave1987]

I can assure you that I do not have an anti railway staff agenda, indeed I have friends and family members in the industry.

If you ask passengers if they want a guard of not they will say yes until you point out that in the absence of the guard the train gets cancelled.

Until you point out that a railway company is trying to run the service without enough staff to save money, yet passengers ticket prices don't go down.

 

[NSEFAN]

If you ask passengers if they want a guard of not they will say yes until you point out that in the absence of the guard the train gets cancelled.

Surely it's up to the employer to ensure that sufficient staff are available to run the service? If diagrams are create assuming 100% staff availability then things are bound to go wrong. This would still be the case even under DOO, and given the way GTR is run I don't expect the removal of guards to improve reliability.

 

[Carlisle]

I don't think most passengers know or care whether there is a guard on board.

I think many can see the OBS system working perfectly adequately already on the likes of Gatwick Express,and can't see a huge issue expanding this way of working to many other services

 

[Dave1987]

I think many can see the OBS system working perfectly adequately already on the likes of Gatwick Express,and can't see a huge issue expanding this way of working

So why were they axed before on the Gat Ex then?

 

[infobleep]

I don't think most passengers know or care whether there is a guard on board.

I imagine a lot of people don't care whether there computer data is backed up or not or they take the risk it will be fine.. ... Then they have a hard drive failure.

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I can assure you that I do not have an anti railway staff agenda, indeed I have friends and family members in the industry.

If you ask passengers if they want a guard of not they will say yes until you point out that in the absence of the guard the train gets cancelled.

Then you point out a major crash might occur and there's an absence of a guard and you ask them if they would like a guard then? Finish your paragraph for you. Hope you don't mind.

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[Carlisle]

So why were they axed before on the Gat Ex then?

It's not right but It'll have been a cheap and easy way for the TOC to save a few quid, non DOO TOCs have and still are making onboard staff redundant for very similar reasons

 

[Antman]

I imagine a lot of people don't care whether there computer data is backed up or not or they take the risk it will be fine.. ... Then they have a hard drive failure.

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Then you point out a major crash might occur and there's an absence of a guard and you ask them if they would like a guard then? Finish your paragraph for you. Hope you don't mind.

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And how likely is a major crash? Clutching at straws I'm afraid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think many can see the OBS system working perfectly adequately already on the likes of Gatwick Express,and can't see a huge issue expanding this way of working to many other services

And indeed on the HS1 Javelins and the OBS can interact with passengers without having to dash off to do the doors every few minutes.

 

[notadriver]

And how likely is a major crash? Clutching at straws I'm afraid.

The likelihood of a major plane crash is unlikely as air travel is very safe yet there must be a certain number of staff on board in addition to the flight crew.

I think you're one clutching at straws.


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And indeed on the HS1 Javelins and the OBS can interact with passengers without having to dash off to do the doors every few minutes.

On HS1 the stations are 7, 10 and 20 minutes apart. That's hardly every few minutes.


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[Dave1987]

And how likely is a major crash? Clutching at straws I'm afraid.

I'm utterly speechless at that comment. How likely was it that that embankment at Watford would give way? 99.9% things run smoothly, but in that 0.1% when major accidents happen people are killed or injured if you don't have the right people and safeguards in place. If you are a bus driver you certainly seem to have a very blaise attitude to safety.